Are the Solarian powers too important to take a level in blitz soldier if I am only leveling to eleven?
Llama_Bill wrote: Are the Solarian powers too important to take a level in blitz soldier if I am only leveling to eleven? For me? Yes. You really want new Revelations ASAP.
I remember playing in a SFS table and the operative player said that his trick shot only worked for himself, and not for the entire party... And that they were gonna FAQ it...
Can someone confirm it?
(im writing this here, because of all the comments on Feint feats)...
the kyokor armor is great but it is expensive
but it does have a lot of armor upgrade slots for tis level
Alassë Edasseril wrote: I remember playing in a SFS table and the operative player said that his trick shot only worked for himself, and not for the entire party... And that they were gonna FAQ it...
Can someone confirm it?
(im writing this here, because of all the comments on Feint feats)...
Cannot confirm, nor deny, I have seen no such conversation on the topic.
Alassë Edasseril wrote: I remember playing in a SFS table and the operative player said that his trick shot only worked for himself, and not for the entire party... And that they were gonna FAQ it...
Can someone confirm it?
(im writing this here, because of all the comments on Feint feats)...
Trick shot from level 1st to 3rd only works for himself and only on that particular attack (no 1 round duration). At 4th level, Operatives gain Debilitating Trick (page 94), which allows it to provide a flat footed condition that benefits everyone in the party, assuming they choose that debuff to apply. They could also choose off-target. Certain other Operative Exploits can substitute different effects for flat-footed or off target.
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Enter the Dragon-Kin
A dragonkin build for the Solarian:
Racial Modifiers: +4 Strength, -2 Dex
Large size, reach, natural flight, a breath weapon, no magic spells, and vision! Yes please!
Starting array:
Array 1: (The Heavy Melee Array)
lvl 01: 18/11/10/10/10/14
lvl 05: 19/13/12/10/12/14
lvl 10: 20/15/14/10/14/14
lvl 15: 21/15/16/10/16/16
lvl 20: 22/15/18/10/18/18
After Upgrades: 28/19/18/10/18/20
This is for the guy who just wants to hit things, your ending Dexterity is 1 lower than needed to cap Heavy Armor and Reflex Saves and you are 1 lower in terms of your DCs for Revelations, but you are loaded for bear when it comes to Stamina (HP: 146 SP: 220) You have the highest possible to-hit bonus in Starfinder (with Weapon Focus) generally putting your +3 over the 50% target zone to hit enemies. Giving you a +30 to hit at level 20 (again, with weapon focus) and your Solar Weapon has reach! Bonus! Coupled with your natural flight speed and you're one beefy dragony Solarian that can even take Spellbane.
Array 2: (The Common Array)
lvl 01: 16/11/10/10/10/16
lvl 05: 18/13/12/10/12/16
lvl 10: 19/15/14/10/14/16
lvl 15: 20/17/16/10/16/16
lvl 20: 20/18/18/10/18/18
Again, a low skill build (which I don't personally like) but this one maximizes defense, saves, and is 1 off from maximum offense. You really can't go wrong with it.
Array 3: (The Jack of All Trades)
lvl 01: 16/13/10/10/10/14
lvl 05: 18/15/12/10/12/14
lvl 10: 18/17/14/12/14/14
lvl 15: 18/18/16/12/16/16
lvl 20: 18/18/18/14/18/18
This is an odd build that doesn't really belong in a Melee Solarian thread or guide, but isn't that bad. It is +1 Attack and Damage lower than the "normal" but still within acceptable limits. It has a massive spread of 18's giving a post upgrades array of: 24/20/18/14/18/22 it has decent skills (6/level) and no real weaknesses.
On top of that, it can also still, as can all Dragon-Kin take Spellbane which is just a great feat if you aren't a Lashunta (their main weakness!)
So this is one more Alien Archives race that can work really well.
Let's look at Save DCs, and thus necessary saves, as well, shall we?
Using the Spellcaster Array (though it's worth noting that the Expert Array has identical Ability DCs):
Level 1: Ability DC 10, Spell DC 13 (-1/+2)
Level 5: Ability DC 15, Spell DC 17 (+4/+6)
Level 10: Ability DC 19, Spell DC 22 (+8/+11)
Level 15: Ability DC 23, Spell DC 25 (+12/14)
Level 20: Ability DC 27, Spell DC 29 (+16/18)
So Spellbane handles the differences between Ability DCs and Spell DCs quite adequately. Good to know.
Solarian builds by your guide, however, lag behind in the Saves area a little if they lack that particular Feat (which Lashunta will definitionally), and lag quite a bit if they don't grab both Great Fortitude and Iron Will.
It is lower than the Necrovite had in First Contact (indeed, the Necrovite itself has gone down in Save DC), but it's still a little higher than is comfortable for a build not focusing on Con and is dumping Wis.
Deadmanwalking wrote: Let's look at Save DCs, and thus necessary saves, as well, shall we?
