So here's my attempt at making the best Rogue I can at level 17. I came into this thinking that Rogue's suck. However I've come to the conclusion (depending on the type of enemy a Rogue is facing) they can actually be comparable to a fighter. This is with a 15 point buy, using the skill point for the favoured class bonus and playing a human.
STR 14 (5) + 6 (belt)
DEX 14+2(5) + 1 (4th) + 1 (8th) + 1 (12th) + 1 (16th) + 6 (belt)
CON 14 (5)
INT 13 (3)
WIS 11 (1)
CHA 7 (-4)
Feats:
Human) Weapon Finesse
Level 1) Two-Weapon Fighting (Dex 15)
Rogue 2) Weapon Focus
Level 3) Skill Focus (Bluff)
Rogue 4) Combat Reflexes
Level 5) Combat Expertise
Level 7) Two-Weapon Feint
Level 9) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (Dex 17)
Rogue 10) Improved Two-Weapon Feint
Level 11) Improved Critical
Level 13) Critical Focus
Level 15) Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (Dex 19)
Level 17) Two-Weapon Rend
Rogue Tricks:
Rogue Trick 2) Weapon Focus
Rogue Trick 4) Combat Feat (Combat Reflexes)
Rogue Trick 6) Minor Magic
Rogue Trick 8) Major Magic
Rogue Trick 12) Opportunist
Rogue Trick 14) Dispelling Attack
Rogue Trick 16) Unwitting Ally
Skills (11 skill points per level):
1) +28 Acrobatics
2) +27 Bluff
3) +21 Diplomacy
4) +30 Disable Device (+38 vs traps)
5) +28 Escape Artist
6) +21 Knowledge (dungeoneering)
7) +21 Knowledge (local)
8) +26 Perception (+34 vs traps)
9) +21 Sense Motive
10) +28 Stealth
11) +21 Use Magic Device
Magic Items:
+5 Short sword
+5 Short sword
+5 Mithral Chain shirt
+4 Amulet of Natural Armor
+4 Ring of Deflection
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
Belt of Physical Might +6
+4 Cloak of Resistance
Boots of Speed
Circlet of Persuasion
Eyes of the Eagle
94,150 gp worth of disposables and mundane equipment
AC: 35; Touch AC: 22; Flat-Footed AC: 28
HP: 122; Initiative: +8
+5 Short sword primary: +24/+19/+14 (1d6+10/17-20)
+5 Short sword secondary: +24/+19/+14 (1d6+7/17-20)
Special: Sneak attack (+9d6), Haste Attack (+1 all attack rolls, 1 extra attack), Improved Two-Weapon Feint (forgo first attack to make a feint check to make the target flat-footed until the start of your next turn), Opportunist (Make an attack as an immediate once per round when someone else hits the same target), Dispelling Strike
Now the raw bonuses aren't as impressive as a Fighter who can get much higher to hit and damage modifiers, however a fighter's to hit modifiers often exceed a target's AC (at higher levels) and if there is a sufficient difference between the flat-footed AC and the standard AC (as there are with the Unchained monster rules) than a Rogue is effectively getting those same bonuses. In addition a rogue gets to make a dispel attempt per attack that successfully hits. That's a lot of dispels to be throwing around at higher level.
Skills wise the Rogue can be roughly on par with the Fighter. The most skills a fighter can reasonably get are 12, and this is using 4 of it's armor mastery abilities (meaning it's AC will be lower than it would be for a normal fighter, he'll also have a higher armor check penalty than the rogue assuming he's wearing heavier armor), the advanced weapon training ability, Int 14, favoured class and human.
Of course, comparing it against a fighter will get most people here rolling their eyes because "fighters suck" as well. But there you have it. Overall though, especially if combined with a tripping fighter, I think this Rogue can certainly hold their own both in and out of a fight. What do other people think?
Looking at the types of monster you might expect to fight at that level... are you going to be able to cope with the DC 25+ Will saves and Fortitude saves that you're likely to face?
A couple of quick notes:
1. Are you an unchained rogue or a regular rogue? Unchained will work better for you as you get weapon finesse and dex to damage. Debilitating strike is also a big deal. The dirty fighting feat might be a good replacement for combat expertise.
2. Is this the level/parameters at which you typically play? If you are trying to convince yourself of the viability of rogues, building a character for those boundaries might be more convincing.
