TLDR: A moderately-Dex-focused Solar Armor Solarion (e.g., a S14, D16, Ch12(14 if Lashunta) build that prioritizes Dex-increases) will have an average AC that’s almost a full point (+0.875) higher than the max AC of a heavy armor Solarian.
Yes. By sacrificing a significant amount of utility points and/or damage you can indeed get a higher AC with Light Armor and Solar Armor. You are working much harder to get negligible benefit though.
Light Armor (w/ Solar Armor) vs Heavy Armor Max (using the best for each lvl) - Note: I am also assuming realistic numbers, so no Dex +8 bonus at level 8. - For the Heavy Armor build in this one I am assuming the person started at 14 Dex and 14 Charisma, because my build uses 13 usually it isn't trying to cap Armor. This is just an example of a Heavy Armor build capping the Heavy Armor in a realistic way.
Note: I'm not even applying Phase Shields to any of this.
Edit: For funsies I added a 3rd column for post level 7 with the Phase Shield.
Those are the raw, realistic numbers, for someone who wants maximum defense for Light/Heavy armor.
The Light Armored Solarian - In order to keep pace with damage, needs to get to a 26 Strength, which requires getting to a natural 22 and using a +4 Personal Enhancement and needs a 26 in Dexterity meaning a natural 20 while getting a +6 personal enhancement. This can be swapped around, but those are the required numbers wither way.
The Heavily Armored Solarian - In order to maximize damage (theoretically they could go to a 28 strength, but that is such a waste) needs a 26 Strength (20 Strength with +6 Personal Enhancement) and a 20 Dexterity (18 Dexterity with a +2 Personal Enhancement).
Those numbers are why, in my guide, I put Heavy Armor w/ Solar Weapon over Light Armor w/ Solar Armor - There are other factors, as we have gone over in this thread, but that is the main one. The fact is one build calls for much higher of an investment for much lower of a return.
This is simple math people. This isn't even a matter of opinion. Typically speaking the gains you get over Heavy Armor are ridiculously minuscule compared to the investment required to attain them.
Yes... I get it. You want to be in Light Armor, you want "maximum mobility" (which I am convinced is quite overkill) and you really hate the idea that one guy (namely me) wrote a guide that you seem to think says that your build is bad wrong fun. Which I didn't. I just wrote a guide. I figured it would help some people.
At this point I am almost sorry I freaking did.
Edit to add: The funny part? One of the planned editions to the guide was the melee Tankarian - Which is a Light Armored melee build that gets so much effective AC, is such a good tank, that it puts everything else to shame.
I'm talking situational effective AC of 46/46 (potentially 47/47) at level 20.
Yes... I get it. You want to be in Light Armor, you want "maximum mobility" (which I am convinced is quite overkill) and you really hate the idea that one guy (namely me) wrote a guide that you seem to think says that your build is bad wrong fun. Which I didn't. I just wrote a guide. I figured it would help some people.
At this point I am almost sorry I freaking did.
I am glad you spent the time to write the guide. While some of the items I'd rate slightly different, that's just personal preference.
I think the real problem is people see the potential of Solarians being a fun, flexible class but as things are written now, Solarians are pigeon holed into very limited builds if they want to be effective.
What is making people mad is that every Solarian you see is the same build with just minor differences.
Hell, Im playign a human Solarian that uses your guide, and so far it's been working great for me
(even though Ive yet to have someone miss me over 3 sessions with combats in them)
Thing is, if you are following my guide, going full Dex wouldn't have helped you either if everything is hitting you. You'd be seeing such a small difference it might have equaled 1 miss if nobody has missed you yet.
So far, have you encountered significant mobility issues?
What is making people mad is that every Solarian you see is the same build with just minor differences.
Unfortunately that is just the nature of the beast.
The Heavy Armor w/ Solar Weapon melee specialist Solarian is the best mechanical build for going for maximum melee damage. The build is limited because it becomes a matter of math.
