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baggageboy wrote:
It has them, just no one will sell them to you, you don't have the credit (street cred or the money)

Which takes away from a living world and takes away player agency, for a more video game like feel.

I agree with the poster above, I would have preferred to have seen weapons scale with the character.


Stamina that gets replenished quickly with a core set of HP that take longer to regain is not a new system and it has advantages, as well as disadvantages over just basic HP systems.

Overall though, an Envoy is absolutely NOT required in every group, and the idea that youll be bled dry is hyperbole without taking into account encounter size and frequency and difficulty.


But again I concede the point where Starfinder was trying to go, however absolutely dont agree with Space McManns assertion that gear must increase - this is in fact not base DnD is run, with gear HAVING to increase at such a drastic level to keep up with numbers.


MOST games do what you're referring to. The minor +1 to +3 upgardes in DND arent naively tied to the math in -most- systems so you can easily go without upgrades and still continue through more monsters.

5e is amazing for that in that weapon upgrades can be completely avoided, and the math still holds. Damage increases come from the player not the eq.

Most games DONT upgrade weapons as Starfinder does, but instead the character gets better.

So no "In a game system where players level and increase drastically in power by doing so, their equipment must do the same" is entirely false as MOST rpgs dont do that as a requirement. Thats a video game mentality and is not in MOST table top rpgs.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Ah! You're objecting to the whole idea of leveled gear, not the leveled gear/availability connection.

That's a much more defensible position, thematically, and I can only respond with noting that anything that maintains the same equipment doesn't tend to work so well mechanically with a system featuring the vast power level changes in Starfinder. Not if you want equipment to mean anything, anyway.

And they clearly want equipment to be meaningful.

Thank you for the response and seeing my end of the argument. I think you summed up better than I did the disconnect I have with the game. Starfinder definitely pushes equipment being meaningful, just like any "Finder" game or DnD. I on the other hand want less emphasis for theme.

Going forward, instead of calling it a bad system, I think I can just clearly enunciate that the system is gear focused versus my preference.

Also to get around it in the future, perhaps the idea would be to just have them upgrade in downtime, almost like leveling, like the examples given by the other posters such as Luke building his own saber and Jayne with Veras upgrades (again, all between and in downtime). Seems like a good medium.


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Yes, I really liked that star trek episode where Kirk finally upgraded to his plasma caster at the Federation weapon depot.

Fire fly improved so much when Jayne got rid of Vera because he leveled up.

Also I really liked lukes plasma sword upgrades, all 5 of them, throughout the movies. It really creates emotional impact.

Bad mechanic and it stifles role play. Mainly it wasn't a needed mechanic and creates more problems and barriers to rp than it solves.


So much extrapolation just to work around a bad mechanic.


Combat is not the only thing to optimize on a character and that is not "Always the best" use of your 3rd lvl feat.


Even soldiers like long arms.

Heavy weapons can have bigger ammo requirements and lower ammo capacity. Also many are unwieldy which the soldier hates bc of his better triple attack feature, which isn't compatible

It depends on the case.

Honestly I think everyone wants long arms by default except operatives. Then maybe they want heavy but that's more of an individual build choice.


Thats definitely a good tactic also, however its still good to note the shield itself helps you prevent some AoO, in the case that the shield is between you, which there are plenty of reasons for that to happen.


But you do ignore AOO. You have cover, and if you have cover you ignore aoo. Pg 254.

Edit - and I wasnt commenting on light vs heavy, I was just saying your tank build, because theyre using Gravity Shield more, will have more maneuverability by ignoring AoO on the side their shield is facing, which is a small, but neat, bonus.


HWalsh wrote:
Golo wrote:

I appreciate all the work you are doing with this thread and guide.

I'm curious to see the Tankarian concept you mentioned. While photon powers are clearly more damaging and easily fulfill the melee dps role I'm curious to see how much damage is sacrificed for defensive options for your tank graviton build.

A fairly large chunk. At Max level it's like 4 from not being in Photon, 10 from not using Plasma Sheath, 2 from a lower strength - You also have 2 lower save DCs for your lower charisma.

You do need a cybernetic arm though so you're using a 2 handed melee weapon and have an arm free.

You end up with:
12d10+6 (Str) +20 (Weapon Spec) +10 (Deadly Aim)

For a total of: 12d10+36
Vs 18d6+52f

You do tend to have a 43/43 E/KAC base and a situational 46/46 E/KAC with the second use of Gravity Shield.

