Ways to abuse Solar Revelation -
(G) Gravity Hold
At first glance, this power seems to be a weak form of telekinesis. Then if you really take a look at it, it can be crazy good.
Here's what it does -
As a standard action you can target a item, or creature within 25' + 5'/2 levels that med or smaller in size and move that item, or creature 15'. Can not lift higher then 5' off the ground. Fort Save to negate this power.
Doesn't sound like much till you look at what I bolded.
Item -
*This is a (Su) ability and does not provoke.
*Leaving a threatened square provokes a AoO.
So if you're in melee range and use this power on a enemy and the enemy fails it's save. You then move this enemy, provoking attacks of opportunity. If you have more then 1 melee person in the party, you can possible provoke more then your AO.
You can also use this power on willing party members to help set them up in a more tactical position.
The issue with that strategy is that it relies on at least 2-3 party members being melee to get benefits from it, and in Starfinder, at most you're gonna have 1-2 melee members, and everyone else is gonna be ranged
In my party, im the only melee guy with 4 others being ranged,so at least for me, this doesnt help the party or me at all
Question, does Dark Matter and Enhanced Resistance stack in terms of DR?
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Unfortunately, as written, they don't stack.
Matt2VK wrote:
So if you're in melee range and use this power on a enemy and the enemy fails it's save. You then move this enemy, provoking attacks of opportunity. If you have more then 1 melee person in the party, you can possible provoke more then your AO.
You can also use this power on willing party members to help set them up in a more tactical position.
The only situation where moving something in melee range is better than straight attacking is if you have two other melee party members and you will all get an AoO. Otherwise, attacking twice (or even once) is a better use of your full/standard action than hoping your enemy fails their fort save AND that your AoO hits.
As for moving your teammates, the armor upgrades, augments, items and spells that provide mobility are cheap and readily available to every class. After level 5, no one will need you to move them anywhere, as they'll be able to do it themselves just fine.
Instead of giving your enemy a fort save and then attacking them, just attack them. Most characters are ranged, so you're never going to have enough melee buddies to make mass provokes in a normal game, and no one needs your help flying. I don't see any reason to ever take this power over other any of the good grav revelations.
So does dermal plating improve the DR from dark matter? Cause if so then that's a pretty good combo
MagicA wrote: So does dermal plating improve the DR from dark matter? Cause if so then that's a pretty good combo Dermal Armor will improve any other DR...by precisely one point. This makes Dermal Armor 1 very good, yes.
On the vein of general rule interactions, I was wondering if Blazing Orbit and Stealth Warp play together.
Stealth Warp (while Gravitoned) basically gives you Hide in Plain Sight but has a caveat that enemies will still know where you are till you hit cover or concealment. Blazing Orbit grants you some very, very temporary concealment (only vs AoOs during a move action) and the square you end up in will generally be pretty obvious logically (the one where the fire trail ends) but either way, do the two allow you to basically pull a full mid fight stealth?
Matt2VK wrote: it can be crazy good. Those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.
Matt, I like your enthusiasm, but your desperation to make Graviton seem better than it is...
Look. You're looking for something cute and complex, but the math doesn't lie.
A standard action for a chance to move someone and maybe get an AoO off? Unless the enemy is surrounded by at least 3 allies that is wasted even if it succeeds.
It isn't crazy good, it's marginally good at best. In my group? Useless. We have 5 PCs, 4 are ranged, I'm the only melee.
This is a thread for melee builds for the Solarian. Please focus your efforts there.
Is it better to take dark matter even as a photon focused solarian, or jsut get dermal plating or the enhanced resistance feat to save the move action and revelation slot?
MagicA wrote: Is it better to take dark matter even as a photon focused solarian, or jsut get dermal plating or the enhanced resistance feat to save the move action and revelation slot? One is not always active the other costs money, WBL is very tight in Starfinder.
the thing is that, it requires a move action, and to get the full benefits you need to be photon attuned
would it be better to jsut take the enhanced resistance feat?
I dont consider enhanced resistance a valid feat till we see the nerf its going to get.
Gravity hold in an area with no gravity sounds fun.
Gravity hold also keeps them from moving. If you use it on a melee opponent you can lock them down while your friends shoot them. If used on a ranged opponent you can bring them into melee forcing them to provoke to attack anyone.
gravtion powers seem to be good choices if youre a ranged solarian
MagicA wrote: gravtion powers seem to be good choices if youre a ranged solarian They are.
That was clearly the design intention.