For ease of use we'll call it the Slashian.
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The Light Armor w/ Solar Armor melee tank isn't going to hit maximum damage output, but it can tank like nothing else in the game short of a specific Power Armor build that is theoretical and incredibly power intensive.
That looks not much like the Slashian - It actually stays in Graviton Mode 9/10 times.
Side Note: I may be adjusting the Gravity Shield rating for the Slashadin. I need to test it, but there may be a use for it in conjunction with Ultimate Graviton.
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There is also a Light Armor w/ Solar Armor ranged Longarm user I call the Blastarian. That one, likewise, uses more Graviton than Photon.
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Finally there is an experimental build called the Jerkarian which is... Weird. It is an attempt at a Solarian CC build. It... Doesn't really work. I'm trying to refine it.
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There are plenty of different Solarian builds. They do require some creativity. The Blastarian, for example, requires either having 3+ arms to start, or getting a cybernetic one. The Jerkian is a funky pistoleer that isn't quite working... So far it seems to work 1 out of every 3 rounds... And it simply isn't as effective as I'd like it to be so I don't consider something with only 33% up time viable.
@Matt2VK
that is the exact issue the Solarian has at the moment and I hope Paizo fixes this
@HWalsh
in the first combat kidna because I had to move, use throw mystarknife, then wait next round to close in and melee with someone
now that I have stellar rush due to leveling up, hopefully that becomes less of an issue
that is the exact issue the Solarian has at the moment and I hope Paizo fixes this
@HWalsh
in the first combat kidna because I had to move, use throw mystarknife, then wait next round to close in and melee with someone
now that I have stellar rush due to leveling up, hopefully that becomes less of an issue
Which I think it will be
Ah, yeah, level 1 that can happen. You must have had an enemy that was further than 50 feet away (kind of far to be honest) or there was some difficult terrain.
Mine carries a sidearm for those situations. So far I have never had to draw it.
Solarian Weapon you have to choose which weapon type of damage to use -
Slashing
Piercing
Bludgeoning
I was original going go with a spear for mine and do Piercing Damage but I'm already carrying around a pistol that does Piercing damage so trying to decide between -
Solarian Weapon you have to choose which weapon type of damage to use -
Slashing
Piercing
Bludgeoning
I was original going go with a spear for mine and do Piercing Damage but I'm already carrying around a pistol that does Piercing damage so trying to decide between -
Slashing
or
Bludgeoning
Now, which do people think is better?
I do Slashing, but that is also because mine's is a follower of Iomedae and has a Iomedean Longsword as their Solar Weapon. I think it is just personal taste. We don't have a monster manual yet to know if bludgeoning or slashing resistance is more common.
I went with the katana to emulate a samurai
yes, weabish I know but if you;re playing a warrior all about balance and perfection with their abilities, the Bushido code kinda compliments that
So, a friend hopped in to guest star this session, and he wanted to play a Solarion so we copy-pasted mine and gave him Graviton stuff instead of Photon.
Black Hole feels a lot worse than Supernova.
Supernova wipes goblins, or hurts them a lot even if they save.
Black Hole makes them pull out dogslicers (which is better than facing their lasers, but worse than incinerating them) or nothing.
I think going forward, our group might buff Black Hole in some way, make it more reliable. Maybe remove the save, since after all you have to charge up so long to use it.
Dark Matter didn't do anything for him because everyone had lasers, which also was unfortunate. Maybe things will get better when the Bestiary comes out, because right now Fire Resist looks better than DR.
So, a friend hopped in to guest star this session, and he wanted to play a Solarion so we copy-pasted mine and gave him Graviton stuff instead of Photon.
Black Hole feels a lot worse than Supernova.
Supernova wipes goblins, or hurts them a lot even if they save.
Black Hole makes them pull out dogslicers (which is better than facing their lasers, but worse than incinerating them) or nothing.
I think going forward, our group might buff Black Hole in some way, make it more reliable. Maybe remove the save, since after all you have to charge up so long to use it.