Using the Spellcaster Array (though it's worth noting that the Expert Array has identical Ability DCs):
Level 1: Ability DC 10, Spell DC 13 (-1/+2)
Level 5: Ability DC 15, Spell DC 17 (+4/+6)
Level 10: Ability DC 19, Spell DC 22 (+8/+11)
Level 15: Ability DC 23, Spell DC 25 (+12/14)
Level 20: Ability DC 27, Spell DC 29 (+16/18)
So Spellbane handles the differences between Ability DCs and Spell DCs quite adequately. Good to know.
Solarian builds by your guide, however, lag behind in the Saves area a little if they lack that particular Feat (which Lashunta will definitionally), and lag quite a bit if they don't grab both Great Fortitude and Iron Will.
It is lower than the Necrovite had in First Contact (indeed, the Necrovite itself has gone down in Save DC), but it's still a little higher than is comfortable for a build not focusing on Con and is dumping Wis.
Yeah, I am noticing that and making the changes needed. I don't like how Paizo have made both Great Fortitude and Iron Will complete requirements, but, well their bad call I guess.
I'm going to be revising things since the AA came out. I don't think the current build is bad, but... It is a pain in the butt...
My skill progression build is simply inadiquate, for now.
16/13/10/10/08/16 is still a good starting array, but I am shifting away to 16/13/10/10/10/14.
Unfortunately because Spellbane may be required, it could kill Lashunta as an option.
16/13/10/10/10/14
18/15/10/10/12/16
19/17/12/12/12/16
20/17/14/12/14/18
20/18/16/14/16/18
This, at the moment, is the best I can do. It seems Solarians are just doomed to have lower than is optimal saves. There is no way to avoid it.
Needing 3 different saves-based Feats is... Ugh... Bad, and Lashunta are simply a bad option. Humans are the way to go now.
Human: Spellbane
1st: Heavy Armor
3rd: Weapon Focus (Solar Weapon)
5th: Nimble Moves
7th: Iron Will
9th: Great Fortitude
Should, by 10th level, get you:
Fort: +10 (+7 +1 +2)
Ref: +9 (+3 +3 +3 (resistance ring)
Will: +10 (+7 +1 +2)
Or +12/+11/+12 against spells.
That is the best I can do right now. Still, even without Spellbane this gives you a 50% chance, and it is *really* hard to get much better right now. I'm wondering if we are even supposed to have a 50% chance given how easy it is to be hit. So requiring a roll of 12 to resist might be what Paizo intends.
On the upshot - This isn't insurmountable on the Lashunta build.
If you started with:
16/13/10/10/08/16
you can still go:
18/15/10/12/08/18
19/17/12/12/10/18
20/17/14/14/12/18
20/18/16/16/14/18
And your saves will be:
Fort: +10
Ref: +9
Will: +9
By level 10 which still lets you pass on a roll of 10. So It is only slightly more problematic. It does mean that I need to move Great Fortitude and Iron Will to Gold as they are now 100% required.
HWalsh, I think that the Haan from Alien Archive are also worth a look as optimal melee Solarions. They're large, have +Strength +Dexterity boosts, and it looks like Photon Mode's bonus to damage roll can apply to their race's natural firespray attack.
HWalsh wrote: Yeah, I am noticing that and making the changes needed. I don't like how Paizo have made both Great Fortitude and Iron Will complete requirements, but, well their bad call I guess. In fairness, this is mostly only true if you don't raise Con and Wis pretty often as you level, something most Classes can afford to do easily, especially if going with ranged combat.
On the subject of races, the Haan and Shobhad both get Int penalties for a total of +4 in Solarian-required stats and are thus pretty solid Solarian options if you don't mind low Int (especially shobhad with their 40 foot movement speed and reach). Sarcesians aren't too bad either (with a net +2 in Solarian stats, reach, and skilled).
Deadmanwalking wrote: HWalsh wrote: Yeah, I am noticing that and making the changes needed. I don't like how Paizo have made both Great Fortitude and Iron Will complete requirements, but, well their bad call I guess. In fairness, this is mostly only true if you don't raise Con and Wis pretty often as you level, something most Classes can afford to do easily, especially if going with ranged combat.
On the subject of races, the Haan and Shobhad both get Int penalties for a total of +4 in Solarian-required stats and are thus pretty solid Solarian options if you don't mind low Int (especially shobhad with their 40 foot movement speed and reach). Sarcesians aren't too bad either (with a net +2 in Solarian stats, reach, and skilled). I like the Shobhad a lot. Extra movespeed is always good, and the reach makes Step Up and Strike no longer mandatory feats.
The int penalty is annoying, but it's the only realistic dump stat for a solarian. Every other stat is tied to our class or modifies saves (which are apparently very important considering spell DCs and the lack of easy save modifier boosts).
Why in the nine hells didn't the devs give solarians their cha to saves? If you're going to shove cha down the classes' throat, at least make is less of a garbage stat.
Dead Suns 2 has the Woioko, which are +2 Cha, -2 Con and either a +2 Str or Dex. They are amphibious subtype with a 30 ft swim and land speed. +2 Culture and Diplomacy. Low-light vision.
