Well, considering there is a weapon enhancement that does the same thing I would categorize this as "Not allowable under current rules".
The weapon enhancement is the equivalent to a +2 bonus, which would cost 18,000 gp (for a +1 Endless Ammunition weapon). However, it also causes all subsequent enhancement bonus to cost more on the weapon.
I will admit it's widely regarded as a terrible ability, but it does set the standard.
The current method which people use is an Efficient Quiver with durable arrows. Durable arrows don't break when they hit their target. And you have a 50% chance to recover any arrows that you miss with.
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This is really a Pathfinder rule?
There is a difference though. A bow with endless ammo cannot be seperated from its ammo source.
With the quiver, the character need access to both items.
Yes, it's really a rule.
That's not really a disadvantage. The fact that you could move the quiver around is more beneficial the detriment of needing both items. In any event your idea is way too similar IMO.
The best solution is an Efficient Quiver and durable arrows.
You can even have durable cold iron, silver, and adamanatine arrows so that you can bypass DR.
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The current method which people use is an Efficient Quiver with durable arrows. Durable arrows don't break when they hit their target. And you have a 50% chance to recover any arrows that you miss with.
Definitely the best general strategy. An additional option is the Conserving Weapon Special Ability which will bring any arrow that misses right back to your quiver. That's especially nice when you are using expensive magical arrows. (Although it looks like magical, durable arrows lose their magic even if they miss. I hadn't noticed that before.)
I'll play a little devil's advocate here. How else could an archer achieve the effect of limitless arrows, or close enough to limitless to not tell the difference. A triple size (60) arrow quiver is probably a good number of mundane arrows for any engagement, that's 3gp. A handy haversack stuffed full with 800 spare arrows for refilling between fights would be 2,040gp. So this route would cost 2,043gp, and have the option to dump some arrows for other items. On the other hand, 60 arrows might not always be enough, so it isn't quite up to the unlimited quiver.
All that considered 2,000 gp for the plentiful quiver sounds okay to me, maybe add the limit that only the wearer can draw from it.
i am sure it will come up, and probably has been considered, but what about an Efficiency Quiver? only 60 arrows, but still...
i am sure it will come up, and probably has been considered, but what about an Efficiency Quiver? only 60 arrows, but still...
That's what Claxon suggested. I'll note that since it's slotless you should be able to wear at least two. It would be GM discretion so wearing ten almost certainly wouldn't be an option, but two on your back or one on your back and one on your belt seems pretty reasonable to me.
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This is really a Pathfinder rule?
There is a difference though. A bow with endless ammo cannot be seperated from its ammo source.
With the quiver, the character need access to both items.
Yes, it's really a rule.
That's not really a disadvantage. The fact that you could move the quiver around is more beneficial the detriment of needing both items. In any event your idea is way too similar IMO.
The best solution is an Efficient Quiver and durable arrows.
You can even have durable cold iron, silver, and adamanatine arrows so that you can bypass DR.
I disagree with your interpretation. i think it means that no other ranged weapons (slings, blowguns, firearms, etc.), and no melee weapons can receive that enchantment. There's nothing in the rules for magic item creation to limit which spells can be placed on an item.
Firearms have their own version called shadowshooting.
It doesn't suck nearly as much as the bow version, but is diferent.
It basically means you will almost always do 1 damage. But if you're trying to do a dual wield pistol build it doesn't much matter. You're relying on other thangs besides the damage die of the weapon to deal damage successfully.
As for your bit about magic item creation, the rules for custom magic items aren't robust. They give some vague guidelines, which suggest looking at the cost of other already existing items to price them.
If the OP wanted to do a version of Shadowshooting for bows, I'd probably allow that at the same cost and with the same drawbacks.
But it's still going to be significantly more expensive than what the OP had in mind.
