Starfinder versus pathfinder Vote: Hitpoints vrs stamina et. all.


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Alright So going from hit points an abstract way to represent Damage.
with starfinder we have 2 abstract ways to represent two kinds of damage (however I don't feel like it is any less abstract). Some of the advantages Of the new stamina/resolve system is the ability to heal up between combat much easier and make it slightly easier to keep track of hp since you no longer have to track how far you go into the negatives.
No more need to have a cleric or some such running around with a healing wand.

I think I like the new way better so far. what do you think?


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Vote here for Pathfinder HP


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Vote here for starfinder stamina, hp, and resolve.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would like to add, in starfinder it looks like, assuming I read correctly, when you take nonlethal it is added like lethal. Only that if nonlethal takes you to zero than you are unconscious but stable. In pathfinder you had to track that separately. Which was a bit to much.


How does one vote? via favoriting or something?

starfinder in either case so i[ll assume favorite


Yes favorite away good sir!


I prefer the Pathfinder way, if only because I feel Starfinder's Stamina is poorly tacked on.
Starfinder's split doesn't make much sense if at all to me. If you're attacked by a low level flame doshko at high levels, you can lose all your extremities to severe wound crits without losing any HP, only SP, completely shrugging that off on your next 10 minute rest.
Mechanics simply don't support the supposed thematic split at all, and it's also weird that PC's are the only ones who have Stamina.
It would have been much simpler if there was only one pool - Hit Points, while Resolve Points provided a set amount of healing on a 10 minute rest.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I agree that only pc’s and maybe some baddies will have stamina. Seems very one sided. Does make using nonlethal to capure the baddies to interrogate a more viable option.


Noodlemancer wrote:

I prefer the Pathfinder way, if only because I feel Starfinder's Stamina is poorly tacked on.

Starfinder's split doesn't make much sense if at all to me. If you're attacked by a low level flame doshko at high levels, you can lose all your extremities to severe wound crits without losing any HP, only SP, completely shrugging that off on your next 10 minute rest.
Mechanics simply don't support the supposed thematic split at all, and it's also weird that PC's are the only ones who have Stamina.
It would have been much simpler if there was only one pool - Hit Points, while Resolve Points provided a set amount of healing on a 10 minute rest.

Hmm maybe the thing to of done would of been to have some attack forms bypass stamina such as dismembering attacks and fall damage?


Micheal Smith wrote:
I agree that only pc’s and maybe some baddies will have stamina. Seems very one sided. Does make using nonlethal to capure the baddies to interrogate a more viable option.

On the NPC's not having stamina thing. I think that is because it would be unnecessary. More likely then not your npc,s are not going to finish the combat then go and take a 10 minute rest and attack the party again. Even if they did as the dm you could just say they healed up or w/e no need to track their resources like you would need to for a PC.


I'm glad their is some discussion on this one. pretty much everyone seemed to be all in for the BAB changes on the other vote thread I made.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Micheal Smith wrote:
I agree that only pc’s and maybe some baddies will have stamina. Seems very one sided. Does make using nonlethal to capure the baddies to interrogate a more viable option.
On the NPC's not having stamina thing. I think that is because it would be unnecessary. More likely then not your npc,s are not going to finish the combat then go and take a 10 minute rest and attack the party again. Even if they did as the dm you could just say they healed up or w/e no need to track their resources like you would need to for a PC.

That’s why I didn’t mentioned them. I’ll clarify baddies as being the villains monsters henchmen, and combat based character really. Other than NPC.


Ah Ok I read that wrong.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Either way I like the concept of the system but concepts and reading are one thing vs actual playing. I haven’t had the chance to play yet so we shall see.


Micheal Smith wrote:
Either way I like the concept of the system but concepts and reading are one thing vs actual playing. I haven’t had the chance to play yet so we shall see.

That is fair. I guess i'll start putting that as a disclaimer for my little vote threads.