Dark Matter didn't do anything for him because everyone had lasers, which also was unfortunate. Maybe things will get better when the Bestiary comes out, because right now Fire Resist looks better than DR.
Supernova definitely gets trickier with more friendlies in melee, while Black Hole gets better. Still, I think Black Hole should do something even if they make the save. Drag them half the distance at least.
Yeah, that came off more confrontational than I intended. I don't think we profoundly disagree too much.
Porridge wrote:
Some corrections (I think you must be making some different assumptions than the ones I lay out in my post):
--At 5, Light should be 21/22, not 20/21. [10 + 5/6 (D-suit I) + 5 (Dex) +1 (Solar Armor]
--At 8, Light should be 26/27, not 24/26. [10 + 9/10 (Lashunta tempweave, advanced + 6 (Dex) +1 Solar Armor]
--At 10, Heavy should be 27/30, not 28/30. [10 +15/18 (Defiance series specialist) + 2 (Dex)).
--At 10, Light should be 30/31, not 29/31. [10 + 12/13 (Freebooter armor III) + 6 (Dex) +2 (Solar Armor)]
--At 12, Light should be 33/33, not 32/32. [10 + 15/15 (Hardlight series squad) + 6 (Dex) +2 (Solar Armor)]
--At 15, Heavy should be 35/36, not 36/36. [10 + 21/22 (Enginerunner) + 4 (Dex)]
--At 18, Heavy should be 38/40, not 39/39. [10 + 24/26 ((Vesk Overplate V) + 4 (Dex)]
--At 18, Light should be 40/41, not 39/40. [10 + 20/21(Freebooter Armor V) + 8 (Dex) +2 (Solar Armor)]
--At 20, Heavy should be 41/42, not 42/42. (10 + 26/27 (Vesk Monolith III) + 5 (Dex)]
--At 20, Light should be either 41/43 or 42/42 (avg is the same either way), not 41/41. [10 + 22/22 (Hardlight series specialist) + 8 (Dex) +2 (Solar Armor)]
All of these assume your highest Ability Upgrade in Dex. Which is an extremely questionable choice on Str-based melee. I specifically noted I was assuming the second highest upgrade into Dex, to reflect that you want the highest in Str.
As for the Heavy Armor, I was assuming a Phase Shield at higher levels. It's Heavy Armor only, and takes up a hand...but the Solarian is one of the few people who give up basically nothing by their hand getting taken up.
I feel like darkmatter is not as good as it can be
Since the DR is so low and requires graviton attunement to get the full benefit, even then you;re only getting maybe between 2-10 pts of DR across your entire career as a Solarian
I think graviton powers need more love for them to be more viable for a melee solarian, cause I have yet to find a need to use black hole since I am the only melee guy in my party, and everyone else is ranged so pulling enemies closer to me, also means pulling them closer to them, and that's not a good thing
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
HWalsh wrote:
Porridge wrote:
TLDR: A moderately-Dex-focused Solar Armor Solarion (e.g., a S14, D16, Ch12(14 if Lashunta) build that prioritizes Dex-increases) will have an average AC that’s almost a full point (+0.875) higher than the max AC of a heavy armor Solarian.
...
Yes... I get it. You want to be in Light Armor, you want "maximum mobility" (which I am convinced is quite overkill) and you really hate the idea that one guy (namely me) wrote a guide that you seem to think says that your build is bad wrong fun. Which I didn't. I just wrote a guide. I figured it would help some people.
At this point I am almost sorry I freaking did.
...wait, what?
As I note at the end of my post, I’m not trying to make any overall assessments about the merits of going Solar Armor vs Solar Weapon.
I’m responding to the comments (in the three quotes at the start of my post) by defenders of the Solar Armor approach who suggest things like, e.g., that a Dex-focused Solar Armor build isn’t so bad because they’ll only have to sacrifice a point of AC or so.