Mechanically they are in a similar niche to Lashunta having a penalty to one of their save stats but aren't ineligible for Spellbane.
HWalsh wrote: By level 10 which still lets you pass on a roll of 10. So It is only slightly more problematic. It does mean that I need to move Great Fortitude and Iron Will to Gold as they are now 100% required. I'm not sure this is true. Two feats is a pretty large opportunity cost to go from subpar at something to average at it, when you could use those feats to just get better at what you're already good at. For example, your proposed build delays getting Step Up for one of the +2 saving throw bonuses. However, Step Up gives you the ability to interrupt spell casts with opportunity attacks if you threaten the caster, in addition to being useful in all situations where saving throws aren't a factor. You can make the same argument for the Improved Feint line. You're giving up higher accuracy in all encounters to go from a 40 to 50% chance to save in some encounters.
All of the save feats probably deserve that gold rating, because sometimes those saving throw effects are extremely bad, but I'm not sure they're 100% required. It's going to be largely campaign/GM dependent.
Hiruma Kai wrote: Alassë Edasseril wrote: I remember playing in a SFS table and the operative player said that his trick shot only worked for himself, and not for the entire party... And that they were gonna FAQ it...
Can someone confirm it?
(im writing this here, because of all the comments on Feint feats)...
Trick shot from level 1st to 3rd only works for himself and only on that particular attack (no 1 round duration). At 4th level, Operatives gain Debilitating Trick (page 94), which allows it to provide a flat footed condition that benefits everyone in the party, assuming they choose that debuff to apply. They could also choose off-target. Certain other Operative Exploits can substitute different effects for flat-footed or off target. Thanks for the reply Hiruma!
=)
so is it better to keep using the solar weapon until it levels up
or use a better melee weapon when you find one?
MagicA wrote: so is it better to keep using the solar weapon until it levels up
or use a better melee weapon when you find one?
I mean, if you kill an enemy with a good melee weapon, obviously use it. However, I don't see the point in every spending the significant amount of money required to buy a weapon that beats out your solar weapon progression.
There's so many useful upgrades, augments, and items you can get in Starfinder I don't think it's worth spending money on weapons when your class comes with a scaling weapon mechanic.
Fair enough yeah
than and you can conceal your solar weapon with by dimming your mote
Kind of messing with a really risky build at the moment.
The non-skill, non-int, melee Solarian - Non-Heavy Armor, Solar Armored Solarian.
Shobad: Starting Array
16/16/10/08/10/12
Theme:
16/17/10/08/10/12
05: 18/18/12/08/12/12
10: 19/18/14/08/14/14
15: 20/18/16/08/16/16
20: 20/18/18/10/18/18
Final Adjustments:
26/22/18/10/18/20
Strengths: - Doesn't need to spend a feat on Heavy Armor (However only caps at a 38/38 as opposed to a 41/42 meaning you are getting hit at higher levels by almost every attack no matter what. However you're going Solar Armor with this build.
Your saves are really good as well.
As a Shobad your base movement speed is 40! Score!
You have 4 arms! That can be a huge boon.
Weaknesses: - You get 3 skills per level. Period. Until level 20 then you get 4. If you don't plan on taking part in Space Combat, or if you are going to be the Gunner, that is your only real option and you'll get outshined by the dex focused Soldier. You can potentially be a Pilot too, but you won't be stellar. Regardless, make your choice at level 1.
As it is Starfinder you know you need Perception, so that is 1 skill, you have 2 other skills and that is it.
This can work pretty well, I don't think it is as good as the Melee Solarian with Heavy Armor, but if you really want mobility, nearly maximized damage, and the resistances ain't bad.
The oddest part of this build is that it is one of only a few that uses Graviton Mode as a sort of Switch Hit.
Wait what? Yeah, at maximum level you're giving up 14 damage per hit, but this ain't maximum level. At lower levels, this is much less impactful. As such, with 4 arms, you're able to take unique advantage of Gravity Shield (which can shore up your lower AC) and can use a Doshko without too much concern with your arm getting lopped off. (You can use a Powered Doshko and a Gravity Shield and still have a spare arm.)
The goal of this guy is to enable operation Solarian Shield.
Pop Gravity Shield and rush enemies. Your allies can blast through your Gravity Shield from behind no problem, not so much for enemies. On top of that your reach weapon allows you to give incentive for people to not run past you.
It isn't the best Solarian Build, but it isn't too bad. If you want to be the big dumb guy with a big polearm this is the build for you.
How viable is a Skittermander Solarian who uses Stellar Rush to hug people from across the map?
Ventnor wrote: How viable is a Skittermander Solarian who uses Stellar Rush to hug people from across the map? I think Hug is a Combat Maneuver, so that wouldn't work.
But Skittermanders make great Solarians.
Oh, right, no combat maneuvers on a charge. That sucks.