Dont forget you also ignore AOO so youre even more mobile, for what thats worth.


I like the idea of being able to Supercharge Weapon right before combat as a nice boost, otherwise I agree, its not worth the action.


Away from books but can't you super charge for next s&*# then spell shot with a different spell plus the bonus damage? Does that not work?


I dont consider enhanced resistance a valid feat till we see the nerf its going to get.


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HWalsh wrote:
simplygnome wrote:
pulseoptional wrote:
I need a rehash of a Rifts Juicer. I've been trying to bounce around the ideas in my head for a standard PF way to do it, but I think an SF form might be easier.

Hell yeah - I mean for just pure RP you can probably do it already in SF. Grab the heart upgrade that speeds you up, and the leg speed upgardes, melee soldier and weapon upgrades (Blitz but also Hit and Run seems to work)

Miss me some Rifts. Really want to get the PowerArmor to the point I can play a GlitterBoy =P

I still run Rifts every other Sunday. :)

But oh gods that system is so outdated. Still, that IP and the stories are amazing.


pulseoptional wrote:
I need a rehash of a Rifts Juicer. I've been trying to bounce around the ideas in my head for a standard PF way to do it, but I think an SF form might be easier.

Hell yeah - I mean for just pure RP you can probably do it already in SF. Grab the heart upgrade that speeds you up, and the leg speed upgardes, melee soldier and weapon upgrades (Blitz but also Hit and Run seems to work)

Miss me some Rifts. Really want to get the PowerArmor to the point I can play a GlitterBoy =P


Shinigami02 wrote:
Laydralae wrote:

The range listed is it's range increment and for most weapons the maximum range of a weapon is x10 it's increment. Thrown weapons are x5. For each full range increment between you and the target you take a -2 penalty to your attack. Starfinder Core Rulebook p245

Sniper weapons work a bit different, in that they count as both sniper weapons and single shot longarms. Their range is if using them as a longarm, but if you take time to aim properly then they have the range increment as listed in their Sniper trait. Starfinder Core Rulebook p182

Hope this resolves any questions.

Unfortunately the original issue, that a sling from Pathfinder has better range than low-level weapons, is not resolved by this, because those exact same rules applied in Pathfinder.

Pathfinder ranges should absolutely not be compared. Also note a pistol and a bow deal equivalent damage. Pathfinder has no bearing on ranges of weapons.


Mystic using Plasma Sword is also a more Consular version and works very well.


Awesome I look forward to it


Nono, system design can absolutely encourage or discourage the presence of rule benders and point counters.

I feel Starfinder, atm, strikes a good balance in giving combos and options without having run away leader syndrome.


You also get higher dex saves which is their weakness, and better dex skills. Also you can be both a ranged/melee at any given time, which is pretty huge.


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I can see the potential. What I DONT like is that most classes lose the 2nd and 4th level "special" abilities they get (sans soldier who looses filler).

It takes way too long for some of the base classes (Solarian, Mechanic, TM, and Envoy) to really get thier base schtick going with out a class based ability pick till level 6.


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The Mad Comrade wrote:
simplygnome wrote:
YOU MUST TAKE FIRST LEVEL AS SOLDIER (BLITZ) FOR EVERY BUILD. MUUUSSSTTTTT
You must. You must! YOU MUST! ;)

NUMERICALLY SUPERIOR. THE SWARM DEMANDS GROUP THINK.


So far, I haven't seen any breaking. Some optimization and some strong opinions (especially on Solarians), but nothing too drastic.


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YOU MUST TAKE FIRST LEVEL AS SOLDIER (BLITZ) FOR EVERY BUILD. MUUUSSSTTTTT


Captain is also just an in Game title not a rank, as had been stated.

I plan to have a loud drunken ysoki take the captain roll while he washers useless around the bridge either flirting wth or yelling at the crew (inspire or demand) and will randomly bring up the com and shout insults at the other ship (taunt).

No military title needed. He'll the crew doesn't even have to vote me in, idgaf *drinks More *


HWalsh wrote:


Actually, I wouldn't play the gunner solarian for damage. I'm looking at mobility and utility. Gunner Solarians are going to use the Graviton Revelations a lot more. Graviton sucks for melee... For ranged though... Suddenly it can be borderline overpowered.

Even before a full guide on this, mind sharing how ranged Graviton feels powerful? The basics of the combos or their skills allude me.


Dyslexic Demon wrote:
Shinigami02 wrote:
right, former. I don't know why I get those backwards sometimes but I do.
I know why.