And I point out that this turns out not to be true -- a Dex-focused Solar Armor build will end up having a higher AC, not a lower AC. (I do this because I think it’s important to get the facts on the ground right, and because it’s easy to miss -- I missed it myself at first.)
But none of that was addressed to you... indeed, I don't take anything I say in that post to disagree with anything you’ve said.
HWalsh wrote:
One of the planned editions to the guide was the melee Tankarian - Which is a Light Armored melee build that gets so much effective AC, is such a good tank, that it puts everything else to shame.
Sounds very interesting. I’m looking forward to seeing it!
I feel like darkmatter is not as good as it can be
Since the DR is so low and requires graviton attunement to get the full benefit, even then you;re only getting maybe between 2-10 pts of DR across your entire career as a Solarian
It's exactly the same reduction as Plasma Sheath is a bonus, and you can add one to it with Dermal Armor.
1/2 level DR doesn't always look awesome on paper, but in practice is really great, as the Geoineticist in my most recent Pathfinder game demonstrated.
MagicA wrote:
I think graviton powers need more love for them to be more viable for a melee solarian, cause I have yet to find a need to use black hole since I am the only melee guy in my party, and everyone else is ranged so pulling enemies closer to me, also means pulling them closer to them, and that's not a good thing
You could move past them and then pull them away from your party. That seems cool and useful, and not even terribly suicidal if you have Mobility.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Yeah, that came off more confrontational than I intended.
No worries!
Deadmanwalking wrote:
As for the Heavy Armor, I was assuming a Phase Shield at higher levels. It's Heavy Armor only, and takes up a hand...but the Solarian is one of the few people who give up basically nothing by their hand getting taken up.
Gotcha.
(In the second note at the bottom of my post I note why I don't include the Phase Shield, and and why I think it's generally a bad investment for a Solarian. But that's neither here nor there -- I can see how that gets you the different numbers for Heavy Armor.)
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Porridge wrote:
Some corrections (I think you must be making some different assumptions than the ones I lay out in my post): (Stuff)
All of these assume your highest Ability Upgrade in Dex.
Yep. (As I noted, I'm assuming a 16 Dex starting build that prioritizes Dex increases.)
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Which is an extremely questionable choice on Str-based melee. I specifically noted I was assuming the second highest upgrade into Dex, to reflect that you want the highest in Str.
Gotcha; I can see how the lower Dex assignments would change the values you assign to Light Armor.
I think we might diverge a bit about how questionable this is, though I suspect we probably we won’t end up being that far apart, in the end.
1. One tentative reason to think the lower Str isn’t as big a deal for advanced melee weapon users is that the relative expected damage of (full-attacking) Energy weapons vs (standard attacking) Unwieldy weapons vs (full-attacking) Kinetic weapons is heavily AC/attack bonus-dependent. The lower your attack bonus/the higher the AC, the better the Energy and Unwieldy options are relative to standard Kinetic weapons. So to some extent the Energy and Unwieldy options counteract the import of high attack bonuses, since these are weapons which are more helpful (expected damage-wise, relative to std Kinetic weapons) for lower attack-bonus characters than high-attack bonus ones.
Anyway, the availability of Energy and Unwieldy weapons will go some way toward mitigating their lower attack bonus... But I grant that this is pretty tentative, since until I have concrete AC values I can’t asses whether the extent of this mitigation turns out to be substantial or trivial.
2. My second reason to think that this approach isn’t terrible is that there are some interesting melee-builds where it strikes me as a decent choice. For example:
Spoiler:
Consider a Solarian built to take maximum advantage of their aura abilities (Radiation, Corona, Supernova/Miniature Star). The idea would be to place yourself in a good position, hamper and harm your opponents with your auras, and keep them from moving away from you (to keep them in range of your auras, and to keep them from getting at your squishier party members).
What would such a build want?
--1. You’ll want a good initiative, to ensure you can act before your opponents can spread out and move to attack squishier party members.
--2. You’ll want a good move speed, to quicky move into position.
(Two points about this.
