non-proficiency and ACP

[John Murdock]

hello everybody

i was told by a friend that if you are not proficient in an armour or shield that you get the ACP two time to your skill and i am like no its not true.

so my question is do we get two time the ACP to your skill check or only once?

thank you in advance for your answer.

[David knott 242]

According to the PRD, lack of proficiency with armor simply causes its armor check penalty to apply to attack rolls as well as to physical skill checks. If you are proficient with the armor, its armor check penalty applies only to the physical skill checks.

[Java Man]

From the CRB, equipment chapter, armor section:

"Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for shields."

So no double ACP. If my foggy memory is correct your friend is recalling a 3.5 rule.

[David knott 242]

The D&D 3.5 SRD says exactly the same thing as the Pathfinder PRD in this regard.

[Java Man]

Goes to show you, fuzzy pets good, fuzzy memmories bad.

[Jeraa]

Java Man wrote:

Goes to show you, fuzzy pets good, fuzzy memmories bad.

Not entirely bad. There was one place that 3.5 did double the ACP. That was the Swim skill. But that had nothing to do with proficiency.

So you didn't entirely make something up. Just partly.

[Faan]

I've found many people often forget that the non-proficiency penalty also applies to your Initiative.

My Life Oracle has something like a –11 modifier. I like to go last =).

[Murdock Mudeater]

The notable loophole with armor check penalty is that abilites/effects which change the required ability score to a non Str/Dex based ability/skill check, will not be affected by armor check penalty.

For example, taking Irori's Wisdom in Flesh trait will allow a single dex/str based skill to use wisdom instead. As a now wisdom based skill, Armor Check Penalty doesn't apply to that skill.

Regarding non-proficency loopholes specifically, the key here is that if the armor check penalty is reduced to zero, then there is no non-proficency penalty (effectively). The classic Mithral Shirt, for example, has an armor check penalty of zero, so effectively doesn't require armor training.

[Lady-J]

Faan wrote:

I've found many people often forget that the non-proficiency penalty also applies to your Initiative.

My Life Oracle has something like a –11 modifier. I like to go last =).

except it doesn't apply to initiative anymore than it does to reflex saves

[Jurassic Pratt]

Lady-J wrote:

Faan wrote:

I've found many people often forget that the non-proficiency penalty also applies to your Initiative.

My Life Oracle has something like a –11 modifier. I like to go last =).

except it doesn't apply to initiative anymore than it does to reflex saves

He's actually right Lady-J.

Armor Check Penalty wrote:

Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dex– and Str-based ability and skill checks

Initiative wrote:

An initiative check is a Dexterity check

[Lady-J]

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

Lady-J wrote:

Faan wrote:

I've found many people often forget that the non-proficiency penalty also applies to your Initiative.

My Life Oracle has something like a –11 modifier. I like to go last =).

except it doesn't apply to initiative anymore than it does to reflex saves

He's actually right Lady-J.

Armor Check Penalty wrote:

Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dex– and Str-based ability and skill checks

Initiative wrote:

An initiative check is a Dexterity check

it is a dexterity check it is not a dexterity ability check

[Jurassic Pratt]

That's not a distinction that exists. Ability checks are always referred to by their ability. Nowhere in print will you find something that says make a "strength ability check" or a "dexterity ability check", they simply say strength check and dexterity check.

A Dexterity check is an ability check, and initiative is a dexterity check. If you want to houserule that, then fine, but that's not what the rules say.

[Lady-J]

an ability check would be "i need to you roll a dex ability check to not mess up the tattoo you are giving the barbarian" or "i need you to make a wisdom ability check to remember a particular detail" they are a flat d20 roll plus your modifier an initiative roll is an initiative roll and a reflex save is a save if you rule one to be an ability check(and thus apply armor check penalty to it) simply because its an ability that uses dex to make the check then you must also apply it to all other things that would then be classified as "abilities" that require dex including but not limited to reflex saves, attack rolls using dex to hit, damage rolls using dex to damage, ect.