HWalsh wrote: MagicA wrote: gravtion powers seem to be good choices if youre a ranged solarian They are.
That was clearly the design intention. If that was the case, why penalize players for taking more revelations towards one side that clearly are more useful to a different play style? Its asinine
MagicA wrote: HWalsh wrote: MagicA wrote: gravtion powers seem to be good choices if youre a ranged solarian They are.
That was clearly the design intention. If that was the case, why penalize players for taking more revelations towards one side that clearly are more useful to a different play style? Its asinine There are enough utility on both sides, but also to encourage a more varied set up.
My build keeps it balanced and doesn't impede me.
Notice some of the Graviton Revelations work well to aid melee, but only in an ancillary capacity. Some don't work with melee at all. Just like there are Photon Revelations that don't help ranged combat at all.
The balance thing wouldn't be so bad if Graviton was more appealing. Barring stuff like Stealth Warp and maybe Dark Matter for ranged builds, Grav revelations mostly end up things you settle for rather than actually want (in my view anyway). Photon has stuff like Stellar Rush, Plasma Sheathe, Ultimate Photon, Ray of Light, and Solar Acceleration. Even on range builds, I struggle to find Graviton stuff that gives me a feeling beyond a lukewarm "Well it's okay I guess,"
Hell, I barely consider Graviton actually good for ranged builds more so than it's better than Photon (which is mostly bad aside from the passive + damage the mode grants or building toward a Solar Acceleration/Ray reposition)
being able to put up tempoirary cover, walking up walls, and pull your friends with you if you're a ranged party
its not a bad set up honestly
Maybe, but honestly mobility is cheap in SF with jetpacks and temporary cover is a feat away. It's not bad, don't let me give you that impression, it's all just very... whelming. Neither over or under. Just very lukewarm.
I appreciate all the work you are doing with this thread and guide.
I'm curious to see the Tankarian concept you mentioned. While photon powers are clearly more damaging and easily fulfill the melee dps role I'm curious to see how much damage is sacrificed for defensive options for your tank graviton build.
Could you use the Solarian weapon in Powered Armor? I know that it likely lowers your AC and may not be optimal in several ways. I just like the image of a big glowing battle glove on the end of your power suits fist.
Golo wrote: I appreciate all the work you are doing with this thread and guide.
I'm curious to see the Tankarian concept you mentioned. While photon powers are clearly more damaging and easily fulfill the melee dps role I'm curious to see how much damage is sacrificed for defensive options for your tank graviton build.
A fairly large chunk. At Max level it's like 4 from not being in Photon, 10 from not using Plasma Sheath, 2 from a lower strength - You also have 2 lower save DCs for your lower charisma.
You do need a cybernetic arm though so you're using a 2 handed melee weapon and have an arm free.
You end up with:
12d10+6 (Str) +20 (Weapon Spec) +10 (Deadly Aim)
For a total of: 12d10+36
Vs 18d6+52f
You do tend to have a 43/43 E/KAC base and a situational 46/46 E/KAC with the second use of Gravity Shield.
HWalsh wrote: Golo wrote: I appreciate all the work you are doing with this thread and guide.
I'm curious to see the Tankarian concept you mentioned. While photon powers are clearly more damaging and easily fulfill the melee dps role I'm curious to see how much damage is sacrificed for defensive options for your tank graviton build.
A fairly large chunk. At Max level it's like 4 from not being in Photon, 10 from not using Plasma Sheath, 2 from a lower strength - You also have 2 lower save DCs for your lower charisma.
You do need a cybernetic arm though so you're using a 2 handed melee weapon and have an arm free.
You end up with:
12d10+6 (Str) +20 (Weapon Spec) +10 (Deadly Aim)
For a total of: 12d10+36
Vs 18d6+52f
You do tend to have a 43/43 E/KAC base and a situational 46/46 E/KAC with the second use of Gravity Shield. Dont forget you also ignore AOO so youre even more mobile, for what thats worth.
simplygnome wrote:
Dont forget you also ignore AOO so youre even more mobile, for what thats worth.
No. You really don't ignore AoO. So far I have found very little change in the frequency of AoO and you are not, in fact "more mobile" you usually end up with 1 extra square of movement. My tests have shown, so far, that the "mobility gap" between Heavy and Light armor simply does not exist in any statistically relevant manner.
Note:
Beyond level 1 - You will likely notice something slightly, in incredibly large rooms, but post level 1, this is not an issue once Stellar Rush is taken by the Solarian. (Which both builds take)
But you do ignore AOO. You have cover, and if you have cover you ignore aoo. Pg 254.