First, this would be less important if you’re using Stellar Rush all the time. But, sadly, it’s hard to fit Stellar Rush into this build given your limited number of revelations. And Stellar Rush isn’t as good with this build as it is with most builds, because you have a lot of other demands on your standard action (e.g., kicking in auras), and not many other demands on your move action (making it natural to use the to move into position.
Second, it’s true that move speed is less important at higher levels, when you can rock high-tier Speed Suspension and heavy armor has lower movement penalties. But at low/mid levels this is going to be pretty important... and you don’t want to have to suffer until you get to high levels.)
--3. You’ll want a good Acrobatics skill modifier, so you can move into position in the middle of a group of opponents without provoking AOO.
--4. You’ll want high defenses (AC, DR, energy resistance, etc), since by forcing your opponents to stay near you (and away from squishier party members) you’re making yourself a target.
--5. You’ll want lots of feats: things like Step Up and Stand Still/Improved Stand Still to keep your opponents from getting away, and of course feats that help you meet the above desiderata (Improved Initiative, Fleet, Enhanced Resistance).
--6. For about half of the aura abilities (Radiation and Supernova) you’d like a decent Charisma to increase DCs.
A Dex-focused Solar Armor+light armor build is going to look pretty good here, since they’ll have a great initiative, a good move speed, a great Acrobatics skill modifier (high dex, no armor penalty), a great AC with extra defenses (energy resistance), and will be able to get their priority feats (Step Up, Stand Still, Improved Stand Still, Enhanced Resistance (DR), Improved Initiative) more quickly since they don’t need to spend a feat on Heavy Armor Proficiency. That said, they’ll probably end up having a somewhat lower Cha than a Str build, though, at least at mid/high levels.
Now granted, there are a lot of builds where the Solar Armor approach isn’t going to look as nearly as attractive. In fact, I think I’d probably agree that most melee build-types will do better with a Str-focused Solar Weapon approach than a Dex-focused Solar Armor approach (or, more accurately, a Dex-and-then-Str-focused Solar Armor approach, since it focuses on both). But I guess “extremely questionable” strikes me as a bit too strong, since (IMO) there are interesting melee builds which are arguably do better with a Dex-focused Solar Armor approach...
Couple assumptions I'll be making.
1) You do not plan on bump DEX all the time.
2) When designing your build, no matter which race you choose, your stats end up looking the same.
So let's compare what the Human and Korasha Lashunta race traits are -
Korasha Lashunta - Student: +2 Insight Bonus to 2 skills.
Human - Extra Feat: Can match the Korasha Lashunta student bonus by taking Skill Synergy
Korasha Lashunta - Limited Telepathy
Human - Extra skill rank every level
Conclusion: Korasha Lashunta is probably better for the low level game (level 10 and under) while the Human, with it's extra skill rank, demolishes the Korasha Lashunta in the later game (Levels 10 and above).
Student is not an Insight bonus, but a Racial one. It thus stacks with everything, making it much better than Skill Synergy.
This is very relevant, and probably better than having one more skill. The big advantage Humans have, IMO, is Spellbane. With the bonus Feat and the ability to grab it they effectively just have it on top of all the Feats they both take.
Spellbane is a huge bonus to Solarians who can get it.
Spellbane is great for just about anyone who can take it. Lashunta being universally unable to do so is one of the hidden downsides with which they pay for all their cool stuff.
Do you think that a class ability similar to the Paladin's divine grace would help with it's save, or would it be unbalanced?
Super unbalanced. Adding additional things to Saves on top of what they can currently get is the kind of thing that really messes with Starfinder's very precisely calibrated math.
I am considering importing my House Rule that anyone can use Cha instead of Wis for Will Saves if they so desire, but that's honestly as much to help say, a Soldier or Mechanic who wants Cha, as much as it is the Solarian.
Do you think that a class ability similar to the Paladin's divine grace would help with it's save, or would it be unbalanced?