Grand Lodge

I prefer the Pathfinder way. I dislike having 2 different pools/names for something that's basically the same thing. If you like the ability to heal up after a short rest it'd be easy to simply say that you heal X amount of hitpoints on a short rest.

I also feel that Non-lethal damage is done terribly in Starfinder since only the "killing" attack being non-lethal matters.


I just thought of an interesting idea that would make sense However it takes away from simplicity. Your stamina should be reduced by your current damage you have on your hp. I think it makes sense that injuries would slow you done and drain your stamina quicker.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I see it that it really doesn't matter if you get hit with lethal or nonlethal. It all still adds up. But I see where you are coming from to a degree.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

When I first heard that there was going to be a Stamina pool I was hoping that it would function in a way that could effect your character. The more it drain the less you could do or movement was hampered. I could see that nonlethal could target stamina and lethal hit HP.

I did like the concept of the wounds that came out in Unchained. That makes sense but it awesome complicates things greatly.


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Micheal Smith wrote:

When I first heard that there was going to be a Stamina pool I was hoping that it would function in a way that could effect your character. The more it drain the less you could do or movement was hampered. I could see that nonlethal could target stamina and lethal hit HP.

I did like the concept of the wounds that came out in Unchained. That makes sense but it awesome complicates things greatly.

Maybe be fatigued or exhausted when you run out of stamina or some such? I think they just didn't want to over complicate it. That is my impression anyways.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Micheal Smith wrote:

When I first heard that there was going to be a Stamina pool I was hoping that it would function in a way that could effect your character. The more it drain the less you could do or movement was hampered. I could see that nonlethal could target stamina and lethal hit HP.

I did like the concept of the wounds that came out in Unchained. That makes sense but it awesome complicates things greatly.

Maybe be fatigued or exhausted when you run out of stamina or some such? I think they just didn't want to over complicate it. That is my impression anyways.

Exactly and then eventually could pass out or something to that effect. But yea that could get super complicated and all.


Same with things like fall damage. it would make sense to me if fall damage went right to HP instead of stamina but they probably didn't want to have to make a further complication to the rules that some people might not even notice or find in the book.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Actually I could see fall damage hitting both. Maybe do a half and half. I already read through Chapter 8 2 times. I skipped over vehicle combat an all for now. I hope in society that they don't through that at you in the first few scenarios. I want to be pretty proficient with standard combat and all first.


This post is caveated that so far I have only played a single session and that was Fugitive on the Red Plant.

I played a Healing Mystic on the basis that it looked like there was less readily available healing in SFS compared to PFS. No just buying a wand after your first adventure and being able to start every encounter at full health necessarily.

What I hadn't realised is that all of the mystic healing only heals Hit Points, not Stamina. That makes judging when healing is needed much trickier, especially playing online when such information may not be immediately visible.

It also places PCs at a lot more risk as the buffer between "needs actual healing" and "lying on the ground dying" is much smaller.

It is quite a big difference and I haven't yet decided how I feel about it. It has made me look more carefully at the Envoy which can do in combat Stamina healing which may be a lot more valuable than I had thought it would be.


Oh I did not know that I assumed abilities that healed hit points also healed stamina. That is a bit different then I was thinking. I kind of like it.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

See I did notice that about the Mystic. Thats why I built one. Would love to have a Solider Body Guard to travel with him. I have 0 interest in the Envoy at the time being.


andreww wrote:

This post is caveated that so far I have only played a single session and that was Fugitive on the Red Plant.

I played a Healing Mystic on the basis that it looked like there was less readily available healing in SFS compared to PFS. No just buying a wand after your first adventure and being able to start every encounter at full health necessarily.

What I hadn't realised is that all of the mystic healing only heals Hit Points, not Stamina. That makes judging when healing is needed much trickier, especially playing online when such information may not be immediately visible.

It also places PCs at a lot more risk as the buffer between "needs actual healing" and "lying on the ground dying" is much smaller.

It is quite a big difference and I haven't yet decided how I feel about it. It has made me look more carefully at the Envoy which can do in combat Stamina healing which may be a lot more valuable than I had thought it would be.