Edit - and I wasnt commenting on light vs heavy, I was just saying your tank build, because theyre using Gravity Shield more, will have more maneuverability by ignoring AoO on the side their shield is facing, which is a small, but neat, bonus.
simplygnome wrote: But you do ignore AOO. You have cover, and if you have cover you ignore aoo. Pg 254.
Edit - and I wasnt commenting on light vs heavy, I was just saying your tank build, because theyre using Gravity Shield more, will have more maneuverability by ignoring AoO on the side their shield is facing, which is a small, but neat, bonus.
Yeah, it is the "on the side the shield is facing" part that messes with things. In my experience, since you have to blow a move action to reposition the shield, it isn't really that good at preventing AoOs.
What it actually is great for is forcing AoOs. Enemies can circumvent the cover just by stepping through it (nothing says they can't, as it only deflects attacks) so you can rush an enemy, and if you put the shield directly in front of you, in order for them to get a shot, they have to step around or through you to get past the cover.
Enemy = X
Shield = ___
You = O
_O_
..X..
Thats definitely a good tactic also, however its still good to note the shield itself helps you prevent some AoO, in the case that the shield is between you, which there are plenty of reasons for that to happen.
HWalsh wrote: Yeah, it is the "on the side the shield is facing" part that messes with things. In my experience, since you have to blow a move action to reposition the shield, it isn't really that good at preventing AoOs. Given it is reposition to a different edge as part of a move action, not its own move action, and if you are provoking AoOs as a melee that means you are moving somewhere, you can guarantee it prevents an AoO from at least 1 enemy threatening you. Reposition the shield at the beginning of the move, and then actually leave the square. Thats 100% of move actions preventing at least 1 AoO with this ability up.
In my mind, this is ideal for getting into melee with those really large enemies with reach. Setup shield with correct position, walk or charge in. I'm not seeing much else in the example melee builds other than Gravity Shield that prevents AoOs on approach to large and larger enemies (other than maybe Black Hole pulling them to you and Wormhole).
How different would these builds be if they allowed you to have both solar armor and solar weapon on tap to use?
Not very I'd figure. Going into meele with a solar weapon while having enough dex to justify using light (and solar) armor is just too MAD to justify imo. IIRC people have tried justifying a CC Solarian with Advanced Meele and Solar Armor and the numbers just weren't there. Solar tandem would be similarly uncooperative.
Meele Solarians would have a backup source of energy resistance for environmental corner cases and Armor gunners would have a cheaper backup CCW is basically the gist of the changes if you ask me.
Well, even if at max you just have 20 dex and using the best light armor with solar armor
you lose out on 3 pts of AC, but have great resistance against fire weapons
which are plenty present in Starfinder
MagicA wrote: How different would these builds be if they allowed you to have both solar armor and solar weapon on tap to use? I really doubt it would change much.
The Heavy Armor suggestion boils down to attribute opportunity costs and how efficient you wish to be with your level up decisions. None of that changes if the class was allowed to manifest both.
This is something that I would consider for a house rule in my future home games.
In the meantime, I'll keep tinkering with build ideas using Solar Armor and the Solar Weapon as separate things.
I feel as though that the fire resistance that solar armor gives is very nice
Would it be unbalanced if it gave a total of +3 to ac at later levels?
MagicA wrote: How different would these builds be if they allowed you to have both solar armor and solar weapon on tap to use? Considerably different. It would cause me to revise the entire build.
HWalsh wrote: MagicA wrote: How different would these builds be if they allowed you to have both solar armor and solar weapon on tap to use? Considerably different. It would cause me to revise the entire build. I'm surprised to see that. What would you do differently?
HWalsh wrote: MagicA wrote: How different would these builds be if they allowed you to have both solar armor and solar weapon on tap to use? Considerably different. It would cause me to revise the entire build. In what ways if you dont mind me asking?
MagicA wrote: I feel as though that the fire resistance that solar armor gives is very nice
Would it be unbalanced if it gave a total of +3 to ac at later levels?
I think a +3 AC at later levels would be too much. As is, you could build to exceed the EAC/KAC of other classes that use light armor and verses the Soldier most of your armor picks don't have check penalties or movement hits.
oldskool wrote: HWalsh wrote: MagicA wrote: How different would these builds be if they allowed you to have both solar armor and solar weapon on tap to use? Considerably different. It would cause me to revise the entire build. I'm surprised to see that. What would you do differently? MagicA wrote: HWalsh wrote: MagicA wrote: How different would these builds be if they allowed you to have both solar armor and solar weapon on tap to use? Considerably different. It would cause me to revise the entire build. In what ways if you dont mind me asking? I try to stay out of this kind of theory crafting normally, but... Hey, why not?