Super unbalanced. Adding additional things to Saves on top of what they can currently get is the kind of thing that really messes with Starfinder's very precisely calibrated math.
I am considering importing my House Rule that anyone can use Cha instead of Wis for Will Saves if they so desire, but that's honestly as much to help say, a Soldier or Mechanic who wants Cha, as much as it is the Solarian.
I don't think it would be unbalanced if, and I say IF, they actually expect a character to have a +13 to have a 50% chance to save at level 10-12. As long as there are "Save or Suck" powers this can be a serious problem.
Granted, I'd only give them something that gave them 1/2 of their charisma bonus, but even then I'd be careful.
I don't think it would be unbalanced if, and I say IF, they actually expect a character to have a +13 to have a 50% chance to save at level 10-12. As long as there are "Save or Suck" powers this can be a serious problem.
Granted, I'd only give them something that gave them 1/2 of their charisma bonus, but even then I'd be careful.
Even if that is what you're expected to have, giving a huge bonus (to the tune of +7 to all Saves eventually, +3 even halving it) to that Class and no others is still a serious problem balance-wise among characters.
speaking of saves it seems to me that SF is really brutal (for both PC's and enemies) when it comes to saving throws
It seems like both enemies adn PC's will have a hard time making any throw
That's kinda hard to tell at this point. The CR 13 Necrovite makes Will Saves vs. an optimized level 13 caster (who will have the same Save DC of the Necrovite, which is 24) with a 12 on Fort or Ref and a 6 on Will.
PCs of the same level have +8/+4 base Saves (which would succeed on a 16 and 20 respectively, even sans Ability Scores and items).
A social skill focused Operative of that level (let's say a Detective) will have something like +4/+15/+12 without Feats or Items. Add in Great Fortitude, Spellbane, and a Ring of Resistance +3 and we're talking +11/+17/+14 vs. spells.
That means the Operative would need a 13 to save on a Fort Save, a 7 on Reflex, and a 10 on Will. That's averaging better than 50/50 odds, and not too weird a build.
That's a lower chance than a similarly optimized character in Pathfinder, but not a lower chance than some characters and not so low it's crippling. And that's vs. what may be a higher than average Save DC for the level in question.
speaking of saves it seems to me that SF is really brutal (for both PC's and enemies) when it comes to saving throws
It seems like both enemies adn PC's will have a hard time making any throw
Monsters have it much better against an optimized caster than they did in Starfinder. They'll face much lower DCs.
1. PC spellcasters have had their DCs reined in. They used to be able to start with a 20 and push that to a 24 through character advancement. Now you can only start at an 18 and push it to a 22. That's a -1 to DC.
2. The enhancement bonus from items is the same, but casters face more of an opportunity cost if they go for that full +6 because they can't ever buy it on another stat. Some might choose to boost a secondary stat rather than their casting stat to stay competitive in Dex or a save stat, so that's probably neutral, but sometimes a -1 to DC if you choose not to hyperspecialize.
3. The tomes and wishes for inherent bonuses are gone. That's a -1 to -3 to DC, depending on how your odd numbers came out.
4. (Greater) Spell Focus no longer lets you specialize for better DCs. At high levels Starfinder Spell Focus just compensates for the fact you're a 6th level rather than 9th level caster with inherently lower spell level provided DCs. That's a -2 DC hit for those specializing in a given school.
5. There aren't any spells anymore that give an automatic Shaken/Sickened even on a successful save. (There is a Mindbreaker class ability and a Technomancer hack that do something similar, but they're more limited and cost more resources invested.) That's a +2 to +4 bonus to monsters that used to face this technique.
6. There aren't anymore class abilities like the Mesmerist stare or the Witch's evil eye that give a -2 (or more) to saves.
7. Ill Omen is gone.
PCs also have it much worse against monster DCs.