[John Murdock]

Lady-J the CRB say that an initiative check is a dexterity check, so any thing that give you a bonus/penalty to ability check apply to initiative.

when you make an initiative check in reality you make a dexterity check

[Ierox]

I'm with Jurassic prat and John Murdock on this one. The RAW is very clear.

I like this rule, as it prevents divine and psychic spellcasters who don't think they're going to make touch attacks from just suiting up in fullplate and tower shields without proficiency and not getting any penalties for it.

Everyone cares about initiative.

Interestingly, it also means that people with the Noble Scion of War feat can use circlets of persuasion to boost their initiatives, which is hella cool.

[Faan]

Yeah. When I give the GM my modifier at the beginning of the game there's often at least one "How?" at the table.

Playing my Oracle has almost been like a public service announcement on Initiative ^_^

[Ierox]

Faan wrote:

Yeah. When I give the GM my modifier at the beginning of the game there's often at least one "How?" at the table.

Playing my Oracle has almost been like a public service announcement on Initiative ^_^

Oooh, you've made one of those Charisma errythang style builds? Cool.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Faan wrote:

I've found many people often forget that the non-proficiency penalty also applies to your Initiative.

My Life Oracle has something like a –11 modifier. I like to go last =).

You can always delay. But yeah, non-proficency in heavy armor or tower shields can be very crippling.

If you can change the dex to intiative to another stat, then you could bypass it's affect on initiative. Won't help with attack rolls or every skill affected, but there are options if you really aren't willing to take the proficency feats but really want those armors.

I am curious what your life oracle's build is, which justifies the -11 penalty..

[KingOfAnything]

The two or three feats it would take to get back to a +0 init are probably better spent improving your spellcasting.

[John Murdock]

instead of taking a lot of feat for proficiency always take a dip in fighter, lot of proficiency and a bonus combat feat, always good

[Faan]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

I am curious what your life oracle's build is, which justifies the -11 penalty.

Oops! Wrong character. My Life Oracle used to have a really low modifier. Now it's just –2: –1 Dex, –1 ACP (Heavy Piecemeal Armor enchanted with Comfort).

The PC I'm thinking of is my Core Gnome Cleric, wearing Mithral Fullplate and a Darkwood Tower Shield: +1 Dex, –3 Armor, –8 Shield.

So –10 for him total.

Ierox wrote:

Oooh, you've made one of those Charisma errythang style builds? Cool.

Nah. Just a Charisma caster.

[Murdock Mudeater]

John Murdock wrote:

instead of taking a lot of feat for proficiency always take a dip in fighter, lot of proficiency and a bonus combat feat, always good

Depends if your group has a level cap or not. For PFS, typical max level is 12 (it can go beyond, but doesn't often). A level dip in fighter means 1 less level in spellcasting and in class abilities, which can hurt enough to make the feats worth wasting on things like this. But depends on the build.

And the big loss is when the party doesn't have a cleric that can raise dead because their cleric keeps level dipping (I've been in that party a few times).

In a home game, where the GM doesn't care about a level cap and just keeps increasing the CR, level dips are cheap options for spellcasters.

[Ierox]

Thing is, you gotta balance the level bit against the spells and caster level you could have instead. It's seldom worth it.

[andreww]

John Murdock wrote:

instead of taking a lot of feat for proficiency always take a dip in fighter, lot of proficiency and a bonus combat feat, always good

If you are a charisma focused, casting Oracle never do this, it is a terrible idea. A feat is a far smaller investment than losing a caster level and delaying spell progression even further.

[Murdock Mudeater]

andreww wrote:

John Murdock wrote:

instead of taking a lot of feat for proficiency always take a dip in fighter, lot of proficiency and a bonus combat feat, always good

If you are a charisma focused, casting Oracle never do this, it is a terrible idea. A feat is a far smaller investment than losing a caster level and delaying spell progression even further.

And don't forget losing a level towards the revelations and towards the curse.

[John Murdock]

its just one lvl its not that much, better losing one lvl progression and still have all those feat to help you better your build, its not if i have said take 7 fighters lvl so you can move normally in heavy armour.