But being a huggy Solarian is probably a good idea anyway. Make sure that your enemies stay right where they are.
you could stop enemies in there place with standtill
if you want to risk that +8 to KAC
+2 to KAC if you're a Skittermander with Improved Combat Maneuver (Grapple).
This is a bit of a weird build that I have been sent to the guide... I might add it in the final version...
It is the only Solar Armor Full Melee Solarian I have seen... It lacks saves a little and skills but for those that want maximum mobility...
01: 15/18/10/10/10/10
05: 17/19/10/10/12/12
10: 18/20/12/10/12/14
15: 19/21/12/10/14/16
20: 20/22/12/10/16/18
PU: 26/26/14/10/16/18
Saves with a +5 RoR: (This build calls for both Iron Will and Great Fortitude as well as Spellbane.)
Fort +16/+18 (+12 +2 +2)
Reflex +19/+21 (+6 +8 +5)
Will +17/+19 (+12 +3 +2)
I gotta say, it is feat intensive for saves, but I can't argue with results. It makes a good Pilot or Gunner for Space Combat, meaning it is one of the few gunners that can keep up with a Soldier... Which also means you don't need to focus on Pilot, giving you 4 skills for whatever you want to do.
It even gets to the Weapon Damage +52f of the "Standard" Solarian.
Looks like that build takes a hit with resolve points though
MagicA wrote: Looks like that build takes a hit with resolve points though Especially at low levels... At max level though... It is only 2 behind the 22 Charisma Solarian.
Problem is, most games I see that get played is in the mid to low levels. Where the lack of Resolve points hurt.
Matt2VK wrote: Problem is, most games I see that get played is in the mid to low levels. Where the lack of Resolve points hurt. No. I agree with you.
That is one of the reasons Solarians fall behind a little in saves too... If you are going to 20 and you know you are then you can wait until level 20 to get that 14 Int... But most games stop at 12-15.
Seeking some advice -
Running a Human Solarian, stats are -
STR 18, DEX 11, CON 10, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 14
I have pretty much decided to completely ignore bumping up my DEX stat and level bumps would go to STR, CON, WIS, & CHA
With the +6 enhancement for STR, +4 enhancement for CON, +2 enhancement for CHA.
Will pick up the Spellbane Feat and maybe Lightning Reflexes...maybe.
Have not really planned out my feat build for this. Will completely ignore the step up/step up & strike & Nimble moves. Plan on using Tech (jump jets or something like that) to help cover those weakness.
So before making the effort to plan all this out (dropping those 3 feats gives me some room to 'customize' a little). What are people's opinion on completely ignore my DEX?
I know it's going to hurt my AC and the Reflex save will be poor...BUT I'll have a great FORT and WILL save and a decent WIS helps a lot on the god skill perception.
never dump dex in SF
Initiative
reflex
ac
PILOTING
GUNNER
stealth
acrobatics
flying (with said jump jets adn jetpacks)
dex affects so much
Matt2VK wrote: Seeking some advice -
Running a Human Solarian, stats are -
STR 18, DEX 11, CON 10, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 14
I have pretty much decided to completely ignore bumping up my DEX stat and level bumps would go to STR, CON, WIS, & CHA
With the +6 enhancement for STR, +4 enhancement for CON, +2 enhancement for CHA.
Will pick up the Spellbane Feat and maybe Lightning Reflexes...maybe.
Have not really planned out my feat build for this. Will completely ignore the step up/step up & strike & Nimble moves. Plan on using Tech (jump jets or something like that) to help cover those weakness.
So before making the effort to plan all this out (dropping those 3 feats gives me some room to 'customize' a little). What are people's opinion on completely ignore my DEX?
I know it's going to hurt my AC and the Reflex save will be poor...BUT I'll have a great FORT and WILL save and a decent WIS helps a lot on the god skill perception.
Do NOT dump Dex. Ever.
Init, Reflex, Piloting, Gunner, EAC/KAC, do not do it.
Also: rethink Step Up and Step Up and Strike
Technology won't let you get your full attack off and you want your full attack.
Matt2VK wrote: Seeking some advice -
Running a Human Solarian, stats are -
STR 18, DEX 11, CON 10, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 14
I have pretty much decided to completely ignore bumping up my DEX stat and level bumps would go to STR, CON, WIS, & CHA
With the +6 enhancement for STR, +4 enhancement for CON, +2 enhancement for CHA.
Will pick up the Spellbane Feat and maybe Lightning Reflexes...maybe.
Have not really planned out my feat build for this. Will completely ignore the step up/step up & strike & Nimble moves. Plan on using Tech (jump jets or something like that) to help cover those weakness.
So before making the effort to plan all this out (dropping those 3 feats gives me some room to 'customize' a little). What are people's opinion on completely ignore my DEX?
I know it's going to hurt my AC and the Reflex save will be poor...BUT I'll have a great FORT and WILL save and a decent WIS helps a lot on the god skill perception.
Is this SFS, home adventure path? Do you have a fixed party you'll be playing with? What levels are you expecting to play through?