1. No cloak to boost all resistances. (-1 to -5 to two saves.)
2. No equal enhancement bonuses available to all save stats. (-1 to -3 to one or more saves.)
3. No inherent boosts available to all stats. (-1 to -3 to all save stats late game.)
4. No spells that give flat immunity to things like Dominate Person or Charm Person (but these are balanced with the EAC attack now).
5. No class abilities that give save boosts.
Probably several other things I'm forgetting. In Pathfinder an optimized character could get into autosave territory against many equal CR threats and make enemies have very slim save chances against optimized tactics and specialized abilities. Now everyone is pretty close to 50/50 (adjusted higher or lower for good/bad save) unless they really work at it or really let something slide, and you're not going to get too far away from that even if you screw up or try really hard to do well.
Currently it seems that the Solarian is kinda hampered in the saves department due to their dependence on CHA isntad of wisdom, and a low reflex save
Now A dex focused solar armor build cna mitigate that Due to a High DEX to boost Reflex, but you're still sacrificng CON which hampers FORT, and even with a good base WILL save pumping wisdom is generally not easy for a Solarian to do
again, feats may be able to make up for that but the Solarian doest benefit from bonus feats like the Soldier or the Operative (using tricks) but Soul Furnace can help with that to a degree
but now with how rings of resistance work (which still confuses me someone more intelligent please enlighten me) you're now gonna be able to boost your saves that much. This jsut seems to be my analysis, and I could be talking out my ass
****WARNING - This is a summary of the power. Not the full write up****
Solarian 1st level Revelation
Black Hole (Su)
Allows you to pick and choose targets within 20' of you and pull them towards you 10'. Fort save to resist.
Now at first glance this revelation does not look useful at all....
But, with a bit of thought and coordination with your party this is a great power.
You do not use it to move the bad guys. You use it to move your party members! Any movement made by this revelation does not provoke AO.
Can be used to move people into danger to get full attacks or out of danger to avoid full attacks.
Question about the 2nd level Revelation Photon power -
Radiation (Su)
Creatures within 5' of you need to make a Fort save or be Sickened. Once they leave the 5' they are not sickened any more. If the creature makes the save, they are immune to this effect. This is a Poison effect (See page 415)
Poison
Upon exposure, even if you make the save, you still take DC-10 hit points in damage.
If they fail their save -
Do those within 5' of the Solarian with this up take the Hit point damage every round besides being sickened?
Do they take this damage at the start or end of their turn or the end of the Solarian's turn?
If they make their save -
Do they take the DC-10 hit point damage still and if so would they take damage every round?
Will be asking this in the question part of the forums but figured I'd add it here too.
****WARNING - This is a summary of the power. Not the full write up****
Solarian 1st level Revelation
Black Hole (Su)
Allows you to pick and choose targets within 20' of you and pull them towards you 10'. Fort save to resist.
Now at first glance this revelation does not look useful at all....
But, with a bit of thought and coordination with your party this is a great power.
You do not use it to move the bad guys. You use it to move your party members! Any movement made by this revelation does not provoke AO.
Can be used to move people into danger to get full attacks or out of danger to avoid full attacks.
Question about the 2nd level Revelation Photon power -
Radiation (Su)
Creatures within 5' of you need to make a Fort save or be Sickened. Once they leave the 5' they are not sickened any more. If the creature makes the save, they are immune to this effect. This is a Poison effect (See page 415)
Poison
Upon exposure, even if you make the save, you still take DC-10 hit points in damage.
If they fail their save -
Do those within 5' of the Solarian with this up take the Hit point damage every round besides being sickened?
Do they take this damage at the start or end of their turn or the end of the Solarian's turn?
If they make their save -
Do they take the DC-10 hit point damage still and if so would they take damage every round?
Will be asking this in the question part of the forums but figured I'd add it here too.
Matt - it doesn't do poison damage.
Also, I'm sorry to say, again, Black Hole is a bad power. It isn't good at getting people out of danger as it requires full attunement. Also people could just guarded step away.
I implore people. Please stop trying to prop this power up guys. Bad is bad. There are RARE circumstances where it'll be useful, but they are rare.