3. Rogues are better at skills than fighters IMO. Pretty much right out of the box. Fighters can get a good number of skills, but the opportunity cost isn't usually worth it and is always going to be harder for them than a rogue. Rogues just get 8 skills per level plus whatever modifiers. Fighters have to burn armor training, weapon training, and invest in int/FCB which are probably not something they really planned on doing when setting out to make a combat focused fighter.
1. Are you an unchained rogue or a regular rogue? Unchained will work better for you as you get weapon finesse and dex to damage. Debilitating strike is also a big deal. The dirty fighting feat might be a good replacement for combat expertise.
2. Is this the level/parameters at which you typically play? If you are trying to convince yourself of the viability of rogues, building a character for those boundaries might be more convincing.
3. Rogues are better at skills than fighters IMO. Pretty much right out of the box. Fighters can get a good number of skills, but the opportunity cost isn't usually worth it and is always going to be harder for them than a rogue. Rogues just get 8 skills per level plus whatever modifiers. Fighters have to burn armor training, weapon training, and invest in int/FCB which are probably not something they really planned on doing when setting out to make a combat focused fighter.
1. Using the regular rogue. I want to see just how badly it functions and what exactly needs to be boosted in order to get it up to scratch. As for Dirty Fighting, I'm hesitant to use it as I prefer to limit the number of splatbooks allowed and I don't know that I want to open up the can of worms that is Dirty Tactics.
2. I'm looking at running Ruins of Azlant which goes up to 17th level. So yes, this would be the upper boundary in which I'm planning to play the game. I've made every effort to make it reasonably organic. For this reason I've avoided getting Two-Weapon Feint as long as possible as it doesn't really come online until level 10. I could have taken it at Rogue 8 (using the Combat Trick Rogue talent, and shuffling down the magic talents), but ultimately it doesn't matter too much.
3. Agreed. I wanted to see how combat oriented a rogue could be (without sacrificing skills) against a fighter that is skill oriented (without unduly sacrificing combat). Overall, despite all the armor and weapon training now available to fighters, I'm fairly happy with how the rogue performs skills wise without using Skill Unlocks.
Looking at the types of monster you might expect to fight at that level... are you going to be able to cope with the DC 25+ Will saves and Fortitude saves that you're likely to face?
About as well as a fighter.
Are there any restrictions on usable books? I will throw out things that I've considered for rogues, but I won't pay attention to book restrictions, so this might not be too helpful for you. Anyway:
I am not sure about relying on feint for getting sneak attack. It takes a -4 against non-humanoids, a -8 against low int creatures, and a -INFINITY against anything that is mindless.
The path I would take, since you start off high level, is to get feats to get your own flank buddy. An animal companion or a familiar. Once you have that, you can do consistent damage without relying on other party members.
Animal companions are a three feat tree now- Nature Soul (prereq), Animal ally (the main feat), and boon companion (to counter the druid lvl-4). Fairly sturdy as allies. You only have ranger selection, but you mostly just want something that flanks, so no matter.
While there are also familiar options, animal companiosn might be the better choice. Once you give the companion 3 int, it can take most feats. So you could go with teamwork feats (you are a pair, and you control both- little reason not to rely on teamwork feats). Grab outflank, and then you can get a total of +4 attack on a consistent basis.
This path would require you to spend skill points on handle animal though. Not much- even with your cha penalties, there is a point where you basically auto pass a lot of the checks.
Sidenote- Greater TWF is a waste. Even for a fighter with a ton of attack bonuses, it is a waste. It is an attack that always hits at BAB-12. Not worth the feat, sepcially with your 3/4 BAB.
I am not sure about relying on feint for getting sneak attack. It takes a -4 against non-humanoids, a -8 against low int creatures, and a -INFINITY against anything that is mindless.
The path I would take, since you start off high level, is to get feats to get your own flank buddy. An animal companion or a familiar. Once you have that, you can do consistent damage without relying on other party members.
Animal companions are a three feat tree now
Eh. I don't particularly like animal companions. I certainly don't find them very thematic for a rogue. And if all I was realy worried about was flanking, I could always use a fellow PC. Good point on the mindless and low int creatures though. Again, I'd be relying on a PC to get my sneak attack off.
