Starfinder versus pathfinder Vote: Hitpoints vrs stamina et. all.


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I like the HP/Stamina/Resolve system because in-combat healing has always sucked in 3e. Consuming CLW wands outside of combat doesn't add any strategic element to the game for me personally.

However effectively spending Stamina (in the form of Resolve) does, since it is a resource not exclusively used for healing. The strategic use of Resolve for either class abilities or healing is basically the same game mechanic in play for clerics spontaneously converting prepared spells into cures, but spread to every class.


Dave2;
Thanks for your views and thoughts.
It is just strange to me that a person can take dagger stab's to the body and then convince themselves that it is not that bad.

As to your point on scaling damage do to more potent weapons, in most other systems their are other tech ways to deal with higher potency weapons or just like in life the PC/person/NPC dies.

I do think the stam/hit idea is great for video games but I look for something different when playing in person. Note I agree that there are many play styles and groups (and I have been in most of the camps at one time in my life or another, mostly when younger) and this may appeal to some or many time will tell.
I also look for more in my RPGs then in video games in terms of things making sense and IMHO there were/are things they could have done to make this same idea work. Yes they might/could/are heavy handed but still IMHO make it a lot more plausible than the idea presented in the book.
I also will tend to expect less from something I may spend 20-30 hours playing vs something that may take 20-30 hours a month for a year.
MDC

Liberty's Edge

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Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

Dave2;

Thanks for your views and thoughts.
It is just strange to me that a person can take dagger stab's to the body and then convince themselves that it is not that bad.

The point of Stamina thematically is that when you only take Stamina damage, you likely didn't get hit at all, or only scratched anyway. You just used up some notable luck or energy in avoiding that fate.

Things like a lost limb critical effect are something of an exception to this rule, which is why they are weird.


HunterWulf wrote:

I think of Stamina as being just the same as Hit Points.

The way that they differ is that Stamina are just fast recovering Hit Points.

Neither though represents significant wounds outside of respect for dramatic presentation.

Pretty much. Many of the starfinder changes (stamina, environmental armor that never gets compromised, ilevels for weapons and armor) are pure game mechanics that can't be rationalized.

Stamina is there for non-magical healing, but has acap on it. Conceptually it isn't much different from 4e's bloodied state and healing surges or 5e's hit dice, though there are some mechanical differences. The big difference is terminology (labelling one pile of HP as stamina), which can potentially confuse people into thinking it is more than that.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Mark Carlson 255.

Thanks also.

You are right that the Stamina can be removed from the game. You could just combine the stamina and hit points and make them hit points. Intern you could use other forms of healing to offset the resolve to recover stamina thing.

Dave2


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

Dave2;

Thanks for your views and thoughts.
It is just strange to me that a person can take dagger stab's to the body and then convince themselves that it is not that bad.

The point of Stamina thematically is that when you only take Stamina damage, you likely didn't get hit at all, or only scratched anyway. You just used up some notable luck or energy in avoiding that fate.

Things like a lost limb critical effect are something of an exception to this rule, which is why they are weird.

I agree but think of what you just said.

To me you are saying that in effect either you imagined you were more hurt than you were, the weapon did not effect you as seriously as you thought (or in some cases at all) or you simply by thinking about how good pork buns are (and spending a resolve point) you negate the weapons effects on you.

I also think that from a gave design point the creators may have said, hay healing is a problem in pathfinder how can we help out injured PC's? And this is the rule they came up with.

I do not know if it was here or the other thread but I said this idea is more of a video game idea or D&D 4th idea to me than a pen and paper idea. I myself tend to look for different things when I play one or the other and so far I have read about 250 pages strait (with jumping around for topics I am interested in at that time) I am reminded of my Morrowwing game of the Year Edition players guide more than a pen and paper rpg, even though they do have areas in common.
Note: There is noting wrong with that unless you prefer one type of game over the other. I also agree that most if not all games take shortcuts, wave their hands and say "Do not look here" in some areas.