Dex is the best stat in the game, although as a melee combatant, you're basically the only archetype that could even consider get away with ignoring Dex. Levels 1-4 you're 1 point of AC behind, levels 5-9 2 points, and level 10-13, 3 points. Not the end of the world, although not great either.
I'd probably recommend grabbing Improved Initiative at some point to help mitigate being behind in initiative.
I would wield a Taclash in your off hand with your Solar Weapon in primary, to help mitigate not having Step Up and Strike. Numbing Taclash at end game, probably with Entangling, Called, and Ghost Killer fusions.
Keep in mind Spellbane doesn't stack with Graviton mode, as they are both insight. If you're planning on being in Photon the entire time (which I assume is true given the absolute focus on Strength with an 18), the fact that don't stack probably doesn't matter.
In addition to Perception, I'd include Diplomacy and Intimidate as skills, which would at the very least let you act as a Captain, given your gunnery performance is likely to be sub-par to anyone else in the party who takes piloting. You'll probably want to put at least a few skill points into acrobatics for the Jetpack/Forcepack, which basically makes your skills Perception, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Acrobatics.
16 Con at level 10 plus the Toughness feat gets you 110 stamina as opposed to 80-90 stamina, plus the 74 hit points that Hwalsh's human build would have (depending on which 2 stat points he removes from the human build to make it legal). Such a build has roughly 20% more effective hit points. In mobile boss fights (i.e. where they don't get a full attack off each round), that is not that bad compared to -3 to AC. You really will need to avoid melee full attacks by the enemy however, as they'll be significantly more effective against a low AC build.
I'd say its playable, but not optimal. You can certainly make some equipment and feat choices to help mitigate some of the disadvantages. Perhaps focus on DR and energy resistance equipment in the build to combo with Toughness and high Con.
Hiruma Kai wrote:
Is this SFS, home adventure path? Do you have a fixed party you'll be playing with? What levels are you expecting to play through?
This is for a home game running through the Adventure Path.
Party already has a very good pilot, Captain, & Gunner. I'm more of a 5th wheel in that I can sub in as Captain, Science Officer (have ranks in Computers), or a Gunner.
My problem is that while bumping DEX up some, I just can't see the extra +1 to +3 bumping up my DEX bringing as much as bumping WIS up the same amount will. I'm willing to admit DEX is a great stat but as a Solarian in heavy armor I'm suffering from a Armor Check penalty, Reflex is already my lowest save and bumping it won't help much at all. Plus all those good DEX based skills someone else in the party already has them covered.
About Step Up and Step Up & Strike. I've looked at this and have kind of figured that these 2 Feats would be a 1 use per encounter type deal. Too expensive for me. I'd use this feat chain once in a encounter and then the next time the bad guys turn comes around they'd just eat the AO for taking a move action to get away.
Our GMs play the bad guys Smart if they're smart.
Matt2VK wrote: Hiruma Kai wrote:
Is this SFS, home adventure path? Do you have a fixed party you'll be playing with? What levels are you expecting to play through?
This is for a home game running through the Adventure Path.
Party already has a very good pilot, Captain, & Gunner. I'm more of a 5th wheel in that I can sub in as Captain, Science Officer (have ranks in Computers), or a Gunner.
My problem is that while bumping DEX up some, I just can't see the extra +1 to +3 bumping up my DEX bringing as much as bumping WIS up the same amount will. I'm willing to admit DEX is a great stat but as a Solarian in heavy armor I'm suffering from a Armor Check penalty, Reflex is already my lowest save and bumping it won't help much at all. Plus all those good DEX based skills someone else in the party already has them covered.
About Step Up and Step Up & Strike. I've looked at this and have kind of figured that these 2 Feats would be a 1 use per encounter type deal. Too expensive for me. I'd use this feat chain once in a encounter and then the next time the bad guys turn comes around they'd just eat the AO for taking a move action to get away.
Our GMs play the bad guys Smart if they're smart. You're GM isn't playing them smart. He's metagaming them. Either way, Step Up and Step Up and Strike are still forcing them to give you an AoO.
Either:
1. They guarded step, then eat an AoO.
2. They move. Then eat an AoO.
3. They shoot. Then eat an AoO.
Without it they'll guarded step then shoot you, without eating an AoO.
That's an extra hit on every enemy you engage in melee guaranteed. Sometimes an extra hit and a full attack. Totally worth it.
I have a question. Because from what I read so far, Constitution no longer affects the Stamina Points retroactively. So as I understand it, it's best to start with high Con over raising it later? A bump on lvl 20 is almost wasted.
I am asking, because my PF group suffered loses in players and we decided to give SF a try with who is left. And my choice fell on Solarian. And reading through things, I have a few questions, tyat I hope more advanced players can help me with.
Solarian gets the passive bonus to Full Attack lowering the penalty by 1. So I would consider both Step Up as key and the Stellar Rush as key to have. Then... Plasma Sheath is also super good. So... Why are they marked as inferior in the guide? Am I missing some majkr flow in them? I did not read through it fully, just skimmed it over so far. But those two revelations are super important in my opinion. Is the lock in fire damage such a big hit to their viability?