Healing is very readily available though. Mk 1 Healing Serums are much cheaper than healing potions ever were in relation to your expected wealth, allowing you to buy inordinate amounts of them, potentially hauling entire carts of them on missions. To boot, they are explicitly mass-produced and so common they're sold in vending machines almost everywhere.


But it does not work on Sta.


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Jurassic Pratt wrote:
I prefer the Pathfinder way. I dislike having 2 different pools/names for something that's basically the same thing. If you like the ability to heal up after a short rest it'd be easy to simply say that you heal X amount of hitpoints on a short rest.

This. 5e D&D and even 4e handle this better.

Effectively Doubling HP on the already bloated 3rd edition chassis is also a bloody awful decision.

Liberty's Edge

Voss wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
I prefer the Pathfinder way. I dislike having 2 different pools/names for something that's basically the same thing. If you like the ability to heal up after a short rest it'd be easy to simply say that you heal X amount of hitpoints on a short rest.

This. 5e D&D and even 4e handle this better.

Effectively Doubling HP on the already bloated 3rd edition chassis is also a bloody awful decision.

Doubling is an exaggeration. With Con 14 a Fighter would have 184 HP at 20th or so assuming Favored Class into HP. 244 if he had a +6 Con item (a basic assumption at that level). 284 if he uses Wishes or Tomes on Con.

An actual max, for a Con 20 Barbarian using the same stuff, Toughness, and Raging Vitality, is actually 485 HP.

A 20th level Human Soldier, getting Con 18 eventually (as much as most will invest) will have 144 HP and 220 Stm. Total 364.

The actual max is Con 28, Toughness, and a race with 6 HP, and is 146 HP and 340 Stm. Total 506.

That's like 1.5 times HP at best, and the theoretical maximum is only slightly different.

Even at low levels, we're talking a difference of less than double even assuming equal stats (and at low levels, the way point-buy works tends to drop Con a bit as compared to Pathfinder).

Besides which, 'rocket tag' was by far the most common issue I heard about (and experienced) in both high level play and for 1st level characters. Removing that tendency seems a worthy goal.


364 vs 184 is almost exactly double, and you assumed HP FCB, which feels unlikely to me. Just saying.
If you compare 224 (without HP FCB, but with a +6 CON item) to 384 (assuming a +2 personal upgrade in CON at level 20, which feels likely), it's also almost double.


Noodlemancer wrote:
364 vs 184 is almost exactly double, and you assumed HP FCB, which feels unlikely to me. Just saying.

That is without adding items. I don't think they have con boosting items in SF. plus he gave the fighter a lower con then the soldier so you'd have to add another 40 hp to that total to put them on evener ground.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Noodlemancer wrote:
364 vs 184 is almost exactly double, and you assumed HP FCB, which feels unlikely to me. Just saying.
That is without adding items. I don't think they have con boosting items in SF. plus he gave the fighter a lower con then the soldier so you'd have to add another 40 hp to that total to put them on evener ground.

As far as I understood, they assumed the Soldier started with 10 CON and simply picked CON as one of the four stats to boost every five levels (which is overwhelmingly likely for the majority of Soldiers).

Also, I edited my post to account for items slightly before you replied.


AH missed that.

Liberty's Edge

Noodlemancer wrote:
364 vs 184 is almost exactly double, and you assumed HP FCB, which feels unlikely to me. Just saying.

Every class guide I've ever seen has Favored Class to HP. I've certainly seen it go the other way...but on a melee Fighter going with the skill (or racial FCB) is usually combined with Toughness or some other HP booster.

And I left Toughness out entirely on the Fighter build. I did leave it out on Soldier as well, but still.

Noodlemancer wrote:
If you compare 224 (without HP FCB, but with a +6 CON item) to 384 (assuming a +2 personal upgrade in CON at level 20, which feels likely), it's also almost double.

Not really. Even that's less than 1.75 times as many. It rounds down to 1.5 more easily than up to 2.