I disagree quite strongly on Greater TWF. Remember that this build doesn't Power Attack (doing so was lowering it's DPR unlike a fighter's DPR which is boosted with power attack), and so it has a +12 on it's tertiary attack. Against a flat footed AC, that actually has a reasonable chance of hitting.
Surely not being self sufficient (relying on other PCs for flanking) is a big mark against the build?
Given you're comparing to a fighter whose invested in getting some skills so is actually more self sufficient than usual.
I am not sure about relying on feint for getting sneak attack. It takes a -4 against non-humanoids, a -8 against low int creatures, and a -INFINITY against anything that is mindless.
The path I would take, since you start off high level, is to get feats to get your own flank buddy. An animal companion or a familiar. Once you have that, you can do consistent damage without relying on other party members.
Animal companions are a three feat tree now
Eh. I don't particularly like animal companions. I certainly don't find them very thematic for a rogue. And if all I was realy worried about was flanking, I could always use a fellow PC. Good point on the mindless and low int creatures though. Again, I'd be relying on a PC to get my sneak attack off.
I disagree quite strongly on Greater TWF. Remember that this build doesn't Power Attack (doing so was lowering it's DPR unlike a fighter's DPR which is boosted with power attack), and so it has a +12 on it's tertiary attack. Against a flat footed AC, that actually has a reasonable chance of hitting.
Flat footed might not be quite that great at higher levels. there are a lot of big creatures with below 10 dex and tons of natural armor- dragons are an archetypal example. While the lack of power attack helps, you are still not doing great. Against a creature like that, you would be facing a very hard time hitting that 3rd offhand iterative.
Just grabbing an example (I was on dragons, and decided to google a dragon), an 'old' black dragon has 32 AC. It is 14 CR (which means it might get thrown out as a mook at your level by something more powerful, like an even older dragon). Its flat footed AC.... is also 32 (this is pretty much all natural armor). Just going from your bonus example (so no buffs or other bonuses added on)... you need a natural 20 to hit this thing with the 3rd offhand attack.
you would hit that thing anyway with that natural 20.
But, going back to the animal companion suggeston... one of the advantages of a pet is that you can build it solely to support you- you can give it a build that helps you, which you can't expect from other party members. If you got the companion with outflank to support you, you could hit that 3rd attack on a 16.... which isn't great, but it is muchmore likely than before.
The animal companion also means that you don't need to drag along a party member just so you function. The party's fighter could take the dragon on the left, while you take the one on the right. This can improve everyone's damage, since no one has to sacrifice their full attack just to move into flank position repeatedly as enemies fall. The animal companion could exist purely to move into positon so you get your full attack with sneak attack damage.
I can see a rogue working well thematically with an animal. Just grab a bird that tries to scratch out enemies' eyes. While enemies are busy with that, you get in clsoe and stab them in the neck. I view this tactics as more appropriate for a rogue, specialized in distraction, diversion, and lethal attacks from unseen angles, than I do with a ranger.
Yeah I've made two feinters, flat footed isn't as helpful as you'd think.
Agreed on feint. Many powerful monsters just don't need dex to AC. Instead I find upping mobility and adding more flank buddies to the mix is far more useful. Instead grab a familiar at lv10 and perhaps change some feats to gain an animal companion instead. Also look into getting flight and a mount(if playing through early levels). The added movement options really help you pull off safe flanks
I recommend changing your belt str bonus over to a con bonus. Also move your favored class bonus to hp. Your melee and your hp is piddly. +68 hp is at least worth thinking about. Consider adding agile to your weapons with extra gold or just change out that last point of enhancement bonus. I would recommend changing to a small size race for the bonuses to hit and ac as your damage is in your sneak attack no weapon size.
Ah. I only just realized that he has all the talents together to get a familiar through rogue talents. That might be worth considering...
I would spend a feat on mauler's endurance too though- familairs only get 1/2 your HP, and your hp is...... yeeeeeeah.
I'd only look at this option due to ease of acquisition. Animal companions are preferred, since they actually get feats (and thus outflank).
Feint's good when it works, but it doesn't work on mindless creatures, which effectively expands the creatures you can't sneak attack by one category. Note, once you have Two-Weapon Feint, Greater Feint would be a strict improvement on Improved Two-Weapon Feint. It lasts until the beginning of your next turn rather than until the end of your turn so AoOs and arguably other party members can benefit.