So...
The first thing I'd do is point out that you NEVER want to ignore a class ability. This is why I don't like the Heavy Armored Solarian who uses an Advanced Weapon. It doesn't use the Solar Weapon or the Solar Armor.
So... Assuming that you could use both Solar Armor and Solar Weapon simultaneously... You'd want to take advantage of it.
However with Charisma being your Resolve Skill you want to make changes...
Here is what I would do...
1. Heavy Armor is a no-go, while it might still be better, you would be spending a feat in order to circumvent one of your own class abilities.
This would require a higher dexterity than 20 at 20.
You want to get as close to 26 as possible - You won't accomplish this... Not without sacrificing damage considerably...
So Charisma would be the sacrificial stat... Higher later, but it becomes instantly tertiary.
So our starting array would look like this (with a human) (theme anything)
01: 14/16/10/10/10/12
05: 16/18/12/10/12/12
10: 18/19/12/12/12/14
15: 19/20/12/12/14/16
20: 20/20/14/12/16/18
Which is a decent array, but will really hurt you with to-hit and damage at lower levels and will be felt.
Your +6 goes to Dexterity, +4 to Strength, +2 to Charisma
20: 24/26/14/12/16/20
This lowers our Intelligence considerably over my more utilitarian builds and also keeps Strength +1 lower for lower to hit and damage. However you have a free feat and this is a human build so there is that. This does get you to your 42/42 base EAC/KAC as well at 20 which is good.
Your damage suffers by exactly 1 damage in this build. 18d6+52f
As a human, you could totally rock Spellbane as well, making your saves that much higher.
The downside with this kind of build, if the Solarian were hypothetically capable of it is that it calls for much higher attributes. Here is a similar Human Heavy Armor variant, theme for Dex - One of the more popular ones in practice than the 18 int variant due to not needing the skills in standard play anywhere near as much. (I still like skills, but I can't argue with the polls)
01: 16/13/10/10/10/14
05: 18/15/10/12/10/16
10: 19/17/12/12/12/16
15: 20/17/14/12/14/18
20: 20/18/16/14/16/18
20: 26/20/16/14/16/22
We end up with better skills, better saves (save for Reflex) better to hit (and earlier to-hit bonuses are much higher) as well as higher resolve in general than the other build and it feels more organic.
The main advantage over the second build is that you have a number of other things you can do. This isn't possible though when you are forced to push for a natural 20/20/--/--/--/18 build
That is a fair point
the +2 ac and fire resistance is a great combo, it really helps to mitigate the damage
You would potentially lose out on 3 pts of ac using hardlight spelicast armor, and solar armor
+24/+24 EAC/KAC +5 dex= 29/29 EAC/KAC with free Fire Resistance 20
Vesk MonolithIII: +26/+27 EAC/KAC +5 DEX= 31/32 EAC/KAC with no fire resistance
Overall I think its a good tradeoff
I revised one of the human builds, I call it the "I don't really want many skills" build.
It is a bit deceptive though, because being human means it has the skills as though it had an effective 14 Intelligence (at level 20) The other crazy thing about it is the saves. You are going to save vs almost anything. A fully maxed out PC can hit DC 27, the Goblin Monarch has a DC 29 - You need a 7-9 to resist the PC spell, only a 9-11 to resist the Monarch.
You are officially Teflon Billy.