How is fighting with two weapons and full attack calculated? Because it seems, that if you can hold a kinetic weapon in one hand and your solar weapon in the other and use Step Up Mk.2 with a Full Attack, you get 5 attacks a round, I think... 1 from Step Up, then two with each weapon with a Full Attack?
On a last note... Shouldn't it be Str > Cha > Con > Dex > Wis=Int for starting stats and then Str > Dex > Cha > Int > Wis=Con for upgrades? Based on the fact Con mod change will no longer affect your Stamina Pool retroactively.
pg. 26, Core Rulebook wrote: If an ability score increase results in a change to an ability modifier, don't forget to adjust any statistics that rely on that modifier, such as attack bonuses, saving throws, total skill bonuses, Resolve Points, Stamina Points, and the DCs of class features and spells. Note that ability score increases are effective retroactively; when your character's ability score increases, it increases his total number of ability-based statistics-things like Resolve Points, Stamina Points, or skill ranks-as if he had the higher value at previous levels as well. For example, a mechanic with an Intelligence score of 17 has a modifier of +3, and thus gets 7 skill ranks to spend at each level (see Chapter 5). If at 4th level he increases his Intelligence score to 18, he'll have a modifier of +4, and thus get 8 skill ranks to spend from this level forward-but he'll also get 3 additional ranks to assign, reflecting the ranks he would have received if he'd had an Intelligence score of 18 at his first 3 levels. Interestingly it looks like it slipped past the editors that this mentions 4th level instead of 5th. But yes, you do get stamina retroactively for increasing your CON.
NaeNae wrote: I have a question. Because from what I read so far, Constitution no longer affects the Stamina Points retroactively. So as I understand it, it's best to start with high Con over raising it later? A bump on lvl 20 is almost wasted. Con is retroactive.
Quote: Solarian gets the passive bonus to Full Attack lowering the penalty by 1. So I would consider both Step Up as key and the Stellar Rush as key to have. Then... Plasma Sheath is also super good. So... Why are they marked as inferior in the guide? They're not. Plasma Sheath, Stellar Rush, Step Up, and Step Up And Strike are all rated as Gold options. In my guide's color scheme that is the best option, not an inferior one.
Quote: Am I missing some majkr flow in them? I did not read through it fully, just skimmed it over so far. But those two revelations are super important in my opinion. Is the lock in fire damage such a big hit to their viability? You just didn't read the guide's first page which explained the color code. Because Starfinder is not Pathfinder I intentionally didn't use the common color codes used in Pathfinder guides.
Quote: How is fighting with two weapons and full attack calculated? Because it seems, that if you can hold a kinetic weapon in one hand and your solar weapon in the other and use Step Up Mk.2 with a Full Attack, you get 5 attacks a round, I think... 1 from Step Up, then two with each weapon with a Full Attack? Starfinder doesn't give extra attacks while multi-weapon fighting. Multi-Weapon Fighting in Starfinder, if you have the feat, reduces the full attack penalty by 1 so long as you are only using Operative weapons. Solar Weapon is not an Operative weapon.
Quote: On a last note... Shouldn't it be Str > Cha > Con > Dex > Wis=Int for starting stats and then Str > Dex > Cha > Int > Wis=Con for upgrades? Based on the fact Con mod change will no longer affect your Stamina Pool retroactively. Nope. Str > Cha > Dex > Con > Wis > Int
Stamina is affected retroactively.
HWalsh wrote: NaeNae wrote: *snip* Con is retroactive. My mistake... I was certain I read somewhere that it's not. As I haven't had a good look through the pdf yet, I went on what I read in the webs. I will check the info better next time.
HWalsh wrote: NaeNae wrote: *snip* They're not. Plasma Sheath, Stellar Rush, Step Up, and Step Up And Strike are all rated as Gold options. In my guide's color scheme that is the best option, not an inferior one. HWalsh wrote: NaeNae wrote: *snip* You just didn't read the guide's first page which explained the color code. Because Starfinder is not Pathfinder I intentionally didn't use the common color codes used in Pathfinder guides. My mistake again... I was used to the Purple/Pink > Blue > Green > Yellow > Red. I assumed as if it was another X-finder, people will use the same coding. That solves a lot of my confusion while reading the guide.
HWalsh wrote: NaeNae wrote: *snip* Starfinder doesn't give extra attacks while multi-weapon fighting. Multi-Weapon Fighting in Starfinder, if you have the feat, reduces the full attack penalty by 1 so long as you are only using Operative weapons. Solar Weapon is not an Operative weapon. So technically the whole idea of fighting with two weapons is gone? Like... I know there is this Multi-Weapon Fighting feat which says "Benefit: When you make a full attack with two or more small arms or with two or more operative melee weapons, reduce the penalty for making a full attack by 1." So that would hint it is possible to make a Full Attack with multiple weapons. It clearly says "full attack with two or more" not "full attack while holding two or more". Then again it applies to Small Arms and Operative weapons only, so is not relevant here for Solarians.