I could potentially see Black Hole paired with Great Cleave having some uses (pull a group of mooks in close and wipe them all out in a spinning vortex of doom)
About Radiation -
Wouldn't have even brought it up if it did not have the line about this being a Poison effect.
Black Hole -
While it's still not a good power, it can become a decent power in a tactical sense. This does require effort to set up by party members.
Anywhere to set up flanking, pulling injured people safely away (Step up does not work against this power), to opening up fields of fire for your ranged people.
I could potentially see Black Hole paired with Great Cleave having some uses (pull a group of mooks in close and wipe them all out in a spinning vortex of doom)
Or... Since Supernova is a 10 ft radius, you could just run out and use it. Given that Great Cleave isn't likely to match Supernova's damage output.
Great Cleave minimum level you can get it (as a Solarian) is 5, 4 as a Soldier.
At 5 Supernova does 6d6 fire damage in a 10 ft radius PBAoE
Also there are some curiosities with Solar Weapons that people keep ignoring. The first is that weapon crystals count as weapons (see the book's listing under the weapons entries) and as such are viable for Fusions. Fusions do some funny things to Solar Weapons, particularly the ones that alter the damage types by RAW.
They alter 1/2 of the damage of the weapon. If the weapon already does 2 types of weapon damage you pick which one to eliminate.
Say you are level 6 and using a slashing Solar Weapon with a Photon Least, Weapon Crsytal with the Shock Infusion.
The weapon damage of your Solar Weapon is:
2d6 (Slash) + 1d4 (Fire) - If you hit for 7(2d6) +4(Str) +6(Weapon Spec) +3 (Fire) that is 17 slashing damage and 3 fire damage, or 20 damage total... Unless the person has Fire Resist 5 and DR 3, at which point you instead deal 14 slashing only.
With the infusion, you could set the weapon to deal:
2d6 (Slash) + 1d4 (Shock) - At which case you would have dealt 14 Slashing and 3 Shocking.
Alternatively, you could replace the Slashing and deal 2d6 (Shocking) + 1d4 (Fire) which you would do 17 Shocking damage.
Alternatively, if you had Plasma Sheath you could also supersede the damage and shunt it all to fire, which if an enemy had say DR 3 and 5 Shock, would suddenly deal 17 fire damage.
This does make the weapon more versatile than any other melee weapon in terms of being able to circumvent resistances and damage reductions.
I meant sun bolt. Does it scale in damage when using higher tier solarian crystals?
Nope:
Sunbolt is kinda garbage too, only 1 use every 24 hours and it does mediocre damage. It is just, terribad.
It's once a day then once more every time you spend Resolve for Stamina. So, more like three or four times a day. And it does get a flat +2 to hit.
It's still pretty bad.
It also makes me sad because if feels like its closed off the design space for a third type of Solar Manifestation which would be lobbing bolts of Stellar Energy. I'm afraid that they won't make something like that now because of the danger that it could overshadow Sunbolt.
I have updated the guide, corrected a small bit of math on the sample build for the Lashunta, and added a less int focused Human Build that has (very good) saves.
The human build (at 20 with upgrades) has:
Str 26, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 16, Char 22
Final saves with Ring of Resistance and Spellbane:
Fort +17 (+12+3+2)
Ref +16 (+6+5+5 Ring of Resistance)
Will +17 (+12+3+2)
With a +2 to any save against a spell. It is also drops Skyjockey and Unfriendly Fire for Great Fortitude and Iron Will.
Granting (vs Spells)
Fort +19
Ref +18
Will +19
A maxed out spell at level 20 is:
6th level
A +9 from Stat (22 base +6)
With a +3 from Greater Spell Focus
+10 Base
So: DC 28
You succeed against a maxed out spell on a 9-10, that is about as high as I could bring it.
personally I think the better saves are more than worth it for the slight decrease in mobility using jetpacks (which does anyone find it odd that acrobatics has fly in it?)