And it ignores the Tome/Wish thing, which is very common at level 20 and makes the ratio a whole lot closer.

Noodlemancer wrote:
As far as I understood, they assumed the Soldier started with 10 CON and simply picked CON as one of the four stats to boost every five levels (which is overwhelmingly likely for the majority of Soldiers).

This, however, is substantially correct. I didn't necessarily assume Con 10 to start with, I just assumed less than Con 14.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Noodlemancer wrote:
364 vs 184 is almost exactly double, and you assumed HP FCB, which feels unlikely to me. Just saying.

Every class guide I've ever seen has Favored Class to HP. I've certainly seen it go the other way...but on a melee Fighter going with the skill (or racial FCB) is usually combined with Toughness or some other HP booster.

And I left Toughness out entirely on the Fighter build. I did leave it out on Soldier as well, but still.

Noodlemancer wrote:
If you compare 224 (without HP FCB, but with a +6 CON item) to 384 (assuming a +2 personal upgrade in CON at level 20, which feels likely), it's also almost double.

Not really. Even that's less than 1.75 times as many. It rounds down to 1.5 more easily than up to 2.

And it ignores the Tome/Wish thing, which is very common at level 20 and makes the ratio a whole lot closer.

Noodlemancer wrote:
As far as I understood, they assumed the Soldier started with 10 CON and simply picked CON as one of the four stats to boost every five levels (which is overwhelmingly likely for the majority of Soldiers).
This, however, is substantially correct. I didn't necessarily assume Con 10 to start with, I just assumed less than Con 14.

"70% more" is decently close to double, I'd say. As for FCB's - I've never used the HP FCB in my entire gaming career, so that sounds odd to me. As for Tomes/Wishes - in my experience of high-level play, typically only those to primary stats (whatever you use to hit/damage/DC's) see play, with CON being virtually never taken. So it's definitely not a safe assumption.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Human Fighter 20
14 or 15 Starting Con + 6 Enhancement Bonus = 20 Con or +5 per level
Toughness and Favored Class adds an additional +2 per level

17+([5.5+7]*19) = 254.5hp (This doesn't count a potential 40-60hp from Wish which brings it to 294.5-310.5hp)

If the fighter pays the money to retrain up his hp (not necessarily recommended) then his hp is 17*20 = 340hp (380 or 400 with Wishes)
-------
Human Soldier 20
10 Starting Con + 8 Level Up Bonus + 2 Personal Upgrade Bonus = 20 Con or +5 per level
Toughness adds an addition +1 per level

(7+5+1)*20 = 260sp
([2 or 4 or 6]+7)+(7*19) = 142 or 144 or 146hp

402-406 effective HP

50thp Force Shield Armor mod (doesn't protect against lasers and other light based attacks but still likely a good idea)

452-456 effective HP (with 10 fast healing on the 50thp force force shield)

With the force shield, the Solder effectively has twice HP as a Fighter. I think an Engineer with Improved Shield Boost might be able to have more effective HP (2x mechanic level matches the Extra SP/level and Extra HP/level that Soldier has and they get add their Int Mod to the THP)
--------

I, personally, think it's reasonable to say they have effectively doubled HP pools. I don't yet know if this is a problem considering I haven't had the chance to play.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I actually like Stamina, Hit Point, and Resolve system. I like that stamina is quicker to recover than hit points. Hit Points recover at the same rate they do in Pathfinder: however, the increased damage from weapon scaling will play a big role. A few shots from high item level weapons will eat through stamina and resolve quickly. I think that is one reason for the separation. If it were straight hit points at 1 per level for 8 hour rest you would be dependent on alternate forms of healing hit points. You are able to recover stamina with resolve. It also keeps the massive damage rule in play. If you were in a previous battle, and your hit points were reduced to 20 from 140. You rest 8 hours and get 20 back (20th level). You would be at 40. With a high item level weapon and critical hit massive damage could come into play once stamina is gone. I also like the resolve mechanism better than negative hit points. You can use it to stabilize. You can loose it when reduced to 0 hit points, and it fuels abilities. Very interesting mechanic.