Also your combat mobility looks poor - if you move and attack (or charge) basically nothing you have there works, no feint, no sneak attack, just a single short sword attack for 1d6+10 at 17th level. And then the critter you're fighting unloads a full attack on you.
Critical Focus and Improved Critical are a mistake for a rogue. You have nothing special which triggers on crits, sneak attack isn't affected and your base damage isn't high enough to justify it. If you dump them you could solve a different problem; the fact your only effective routes to sneak attack are flanking and feinting. One idea would be Step Up + Press to the Wall, another is Skill Focus (Stealth) + Hellcat Stealth, or if you drop dispelling attack (which you're getting right after the +10 caster level limit on dispel magic is starting to hurt) you could get ki pool, ninja trick and master trick to obtain the vanishing trick and invisible blade ninja tricks.
One last thing - by 17th level get a cloak of resistance +5. Heck, do it by 12th.
So here's my attempt at making the best Rogue I can at level 17.
Your 17th-level rogue is powerless against a CR9 which can be summoned by SM7 or SNA7. How did you come to the conclusion that this rogue does not suck at lvl.17?
You need too many favorable conditions:
- able to full-attack in melee
- able to sneak attack
- opponent vulnerable to sneak attack
- opponent with low AC
- opponent waiting for being full-attacked by a guy with 2 short swords when all the above conditions apply
So here's my attempt at making the best Rogue I can at level 17.Your 17th-level rogue is powerless against a CR9 which can be summoned by SM7 or SNA7. How did you come to the conclusion that this rogue does not suck at lvl.17?
You need too many favorable conditions:
- able to full-attack in melee
- able to sneak attack
- opponent vulnerable to sneak attack
- opponent with low AC
- opponent waiting for being full-attacked by a guy with 2 short swords when all the above conditions apply
Thinking about it, going with close weapons and outslug style might be a great way to go for rogues.
Outslugs turns your 5' step into a 10' step, and makes it so you don't take penalties with lunge. That means they can full attack at 20', and they can also circle around many foes in order to flank. Also, some minor bonuses when you take a 5' step (when it is 10', could you just move back and forth to get the bonus without losing position?).
You can even keep flavor by sticking with stuff like punching daggers ('t handle knives' used to be well known weapons of scoundrels- if you painted he blades black, you could even get your victim to think it was just a punch, rather than the full stab with a blade).
I would like trying to combine that with one of the flank buddy builds if I was trying to make a high level core rogue.
As for Dirty Fighting, I'm hesitant to use it as I prefer to limit the number of splatbooks allowed and I don't know that I want to open up the can of worms that is Dirty Tactics.
Actually, every other player companion (or so) adds something nice for the rogue, so limiting them seriously impacts the maximum you can get out of a rogue.
About the build: I'd go for a different race. Small races come with large benefits (pun intended): +1 AB, +1 AC and +4 Stealth are quite helpful. The penalties push you more into the Dex & sneak attack dependent corner, but that's a low price to pay. Of the Core races, dwarves can make good rogues (darkvision, save bonuses, Wis bonus for ki for vanishing trick), but also half-orcs (darkvision, racial weapons, Intimidate for Shattering Defenses) and half-elves (three good FCB, Skill Focus or strong weapon, can be upgraded to darkvision via blended view).
Nowadays there are so many options to boost the (combat) rogue and their sneak attack, the problem is rather to know them and choose the fitting ones. I will try to organize the ones I know in chains (minimum level in brackets):
Arcane magic (requires Int 13)
. Minor magic (2)
.. Major magic (3, e.g. vanish)
... Gloom magic (4)
.... Greater gloom magic (5)
... Familiar (10, even if just for skill boost)
... Dispelling attack (10, nice against casters)
.. Elf FCB (2)
Psychic magic (requires Int 13)
. Psychic Sensitivity (1, half-elf can get it as racial feat, some exotic options for your skills)
.. Psychic Adept (1, well it's mostly a feat tax)
... Psychic Disciple (3, can be taken multiple times!)