HWalsh wrote: NaeNae wrote: *snip* Nope. Str > Cha > Dex > Con > Wis > Int Same as above, did not check the roles, just read the webs. Still Resolve Points, AC and Initiative outshine the tiny ammount of bonus Stamina Points early imo. If Constitution is retroactive, it's best left at 10 early on considering Solarian's good Fortitude save.
NaeNae wrote:
My mistake again... I was used to the Purple/Pink > Blue > Green > Yellow > Red. I assumed as if it was another X-finder, people will use the same coding. That solves a lot of my confusion while reading the guide.
No worries. Happens to a lot of people.
NaeNae wrote:
So technically the whole idea of fighting with two weapons is gone? Like... I know there is this Multi-Weapon Fighting feat which says "Benefit: When you make a full attack with two or more small arms or with two or more operative melee weapons, reduce the penalty for making a full attack by 1." So that would hint it is possible to make a Full Attack with multiple weapons. It clearly says "full attack with two or more" not "full attack while holding two or more". Then again it applies to Small Arms and Operative weapons only, so is not relevant here for Solarians.
Well, in Starfinder, full attacking works differently than in Pathfinder.
Pathfinder used an iterative mechanic for full attacking. Every 6 bab you got a new attack. So +6/+1, +12/+6/+1, +18/+12/+6/+1
Starfinder uses a flat applied penalty system on full attacks.
A full attack allows you to make two (2) attacks, but each attack has a -4 penalty applied to it. Some classes have abilities that modify this. The Solarian, for example, at a certain level, gets to reduce that penalty by 1. They later can attack 3 times, but raises the base penalty to -6.
If you have multi-weapon fighting, and are using two operative weapons, in Starfinder, on a Solarian, and you have the Solarian's "Flashing Strikes" ability, and you made 2 attacks, one with each weapon you are holding, instead of -3/-3 as a normal Solarian would have with Flashing Strikes, you'd have -2/-2.
The benefit from Multi-Weapon Fighting only applies if you attack, at least once, with each weapon.
I know the reduction of the penalty by 1 doesn't seem like much, it is in effect a situational +1 to attack. However since, outside of class abilities like Flashing Strikes, attack bonuses are so hard to come by in Starfinder, currently the only static ways are through Ability Score bonus, Base Attack Bonus, and the Weapon Focus feat, it is significant.
This is a stark contrast to Pathfinder, where there were tons of ways to get attack bonuses, the least of which was just from masterwork and magical weapon bonuses. That doesn't exist in Starfinder.
So while the concept isn't dead, there is less of a focus on it. If they ever do add a way to Multi-Weapon attack with single handed advanced melee weapons, you can expect to hear a lot of players to scream bloody murder, as the Solar Weapon is the most damaging single handed Advanced Melee weapon in the game once Solarian Weapon Crystals come into effect.
Makes sense. But the only application of Multi Weapon Fighting is when you use a snall arms in one hand and dagger in the other. And Full Attack one enemy in melee and another in range.
As fir the guide, Solar Weapon is an Advanced Melee Weapon. So the Weapo Focus should be for those, not for a Solar Weapon itself. At least that's how I understand the part - "Your Solar weapon functions as a one-handed kinetic advanced melee weapon, and you’re automatically proficient with it."
NaeNae wrote: Makes sense. But the only application of Multi Weapon Fighting is when you use a snall arms in one hand and dagger in the other. And Full Attack one enemy in melee and another in range.
As fir the guide, Solar Weapon is an Advanced Melee Weapon. So the Weapo Focus should be for those, not for a Solar Weapon itself. At least that's how I understand the part - "Your Solar weapon functions as a one-handed kinetic advanced melee weapon, and you’re automatically proficient with it."
That is correct, technically the Weapon Focus is for Advanced Melee Weapons.
Which is great because it applies to the thrown starknife you keep for a ranged attack.
And incorrect, you can use 1 small arm and 1 operative melee weapon, 2 operative melee weapons, or 2 small arms. You don't have to just use one small arm and one operative weapon.
HWalsh wrote: NaeNae wrote: Makes sense. But the only application of Multi Weapon Fighting is when you use a snall arms in one hand and dagger in the other. And Full Attack one enemy in melee and another in range.
As fir the guide, Solar Weapon is an Advanced Melee Weapon. So the Weapo Focus should be for those, not for a Solar Weapon itself. At least that's how I understand the part - "Your Solar weapon functions as a one-handed kinetic advanced melee weapon, and you’re automatically proficient with it."
That is correct, technically the Weapon Focus is for Advanced Melee Weapons.
Which is great because it applies to the thrown starknife you keep for a ranged attack.
And incorrect, you can use 1 small arm and 1 operative melee weapon, 2 operative melee weapons, or 2 small arms. You don't have to just use one small arm and one operative weapon. Well yes, but if holding two knives does not give you any bonus attacks when performing a full attack, it would be limiting in options to pick them over a pistol and knife. But hey, fluff is more important to me than optimisation :)
NaeNae wrote: HWalsh wrote: NaeNae wrote: Makes sense. But the only application of Multi Weapon Fighting is when you use a snall arms in one hand and dagger in the other. And Full Attack one enemy in melee and another in range.