On the PC/NPC front I think that it reduces the role of the doctor/medic/healer/etc.
I also think it removes another hurdle from the players to over come, that of being not at full strength and trying to take on enemies. I do not know if others do it by in pathfinder I look at how damaged PC's are and how much of their daily resources they have used and adjust the parties encounter level accordingly for exp. ie an encounter when the PC's are at full strength may be ECL-4 vs them but if they are all very injured and have no resources it would be an equal ECL. So I use a sliding scale and in general players like it but it does put more work on me and is more of an art than a science.

I am getting ready for our first game (the GM hopes for it to be a SFS game but I do not know if the paperwork can be done in time) and I am keeping an open mind, but from my past experience I generally do not continue to enjoy games that are more video then PnP. Again nothing wrong if you like it the other way.

Thanks all

BTW, why do you consider it more fun Stam/HP vs HP?

MDC


The idea of it being a videogame-y mechanic is rather odd to me... Can't see I've seen a starfinder style HP/Stamina dynamic in a videogame before.


I'll need to play with it more to be sure. But so far, I'm liking Stamina better.

1. By having a first pool of damage that can only be healed out of combat, magic healing is only needed for the really bad damage. So, classes who can heal often have obviously better things to do than heal, so shouldn't feel as trapped having to be "the healer". In fact it is much easier to get by without a healer.

2. You live with a greater sense of danger once your stamina gets knocked off. Because you know that magic won't bring you back to full for this fight.

3. Resolve is a limited resource that you want to hoard a little but not in total. Because, you want to be near total stamina for every fight but if you run out of resolve you could easily die.

4. The 15 minute adventuring day problem is reduced because most of your party will be ready to push on multiple times before resting.


Would people feel better if "Stamina" was called "luck points"? I think about stamina as an indicator for your awareness and general survivability in combat - scrapes, bruises maybe, and that's it. Get out of combat, catch your breath, recover your focus and awareness. Something that actually hits you and damages you is biting into your hit points.

A high level rifle can do 6d12 + 20 for two hits in one round. Sometimes 3 hits. A solarian could do 12d6 +6d6 +20, again two or three times. That's 160-240 damage a round... maximum 384. Your 340 stamina and 146hp do not last long there. And if you do get into your hp... Take the above. Say she gets knocked down to 15 HP, recovers 20. Now your character still has 340 stamina, but only 35 HP once that's burned through... That's scary, and the hurt stays with you.


Yeah I feel if your considering stamina damage as knife wounds and broken bones you are not describing it as intended. I think it is meant to be avoiding blows and knicks scraps and bruises.


Milo v3 wrote:
The idea of it being a videogame-y mechanic is rather odd to me... Can't see I've seen a starfinder style HP/Stamina dynamic in a videogame before.

I have seen a few games that have some hits fast heal when not in combat and others that only recover after a specific amount of time, rest or resource.

I also have seen 2 in the past year propose something like this. This is in the work up the rules phase of game design and discussions on how to manage game play (and data cost for mobile players) vs drama and preserving some real life game boundaries.

MDC


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Yeah I feel if your considering stamina damage as knife wounds and broken bones you are not describing it as intended. I think it is meant to be avoiding blows and knicks scraps and bruises.

If you are describing them as luck should the other player even roll damage? Would it not just be more efficient to just have a metric on how many attacks you avoid and vary it by weapon intensity?

I will go back and reread the info but if the intent is luck then I am going to definitely going to throw away the rule.
I am on page 250 after reading 100 pages a day the first two days (and some jumping around to read topic that have jumped out) and I have a couple more days to decided if I am going to keep the book or return it as I know the store owner.

I can say I was really looking forward to more pathfinder in space and not what is presented. But I should know more after the first game this weekend sometime.
MDC


I don't know how you got that as a description of luck.