Why not a wondrous item using abundant ammunition as a base spell? 4000gp for a continuous slotless 1st level spell. Thats the price of 80000 arrows which is more than the number most archers will fire over the course of a campaign. The only real advantage would be carrying capacity which is minor considering bags of holding are a thing and most archers have a decent str score for composite bows
Sounds both reasonable and "Rules" legal to me. 4k in GP, 8k if you buy it...costly but not breaking...
Shadowshooting works for any ranged projectile weapon, not just firearms (This special ability can only be added to ranged projectile weapons (including slings and sling-like weapons)). The description relates to a firearm but the mechanics don't. It's also +1 equivalent.
Why not a wondrous item using abundant ammunition as a base spell? 4000gp for a continuous slotless 1st level spell. Thats the price of 80000 arrows which is more than the number most archers will fire over the course of a campaign. The only real advantage would be carrying capacity which is minor considering bags of holding are a thing and most archers have a decent str score for composite bows
Because I already demonstrated that the game values limitless arrows more highly than that based on already existing items.
Hell, even a a efficient quiver on its own is 1800 gp, and that doesn't even get you any arrows. That just lets you hold a lot more arrows than you normally could.
In my opinion as both a player and GM just use one of the existing various combination of items or enhancements which can effectively simulate this.
The efficient quiver and durable arrows combo isn't very expensive or limiting. It may not be unlimited magically generated arrows, but it will accomplish your goal.
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You might check out a magic item called an Ever-full Quiver in the soon to be released New Paths Compendium hardcover, that creates endless arrows or bolts.
The magic item comes in three varieties - The most common (and least expensive) produces normal arrows or bolts.
The two less common (and more expensive) versions create arrows or bolts with adamantine or alchemical silver heads.
To be honest - often "The law is an ass."
If the rules say such an item must be the same cost as a +3 weapon, then the rules are an ass. Time for the GM to use a touch of judgement - which is rule zero for all games.
4000gp to make - sounds expensive to the point of indulgent, but not crazy.
I agree that +2 equivalent cost is too high, but i also think 4000 gp is too low.
Seriously. Just go with what already exists and doesn't take any special rules to do.
Efficient quiver is 1800 gp. Ask your GM if the pouch that normally can hold javelins can instead hold more arrows (it can normally hold 18 javelins, so maybe another 60 arrows). It can also hold up to 6 bows. You might also argue for extra arrow storage and only 1 bow compartment.
After all that, you can then buy durable arrows. 1 durable non-special material arrow is 1 gp. How many do you think you will need? Maximum? 4 iterative attacks, +1 rapid, +1 manyshot, +1 haste. So 7 arrows a round. Lets say 10 rounds of combat (before you can retrieve arrows). So 70 durable arrows should do pretty well. They aren't destroyed, and only potentially lost if you missed the shot. So instead lets by 180 ( a reasonable amount to be able to store in your efficient quiver) for 180 gp and you never run out.
This costs less than 2000 gp. Worst case scenario you need to keep some regular extra quivers on you in case your GM wont let you reasonable replace the javelin compartment with more arrows.
All of which doesn't take any magic or house rules to make work.
@Claxon. Why is 4000gp to low? What price would you recommend?
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They made something similar to this in Dungeon Magazine Archive for D&D 3.5. I forgot what it was called but you can pull an unlimited amount of steel, silver, cold iron, or wooden tipped arrows & 5 times a day (I think) you can pull a adamantine arrow. I haven't read this in years so I could be wrong on some of this info. I think the arrows disappear 1 round after firing. Could be wrong. HopeI helped.
I imagine something similar has been suggested since about 10 minutes after the game was created.
Search for quiver of anariel.
@Claxon. Why is 4000gp to low? What price would you recommend?
Just feels too low to me.
I don't recommend a price, I recommend using durable arrows to effectively simulate this.
I always recommend using existing things to accomplish your goal rather than trying to create custom items.
Custom items should always be avoided when you can accomplish a similar effect without them.