As far as low item level weapons causing critical that dismember high level characters that is unlikely related to the weapon item level being part of the save.

Dave2


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The 100 shield is not effective against chunk of energy weapons so how effective is it.

Also a fighter is very likely to have higher than 20 con.

Another factor is high item level weapons in Starfinder do much more damage than weapons in Pathfinder.

Dave2

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dave2 wrote:
The 100 shield is not effective against chunk of energy weapons so how effective is it.

Only not effective against LASERS and maybe PLASMA. Still protects against Cryo, Flame, Shock, Sonic, and Acid. Plus I made a mistake, It's only 50 THP.

Dave2 wrote:
Also a fighter is very likely to have higher than 20 con.

Only if they get Wishes/Manuals. I don't assume that at all and even if you did get those, I would assume those would go to Str or Dex before Con with most characters.

Dave2 wrote:
Another factor is high item level weapons in Starfinder do much more damage than weapons in Pathfinder.

You're not wrong about this and that's why I'm personally not sure whether it's an issue or not. Anyway, This assumed starting with a 10 con and only putting a +2 personal enhancement towards it. A Vesk Melee Soldier might start with a 14 Con and put a +4 personal enhancement towards it for an ending score of Constitution of 24 which gives another 40sp.

EDIT: Apparently Cryo Weapons might bypass force shields since it's a supercooled gas. A comment to this effect in the description of Cryo and Plasma weapons or in Force Shields would of been appreciated.


The one "benefit" of the split vs resting healing you is that it makes an injury into hit points feel more real. Otherwise you could go from near dead to fill health by waiting an hour. Rather than introduce more complex rules into how that actually works, having it be seperate makes a lot of sense

Liberty's Edge

I said double was an exaggeration, not that Starfinder characters don't have more effective HP. They clearly do.

Double just struck me as a bit hyberbolic. I admit I wasn't thinking of force fields in that context for several reasons. If you count them it might well be double, or very close to double anyway.


Quote:
Double just struck me as a bit hyberbolic.

Considering which one of us took an extreme min/maxed case as the go-to comparison... I don't think so. Is it exactly 2 to 1? No. But in general it's pretty close for day-to-day characters. So 'effectively doubling' is a reasonable statement and not hyperbolic.

Most SF classes are getting 12 hp(HP+SP) per level, plus con (and the rapidly irrelevant race bonus). PF classes vary more, but average about 5 per level (d8) plus con.

SF Con might as well get bonuses without specific plans to the contrary, so this will probably start lower but escalate reasonably in line with PF increases (again, unless forcing it)

Quote:
Besides which, 'rocket tag' was by far the most common issue I heard about (and experienced) in both high level play and for 1st level characters. Removing that tendency seems a worthy goal.

Uh... few to zero rocket tag issues are solved by adding more HP. That's more an area of save or lose spells and effects, which are fewer but still present.

Liberty's Edge

Voss wrote:
Considering which one of us took an extreme min/maxed case as the go-to comparison... I don't think so. Is it exactly 2 to 1? No. But in general it's pretty close for day-to-day characters. So 'effectively doubling' is a reasonable statement and not hyperbolic.

A Con 14 Fighter with a Belt of Physical Perfection at 20th level is extreme now?

Voss wrote:
Most SF classes are getting 12 hp(HP+SP) per level, plus con (and the rapidly irrelevant race bonus). PF classes vary more, but average about 5 per level (d8) plus con.

True enough, but 12+Con doesn't actually wind up as double 5+Con when Con is 16+, which it usually is for both Pathfinder and Starfinder characters by the endgame. The higher it gets above 16, in fact, the lower the difference is comparatively.

Voss wrote:
SF Con might as well get bonuses without specific plans to the contrary, so this will probably start lower but escalate reasonably in line with PF increases (again, unless forcing it).

Yeah, just about (I think it caps a little lower, too, but not enough to matter that much). Which is sorta my point.