I don't think its luck. I think it is representing reflexs to avoid and lessen blows as well as taking blows well. Think of it as two boxers fighting. At first they take the hits in stride (with exception of knock outs etc.) But as they begin to fatigue they don't have the energy to to take those blows as well they start slowing they get hit they get hurt more.
Personally I used to both box and fence. Your are far more likely to get hurt when you are fatigued you react slower and its harder to move with a hit.

If you came here to try and get someone to convince you to keep it. I suggest you go ahead and return it. No one will be able to change your mind especially if the only determining factor is If stamina is luck based?


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would look at the damage system as cinematic. Stamina represents a pool that can be used to turn longer lasting injuries (hit point loss) to minor injuries with resolve (stamina loss). I would look at it as cuts, bruises, and scrapes. They could be caused by blast or knife but were scrapes and bruises. Hit Points represents longer lasting injuries that take longer to heal. So it is not to me luck more of turning longer lasting injuries such as hit point loss to minor ones stamina loss that is healed with resolve.

Dave2


Vidmaster7,

I think I got the luck from your description.

As for lessening of blows would not using DR just be better and not require extra rules?

As for taking the book back, I tend to listen to my gut and not others since I have been gaming for a long time.

I am also the creator of Rule Zero so I have no problem slicing parts out of games that do not make sense to/for me or for the group I am running for. (Being the creator of the rule does not make my opinion any more or less valid than any other person as some in the past have jumped to after I post something like this. It just means that if you have mutant ants in your game as the super race and you write a bunch of fluff that does not mach the rules presented I will cut that out and use the rules I like or add the rules to my home system)

Dave2

I see where you are coming from and thanks for you thoughts and I appreciate it.

General:
I think I just expect the game to be more PF like and not jump off in the direction it did.
It is my hope that everyone play the game and make decisions for themselves as to which rules they like or dont like. The sidebar here is that often after reading rules (or hearing about it from a valid source) most can make good choices from others experiences.

MDC


Stamina is better than DR, because it adds to the feeling of danger and drama. When you just lose hit points, you can use some magic/tech and be as good as new; but when you lose Stamina it's gone for that fight. It makes the stakes feel a lot higher, even when you have a healer. Meanwhile, DR is just some extra math you have to do every time you take damage.

The limited recovery of stamina also adds extra drama when you are racing against the clock and don't have 10 minutes to get it back.


Pathfinder system.

People say it's a pain tracking the HP, but they're doing it backwards. You track the DAMAGE, not the health.

The Stamina / HP system is similar to the Vitality Point / Wound Point system of Star Wars D20. It makes sense in a universe based on movies where most weapons can easily kill in one hit.

It makes less sense in Pathfinder-style games.

Something I never understood is why someone had to make this abstraction to begin with. Why CAN'T the dragon-punching demigod shrug off a stab from a peasant's dagger? What's wrong with the shape shifting druid in bear form having arrow shafts sticking from him like porcupine quills while he continues to maul the brigands?

What makes me angry are the silly rationalizations of Hit Point representing luck or skill, but then the healing mechanics failing to use the same mechanical logic. Yes, the Cleric has a harder time healing the more experienced and powerful guy. Why? If HP were representing skill and luck, then healing would scale to the target's level and not the caster. Instead, it just becomes proportionately weaker over time.

The 'bonus' HP also make PC's twice to three times as tough as before. BasicLly the same as getting two Hit Dice per level as far as HP is concerned. This is... excessive in a universe where healing is baked in to the system and so easy to achieve.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think Mark Carson 255 should be able run game he wants. If the damage system is not to his liking change it. It is easy enough to say Stamina is now hit points. Done very simple and easy to do. The damage system is one of the easiest things to tweak. I toyed with adding an effect such as bleeding, stunned ect after taking your first hit point damage. Not sure going to do it.

For me personally the more I think about Stamina, Hit Points, and resolve the more I like it. The different healing rates between Stamina and hit points is interesting and can make for interesting tactical decisions. Using resolve for abilities, to stabilize, and loosing it when at 0 hit points every round also interesting. Oh ya also need resolve to regain the lost stamina.

Dave2

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