*looks at terrifying picture

*looks at name

jfc.


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Lithert Verloren wrote:
.... mainly that fact that the planet's surface is an inhospitable waste land with a thin, toxic atmosphere and very few plants clinging to life as it is....

Maybe a DUNE style sect, living in rock formations, hunting undead through tunnels that cover the planet?

Its my cannon now...(Canon? *shakes head* Cannon.)


Violet Hargrave wrote:

I'd say Envoy, moreso than any other class, looks like hot garbage if you're looking at it side by side next to any Pathfinder class, but when you get your head around how Starfinder's rules differ the "small" bonuses they toss around are actually quite significant.

It does underwhelm at first level though. Sadly I missed the part of the GenCon demo with ship combat, where they'd shine, and just had to deal with standing still to give small bonuses the rest of the party ignored.

What about that scenario/pregen makes the Envoy shine in starship combat?


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It is underpowered. And there's nothing wrong with that.


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No, its STR. Thats what it does. It gives you amazing melee DPR and awesome athletics checks, which, YES, in a sci fi setting is worth less....Except for being amazing dpr.

Str is fine. There is no reason STR needed to be fixed except for your arbitrary need for it to be so.


Looking at the discussion from many of these similar threads, it seems they probably do.

I think the argument is that you get 6 feats (longarms, heavy weapons, advanced melee, heavy armor, grenades, and sniper weapons), arguably about three of which youd use on any given build, but still.

You get all 6, plus a neat initiative bonus and move speed bonus (bc blitz).

Even if later you spend A feat to get specialization, youre still coming out ahead.

Most classes dont have much that will offset all of that in one level, even casters.

Personally, I think they should have mimicked 5th ed in that multi classing only gives you X benefit for profs and skills, limiting the gain.


Xenocrat wrote:
I'm working on something for Technomancers, which seem to confuse people and have a few really bad magic hacks people should avoid.

When you do, Id be very interested.

There just seems to be a weird disconnect between the magical hacks and the actual spell list that I cant get my head around and they just seem very different than Id expect a technomancer be.


Omnitricks wrote:

My biggest issue is that Starfinder made my favourite rogue technique in Pathfinder completely unusable.

No more going prone as a free action and then, popping up with stand up as yet another free action, making my shots and then going prone again for cover.

Going prone is now a swift action, and the most I can get for standing up is another swift action. *Flips table*

Oh, and then probably something about Lord Asmodeus not becoming one of the 20 main gods but at least Hellknights seem to be a big faction now so I guess it balances out? Except the fact there is no widespread Asmodean lawyer clerics in a futuristic space campaign who would totally draft up contracts for everyone, All we have are the enforcers.

Don't even get me started on non lethal. The way its written now, its basically an impossible endeavor unless the whole party is fully committed and one murderhobo can potentially just ruin everyone's efforts (and then try half a murderhobo party who go "eh, I'll just lethal so I can hit" on an NPC everyone agreed we needed to take alive...)

But cant you still Stand up (from prone) as swift, Fire, then Drop as Move-->Swift to mimic the same thing, ending your turn in prone, wash repeat?


There probably isnt. If you want to drop prone in a fire fight, declare it during your turn.

There are still people shooting at you and its still all in a 6secondish time frame, so "dropping prone when being shot at" is still just simulated by you doing that on your turn.


As a note though, MOST reach weapons, and certainly the most damaging ones, are Unwieldy, meaning they -cannot- make AOO to begin with.

You're mostly stuck using pikes (or the monowhip), and I dont see any non unwieldy reach weapons past level 15, so while its neat, it does seems to stay in balance because of weapon access.


Soldiers Onslaught pg 112.

Don't forget operative is small arms or operative weapons only.


With both of those views taken into consideration, Wouldn't improved GetEm wth either of those other options be better (depending if you want to use up more feats or more improvisations)?


Imbicatus, I totally might be, that's why I was asking.

Denying reactions has utility also.


As a followup Xenocrat (or anyone) is flatfooted even worth attempting in this edition?


An example character under the Envoy(pg 67) shows the scoundrel with both the Clever feint/Clever attack improvisations AND the Improved/Greater Feint feat chain.

For the optimizers out there, what would be the point of this other than attacking/flat-footing one target as a standard action and then flatfooting a second target? Since flatfooted is -just- -2ac and no reaction, is this really worth the resources, in your opinion?

Number crunchers of the internet, show me what I cannot see.