As fir the guide, Solar Weapon is an Advanced Melee Weapon. So the Weapo Focus should be for those, not for a Solar Weapon itself. At least that's how I understand the part - "Your Solar weapon functions as a one-handed kinetic advanced melee weapon, and you’re automatically proficient with it."
That is correct, technically the Weapon Focus is for Advanced Melee Weapons.
Which is great because it applies to the thrown starknife you keep for a ranged attack.
And incorrect, you can use 1 small arm and 1 operative melee weapon, 2 operative melee weapons, or 2 small arms. You don't have to just use one small arm and one operative weapon. Well yes, but if holding two knives does not give you any bonus attacks when performing a full attack, it would be limiting in options to pick them over a pistol and knife. But hey, fluff is more important to me than optimisation :) It does grant you a bonus, just not a bonus attack. What it does do is reduce the penalties of a full attack by 1 if you have the MWF feat.
There is a Solarian build, for example, that does use this. It isn't as high damage as a Solar Weapon build, but has great accuracy and defenses.
The Oparian:
01: 10/18/10/10/10/14
05: 10/19/12/12/12/14
10: 10/20/14/12/14/16
15: 10/21/16/14/16/16
20: 10/22/18/14/18/18
PU: 10/26/20/14/24/18
Solar Armor
Uses Small Arms and Operative Melee, dual wielding all the way. Damage is rather poor.
At max level its saves are phenomenal.
Fort: +17 (12+5)
Ref: +19 (6+8+5)
Will: +19 (12+7)
Combine with Great Fortitude and Spellbane and you're rocking a sweet +21 vs any spell.
Remember you won't regularly see higher than a DC 25 (10+9+6) DC so very few things are going to stick. You've got good resists too. Not too shabby.
On top of that you can full attack for 3 attacks dual weapon fighting with only a -4 instead of a -6 when using the feat. Or for a -2 instead of a -4.
I'm pretty sure Flashing Strikes called out Advanced Melee weapons, so it won't stack with the multiweapon feat.
Jack Rift wrote: I'm pretty sure Flashing Strikes called out Advanced Melee weapons, so it won't stack with the multiweapon feat. Nope, its just melee weapons in general.
From the CRB:
"Your mastery of melee combat allows you to make multiple attacks more accurately. When making a full attack entirely with melee weapons, you take a -3 penalty to each attack roll instead of the normal -4."
The weird thing about the Oparian is that it works fairly well at lower levels...
Using (one handed kinetic weapons) levels 1, 7, and 12 as benchmarks and assuming the same attack stat... (assuming an 18, but a 16 is likely just as probable)
Level 1:
Survival Knife 1d4+4 (avg. 6-7)
Solar Weapon 1d6+4 (avg. 7-8)
Longsword 1d8+4 (avg. 8-9)
Level 7: (assuming that Plasma Sheath is engaged and +2 PU)
Tactical Knife 2d4+11f (avg. 16f)
Solar Weapon (Gluon, least) 2d6+1d4+18f (avg. 27-28f)
Sintered Longsword 2d8+18f (avg. 27f)
Level 12: (assuming that Plasma Sheath if engaged and +4 PU)
Utrathin Dagger 4d4+19f (avg. 29f)
Solar Weapon (Gluon, lesser) 4d6+2d6+25f (avg. 46f)
Ultrathin Longsword 4d8+25f (avg. 43f)
And, at this point, the Operative weapons do lag behind, but hit much more often... However... And this is important... For adding 2 to the difficulty, which is counter-acted by -1 for Flashing Strikes and -1 for Multi-Weapon fighting, we can also raise the 7 and 12 operative weapons up a little with Deadly Aim...
Tactical Knife 2d4+14f (avg. 19f)
Utrathin Dagger 4d4+25f (avg. 35f)
It still lags behind... No doubt... But it isn't non-viable. It also still hits harder than comparable pew-pew weapons so... I wouldn't really do it for a melee build... BUT it wouldn't completely gimp you in something like SFS.
Due to real life events, I doubt I'll be making further tweaks or updates to the Melee Solarian Guide. I recommend saving it for personal use. If someone wants to take it, convert it, or what not let me know. I just don't know right now.
~Henry
One question, can I use charge with flight?
I am choosing a race for solarian focused on strength and I am in doubt between Dragonkin and Shobhad, I am inclined to Dragonkin because of the flight, so my question about charge and flight.
I intend to take Heavy Armor Proficiency in the first level and Step Up in the third and Step Up and Strike in the sixth to enjoy the reach of both races. Is it worth investing in this sequence of feats and races?
As I said I am more inclined to Dragonkin mainly if charge run with flight.
And can I use Stelar Rush with the Dragonkin flight?
Grateful!
Again, any mistake is the fault of Google Translate.
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