Voss wrote:
Uh... few to zero rocket tag issues are solved by adding more HP. That's more an area of save or lose spells and effects, which are fewer but still present.

Really? I've had quite a number of main villains or other scary creatures lose initiative and then die to the PCs attacks before their turn came around. And quite a few PCs go down to NPC damage in the same situation.

Full attacks get nasty at high levels in Pathfinder. Or heck, at mid levels. A 9th level Inquisitor using bane and Manyshot has killed many a powerful foe before they got to act.

Now, SOD spells are also a factor, certainly, but I think the Saves vs. Save DC calculations have been adjusted a bit to help with that, as well as the number of SOD spells having dropped.


I am glad someone posted this as it saved me from creating my own.

Please Note: I am fully aware there are many different play styles and groups and people play PnP RPG's for a variety of reasons.

To me the fact that I can spend 10 min and contemplate how good BBQ pork buns are (and spend 1 resolve) and suddenly my wounds that were caused from all types of deadly weapons close up and I feel great is silly.
Or let me rephrase, not silly but video gamey. Most people I play with play video games for one type of experience and play RPG's games for another. Yes some areas overlap but so far all of the people that I tend to play with do not like it.
For the record in the most part all of the people I have talked to so far also hated D&D 4th.

Also the rule looks to be easy to rip out and still play the game. The reason why I would do so is that since I started playing 79, I have played games with this type of rule and after a few sessions (ie a few months the game quickly dissolved into silliness).
Of course I fully agree that there are groups out there that like this style of play.

Right now I have committed to play in some face to face SFS scenarios (but I have told them that I may have to bail out if other game/RPG obligations arise) so I am not letting the fact I do not like it prevent me for play with the things I do like or at least think I like.
MDC


I wanted to make this a separate point.
In all modern and future games I have played healing by normal means and special healing by either tech, magic, psionic or other means is a larger part of every game I have played in.
So the doctor PC or NPC is generally just as important or more important as the muscle, the mechanic and the driver. The healing of large swaths of hits by a simple mechanic to me greatly reduces this classic party role and could push the game to more of a war game than a RPG. For example Classic Battle Tech where your mechs heal fully (video game combat focused) between conflicts vs dealing with repairing and supply issues (more RPG like and problem solving).

MDC


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would say that stamina represents fatigue and minor scrapes. It is healed with resolve to reduce decency on doctors and healing alternates.

Hit points is made to represent wounds.

My guess is that characters are able to heal (with resolve) the stamina loss is that the item level scaling of damage has the potential to eat through stamina quickly at high level as well as good chunk of hit points. If stamina was not recovered quickly, then allot of characters would be out of combat until their hit points healed. This happens much slower rate creating potential down time.

Also remember hit points does not heal with resolve so even though the stamina is back up to max you could still be down a large chunk hit points that only heal one per level with 8 hour rest.

Dave2


I think of Stamina as being just the same as Hit Points.

The way that they differ is that Stamina are just fast recovering Hit Points.

Neither though represents significant wounds outside of respect for dramatic presentation.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

In my above post decency should be dependency.

I could see looking at stamina as a type of hit point. I think the ability to regain it with
resolve is a needed mechanic related to damage scaling up with item level. Hit points healing 1 per level per 8 hour rest could maybe keep up with weapons that do 2d6 but not 14d10. There are high level characters in Pathfinder that can deal large sums of damage. To me the high level character was rare thing. High item level weapons that are manufactured are not. Even the mid level item level weapons can do chunk of damage. I think tactical combat to include cover will be used more in Starfinder than the stand there and take damage approach you may have had in Pathfinder with the 2d6 damage weapons.

Dave2


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wounds may have been bad choice of words. In other systems wounds mean different things and could have effects tied to them. Maybe something like longer lasting damage.
So stamina superficial damage and hit points longer lasting damage.

I think critical sand the wounding critical effect may be what most may think of as wounds. As I have indicated, I think the item level of the weapon being included in save does reduce the chance of high level characters being suffering the critical effects.

Dave2

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