Ninja tricks (profits from Wis 14+)
. Ki pool (2, rather a tax but with a base speed of 20 a situational +10 is nice)
.. Vanishing trick (3, swift action and supernatural)
.. Shadow clone (3, 1d4 mirror images save you from a few hits, including their possible rider effects)
.. Extra Ki feat (5, if the GM allows it)
Stealth
. Skill Focus (Stealth) (1)
.. Dampen Presence (5, handle blindsense and blindsight)
.. Hellcat Stealth (7, hide in normal or bright light)
Snipe
. Snap shot (2, nice first, becomes weaker but works well with debuffs on sneak)
. Superior sniper (2, get Expert Sniper one level earlier)
. Point Blank Shot (1)
.. Rapid Shot (2)
... Master Sniper (6, can be picked up with Superior sniper rogue talent)
Flanking
. Combat Expertise (1, ugly feat tax)
.. Gang Up (2, worry less about positioning)
. Sliding Dash (10, if you are really good at Acrobatics)
. Dodge (1)
.. Mobility (2, useful to get into position without becoming slower)
... Spring Attack (6, great synergy with scout archetype - and a tank nearby)
.... Circling Mongoose (8, feat intense but potentially quite brutal)
. Outflank (6, synergy with Circling Mongoose, crit fishing and allies with teamwork related class features)
Dirty trick
. Dirty Fighting / Combat Expertise (1, synergy with the feint tree here)
.. Improved Dirty Trick (2)
... Quick Dirty Trick (11, synergy with two-weapon fighting)
.. Agile Maneuvers (3, makes only sense after the improved feat and if you are Dex based)
Blind other than dirty trick
. Obscuring blow (2, 1/day give a foe a 20% miss chance)
.. Blinding strike (15, get Blinding Critical as 'early' as a full BAB class - and profit way more from it)
Feint
. Combat Expertise (1, ugly but some synergy with flanking tree)
.. Improved Feint (2)
... Two-Weapon Feint (3)
... Greater Feint (8)
. Half-elf FCB (1)
Other (indirect) AB boosters
. Armor piercer (2, strong vs. big monsters)
. Petrifying strike (10, 2 points of Dex damage can actually take out some big foes quickly)
Demoralize
. Weapon Focus (2, corners you a bit into a weapon but +1 AB is welcome)
.. Dazzling Display (3, adds a combat option when you couldn't do much otherwise)
... Shatter Defenses (8, can be very powerful, synergy with two-weapon fighting)
. Intimidating Prowess / strong impression (2, if you have the Str)
.. Visceral Threat (2, when also going for feint and plan on Skill Focus (Intimidate))
. Taunt (1, useful when also going for feint and with Skill Focus (Bluff), needs Small race)
Coup de grace
. Knockout queen (2, produce drow poison yourself)
. Dastardly Finish (9, CdG also when foe cowers or is stunned - ask the party's friggin caster for assistance!)
. Knock-out blow (10, 1/day make a foe unconscious or at least staggered)
Other sneak attack sources
. Hunter's surprise (10, 1 round of free slaughtering)
. Weapon Focus (2, so some synergy with Shatter Defenses tree)
.. Anatomical Savant (16, -25% chance to ignore sneak immunity)
Protect yourself with sneak attack
. Befuddling strike (2, +2 effective AC)
. Offensive defense (2, +1 .. +10 (!) effective AC and stacks with Befuddling strike from another hit)
. Emboldening strike (2, +1 .. +10 on saves vs. foe, 1 round)
. Crippling strike (10, 2 points of Str damage can make you a caster killer or melee debuffer)
Build helpers
. Combat trick (2)
. Master Craftsman (5, reasonable feat tax for crafting feats)
. Feat (10)
. Human FCB (1, also for half-orc / half-elf, especially for second avanced talent at level 10)
There is more, I didn't even cover items (like Sword of subtlety). Archetypes matter - personally I like to combine rake and scout, but tastes differ. And despite all this talk about sneak attack: Get cheap defense boosts wherever possible - you need them...
As for Dirty Fighting, I'm hesitant to use it as I prefer to limit the number of splatbooks allowed and I don't know that I want to open up the can of worms that is Dirty Tactics.Actually, every other player companion (or so) adds something nice for the rogue, so limiting them seriously impacts the maximum you can get out of a rogue.
yeah. For example, I just went through rogue talents, and found armor piercer from the monster hunter's handbook.
It lets you sacrifice dice from your sneak attack on one attack in order to cancel out an equal amount of natural armor until the end of your turn.