I imagine something similar has been suggested since about 10 minutes after the game was created.
Search for quiver of anariel.
Hey, look at that. The Quiver of Anariel produced non-magical arrows at cost of 28,000 gp. This was a 3.5 item.
So yeah you want a guideline it's 28,000 gp.
Going to chime in here, but didn't the PDT nerf abundant ammo to only be normal arrows ?
If so, then I don't really see this as game breaking.
I disagree. Creativity in a RPG should always be encouraged..
Custom items should always be avoided when you can accomplish a similar effect without them.
Creativity is one thing, but in my experience allowing players to craft custom items usually means imbalanced items.
GMs should have great creativity and can freely make whatever they want. Besides there are plenty of ways to be creative with needing to make magical items that break established rules/concepts.
So you're idea doesn't really apply.
It's not creative to imagine a quiver that automatically makes new arrows for you. That's been imagined before. What you want is a mechanical benefit, this isn't about creative expression.
How about rule of cool then? It really doesn't have any mechanical benefit better than your solution and it is more expensive(regardless of which price you pick from this thread)
I don't really subscribe to the rule of cool.
Pathfinder isn't a rule of cool system. It's rules heavy crunch. There aren't rules for everything, but there are rules for a lot of things.
Rule of cool works in fluffy systems, not so much in crunchy systems.
Now, as a GM if you want to describe your character as having a quiver that never runs out of arrows I'm not going to stop you.
But mechanically it's going to function like the efficient quiver with durable arrows and cost you based on that scheme, and mechanically function like that. Although I don't make you roll for losing arrows, it's honestly just a waste of time. Honestly, as a GM once you've bought an efficient quiver, a bag of holding, and some durable arrows I'm just going to ignore arrows for your character. The efficient quiver can hold roughly 180 arrows, and you can store a couple extra normal quivers in a bag of holding if needed. At that point there's just no need to keep tracking.
I don't really subscribe to the rule of cool.
Pathfinder isn't a rule of cool system. It's rules heavy crunch. There aren't rules for everything, but there are rules for a lot of things.
Rule of cool works in fluffy systems, not so much in crunchy systems.
Now, as a GM if you want to describe your character as having a quiver that never runs out of arrows I'm not going to stop you.
But mechanically it's going to function like the efficient quiver with durable arrows and cost you based on that scheme, and mechanically function like that. Although I don't make you roll for losing arrows, it's honestly just a waste of time. Honestly, as a GM once you've bought an efficient quiver, a bag of holding, and some durable arrows I'm just going to ignore arrows for your character. The efficient quiver can hold roughly 180 arrows, and you can store a couple extra normal quivers in a bag of holding if needed. At that point there's just no need to keep tracking.
Personally I'd lean a little towards 'rule of cool if you're not getting any significant crunch advantage', but that's me.
Our GM is of the 'it's not fun to micromanage ammo' school for the most part, and assuming we bothered to prepare ammo properly, normally doesn't track mundane ammunition. And now we've got two characters with efficient quivers (and one of them's our powergamer, and she's getting that look in her eye..).
I'd say that the +2 enchant is overpriced for arrows. IF it worked on weapons that had to be loaded, I can see that -- it's basically Rapid Reload at that point -- but for arrows? I'd want more for that much.
Like I said, I agree the +2 enchant is bad. That's why I'm suggest a non-magical cheap alternative that will effectively accomplish the goal of "no longer worry about ammunition".
I really hate making up things when a goal can be accomplished without doing so.
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You might check out a magic item called an Ever-full Quiver in the soon to be released New Paths Compendium hardcover, that creates endless arrows or bolts.
The magic item comes in three varieties - The most common (and least expensive) produces normal arrows or bolts.
The two less common (and more expensive) versions create arrows or bolts with adamantine or alchemical silver heads.
Quick follow up - the New Paths Compendium is now available for preorder!
It will also be available in a few weeks right here through Paizo.com as well!