Sample Build:
Ace Pilot - Human - Solarian
Ability Scores (Initial - Final with Items)
Strength 26 (20)
Dexterity 20 (18)
Constitution 18
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 18
Charisma 22 (18)
lvl 01: 16/13/10/10/10/16
lvl 05: 18/15/12/10/12/16
lvl 10: 19/17/14/10/14/16
lvl 15: 20/17/16/12/16/16
lvl 20: 20/18/18/12/18/18
Saves:
Fort: +18 (+12 +4 +2)
Ref: +16 (+6 +5 +5 (Resistance Ring))
Will: +18 (+12 +4 +2)
vs Spells:
Fort: +20
Ref: +18
Will: +20
Stellar Revelations:
1st - Black Hole (G)
1st - Supernova (P)
2nd - Stellar Rush (P)
4th - Dark Matter (G)
6th - Corona (P)
8th - Gravity Boost (G)
10th - Plasma Sheath (P)
12th - Stealth Warp (G)
14th - Gravity Shield (G)
16th - Ultimate Photon (P)
18th - Ultimate Graviton (G)
20th - Soul Furnace (P)
Zenith Revelations:
9th - Wormhole
9th - Solar Acceleration
17th - Ray of Light
17th - Time Dialation
Feats:
Human - Spellbane
1st - Heavy Armor
3rd - Weapon Focus (Solar Weapon)
5th - Step Up
7th - Adaptive Fighting
9th - Step Up and Strike
11th - Nimble Moves
13th - Penetrating Strike
15th - Improved Resistance
17th - Great Fortitude
19th - Iron Will
HWalsh wrote:
lvl 01: 16/13/10/10/10/16
lvl 05: 18/15/12/10/12/16
lvl 10: 19/17/14/10/14/16
lvl 15: 20/17/16/12/16/16
lvl 20: 20/18/18/12/18/18
How do you start with 16/13/10/10/10/16 as human?
14 + 2 = 16 Str, costs 4 points. 16 Charisma costs the other 6 points. 1 Dex comes from Ace Pilot. Where do the other 2 points in Dex come from?
Also, the saves look pretty average to me until very late game, like the last 4-5 levels late game (something you'll never get to in SFS or the Dead Suns AP for example). Assuming Dex is 11 to start with, at level 12, you are only looking at 10/6/10 base saves (+2 vs Spells). Compared to a Necrovite at level 13 with DC 24s, you need 12's to save on the strong save, and depending on equipment, possibly as bad as a 16 to save on the reflex saves. Against non-spells saves at that level, you're looking for 11's on the strong saves (DC 21 fatigue aura on the Necrovite for example). 50/50 odds strikes me as failing against every other power/spell.
At 1st level, you've got +2/+0/+2 with +2 vs Spells. Which is good against spells, but otherwise base saves from the class.
All I'm saying I guess is you're not Teflon Billy until level 15+, and really 19th and 20th when you get the last save boosting feat and last +2 to Con and Wis.
Hiruma Kai wrote: HWalsh wrote:
lvl 01: 16/13/10/10/10/16
lvl 05: 18/15/12/10/12/16
lvl 10: 19/17/14/10/14/16
lvl 15: 20/17/16/12/16/16
lvl 20: 20/18/18/12/18/18
How do you start with 16/13/10/10/10/16 as human?
14 + 2 = 16 Str, costs 4 points. 16 Charisma costs the other 6 points. 1 Dex comes from Ace Pilot. Where do the other 2 points in Dex come from?
Also, the saves look pretty average to me until very late game, like the last 4-5 levels late game (something you'll never get to in SFS or the Dead Suns AP for example). Assuming Dex is 11 to start with, at level 12, you are only looking at 10/6/10 base saves (+2 vs Spells). Compared to a Necrovite at level 13 with DC 24s, you need 12's to save on the strong save, and depending on equipment, possibly as bad as a 16 to save on the reflex saves. Against non-spells saves at that level, you're looking for 11's on the strong saves (DC 21 fatigue aura on the Necrovite for example). 50/50 odds strikes me as failing against every other power/spell.
At 1st level, you've got +2/+0/+2 with +2 vs Spells. Which is good against spells, but otherwise base saves from the class.
All I'm saying I guess is you're not Teflon Billy until level 15+, and really 19th and 20th when you get the last save boosting feat and last +2 to Con and Wis. Doh! I botched the level 1 numbers, let me go fix that...
It might be the lack of a Bestiary, but my Solarion keeps getting shot by lasers and set on fire. With his poor reflex save and lower EAC, I'm heavily considering picking Fire Resistance instead of DR, when I get to lvl 5.
Is the item level of the Solar Weapon listed somewhere? I feel like I must've skimmed by it at some point, wondering for Fusions.
Petty Alchemy wrote: It might be the lack of a Bestiary, but my Solarion keeps getting shot by lasers and set on fire. With his poor reflex save and lower EAC, I'm heavily considering picking Fire Resistance instead of DR, when I get to lvl 5.
Is the item level of the Solar Weapon listed somewhere? I feel like I must've skimmed by it at some point, wondering for Fusions.
You need a Crystal to get Fusions. They have levels right in the table.
Did we ever find out if you can use fusions with your solarion weapons?
Vidmaster7 wrote: Did we ever find out if you can use fusions with your solarion weapons? Solarian Weapon Crystals are treated like weapons in all ways, so the evidence seems strongly in favor of 'yes'.
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