This seems more useful than the feint- you are sacrificing your damage on one attack anyway, but you are lowering the enemy's AC by... 8? Yeah, 8 at your level. That turns your offhand 3rd iterative from 'only natural 20' to 'a little worse than a coin flip'.
It is basically 1/combat on any particular enemy though (1 min cool down for that target).
This assumes you get sneak attack in the first place, of course. Feint was intended to coverthat... but we have long discussed flanking and such. So I won't add to that.
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1. Using the regular rogue. I want to see just how badly it functions and what exactly needs to be boosted in order to get it up to scratch....
Looking at the types of monster you might expect to fight at that level... are you going to be able to cope with the DC 25+ Will saves and Fortitude saves that you're likely to face?About as well as a fighter.
Except that that's awful (i.e., being a melee-obsessed 2010-era vanilla rogue with BAB-4 and half his feats traded for skills) at 17th level. (Not that he's likely to live that far; most of these types croak at 5th in PFS playing their first Tier6/8: they pay for Raise Dead out of prestige points, get killed again and have to pay cash now, then get killed a third time, and the player makes a new character.)
IMO, if you're going to be a melee scrapper using chained rogue, and you're not going to be the proverbial untouchable halfling, then you need to go the "power" route and shy away from the dink-dink-tink TWF mode than always leaves you ending your turn in a snarly monster's full-attack zone.
~ ~ ~
And for the love of all your blood that you want to keep inside you, play a dwarf. They're really good at what I am about to propose.
Concept: be a rogue who beats the tar out of things while restricting inbound damage and avoiding the massive feat-tax of TWF.
STR:15
DEX:14
CON+16 (dwarf 15,14,14,14,12,07 20pt array)
INT:12
WIS+16
CHA-05
traits: magical knack:cleric, accelerated drinker
01 bloodrager-1 [celestial][move+10][rage:13r/day], Extra Rage
02 cleric-1 [kurgess:community/travel][channel][move+10]
03 rogue-1 [SA+1d6], Raging Vitality
04 rogue-2 [evasion][talent:Trap Spotter], STR>16
05 rogue-3 [SA+3d6], Steel Soul
06 rogue-4 [talent:combat trick:Quick Draw]
07 barbarian-1 [move+10][rage:15r/day], Accomplished Sneak Attacker
Exploits:
* move50, 60 with 30m Longstrider, easily gets into flanking.
* stupid high saving throws with 16s, Steel Soul, and dwarven bonuses.
* faux "rage cycle" via Calming Touch power of Community domain.
* trigger scrolls/wands of cleric and bloodrager spells without UMD.
* not needing high UMD means dumping CHA is a very attractive option.
* free 1d6 damage (Celestial) every attack versus evil creatures.
* two automatic Perception checks versus traps in stone dungeons.
* not useless in long-range artillery duels (like nearly all TWFs).
Equipment at 6th: +1 adamantine bardiche, +1/Adaptable composite longbow, mithral breastplate of agile moves, mithral light quickdraw shield, belt of giant strength +2, cloak/amulet of...etc.
6th-level tactics: activate 25gp scroll of Long Arm (Bloodrager spell list) in prep round; reach is 15'. Swat from flank for d10+6(STR+belt)+3d6(sneak)+1d6(celestial vs evil) versus most opponents, and leave them too far away to reach you on a 5'. Enjoy AoOs with a swank polearm.
Memorize the Brace property rules of your polearm; realize that it works versus pounce (because a pounce is a charge). Around 10th, you'll have a +1/Furious/[/i]Fortuitous[/i] reach weapon, and will soon apply Cunning to it in conjunction with Improved Critical.
Two levels of ranger (for Track, Rapid Shot, and even more buff and utility triggering) are a good addition to the multiclass theme of maximum, impervious versatility.
08 ranger-1 [Track][Favored Enemy](avoiding the trap of BAB5 with rogue-5)
09 ranger-2 [Rapid Shot], Improved Initiative or FEAT(g)
* Two archery shots at 8th, three at 9th. Nice. +9d6 sneak-attack triple-tap against a flatfooter in the first round ain't too shabby at all. Killing things when they can't kill you is the distilled essence of roguery. (Finish that round by dropping bow and quickdrawing polearm.)