
Sir_Andrew |

so in our current Campaign, our GM is having us start up a guild, to start this guild we need the support of the church, labor, mage
and Merchant guilds. (representing the downtime rules of influence, labor, magic and gold.) we are finally starting the church mission, but my character has come upon a problem. so the church in the city is worships a pantheon of deities, so good, neutral and some (few) evil deities are all represented by clerics there, though the high priest that represents the church and the church guild is a cleric of asmodeus , problem is my character is a very devoted follower of Cayden Cailean. how would i roleplay this encounter? were obviously going to be working with the priest for the good amount of time, can a devoted follower of Cayden work with and accept aid from a follower of asmodeus? i know the simple answer is have one of the players interact with the priest, but my character is our current face and i should be there to help.

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problem is my character is a very devoted follower of Cayden Cailean.
Are you a divine caster?
(I dimly recall there being a spell you could cast that worked sort of like Augury and told you whether or not a course of action would lead to you violating your code and/or pissing off your deity. Can't remember the name of it.)
On a more pragmatic note, I would just expect the worst: i.e., it's a trap/plot/scheme as all compromises with evil invariably are.

Necroluth |

Let one of the other characters that is less antagonistic to Asmodeus talk to him, but in the meantime, work on a way to get him cast out or replaced. Maybe the guild of merchants doesn't like how they get screwed in EVERY contract they sign with him, and maybe the laborers don't like how he treats them like disposable slaves. The church of Abadar may be more amenable to both of those guilds, and a grassroots campaign to oust the Asmodean priest might get some serious traction. You can play up your own populist message in the traditional Cailean way, by inviting them all to some truly epic keggers.
Obviously, this should be done as behind the scenes as possible, so that the Asmodeans don't mobilize their own (corrupt) minions against you. You would also need to be wary of those members of the other three guilds that may be dominated or charmed by the devil-worshippers.

PodTrooper |

AM I reading that right?
The church in the city accommodates worship of good, neutral AND evil deities? Side by side? Same building/organization?
And a cleric of asmodeus in a leadership position? Over good-aligned clergy?
If that is accurate, I have a VERY long list of problems to address, well before I ever get to your character's particular issue.

Sir_Andrew |

Quote:problem is my character is a very devoted follower of Cayden Cailean.Are you a divine caster?
(I dimly recall there being a spell you could cast that worked sort of like Augury and told you whether or not a course of action would lead to you violating your code and/or pissing off your deity. Can't remember the name of it.)
On a more pragmatic note, I would just expect the worst: i.e., it's a trap/plot/scheme as all compromises with evil invariably are.
he is not a cleric, he's a swashbuckler/soon to be part investigator. not sure if the high priest is actually evil, he could possibly be LN.

Sir_Andrew |

AM I reading that right?
The church in the city accommodates worship of good, neutral AND evil deities? Side by side? Same building/organization?
And a cleric of asmodeus in a leadership position? Over good-aligned clergy?If that is accurate, I have a VERY long list of problems to address, well before I ever get to your character's particular issue.
i'm not sure if there is problem or not. the GM hasn't hinted at any friction between the clerics, so...not sure at all.

PodTrooper |

Honestly, my group does not run games in Golarion, so I don't know a great deal about the pantheon outside the (minimal) information in the main PF books.
But I would have to believe, based on every other pantheon that has ever been used in D&D, and other RPG settings over the years, that all the gods don't get along very well. It's a staple (even in human mythology), that there are some pretty major (eons long) grudge matches among the divine.
I would expect there are some serious enemies between various, diametrically opposed, faiths and their clergy. Who do the paladins of good deities fight against, if not the machinations and corruption of the evil gods.
I guess I just can't accept the premise of the religious system you described. Your initial question, and character's issues with it, are exactly on point. It doesn't make sense to me , and I don't see how there isn't constant warfare in the church/guild/city streets.
I would encourage you to play your (devout) character's faith to a 'T'.
My first assumption, would be that there are NO good clergy involved in the entire system. Obviously, it's fully a church of asmodeus, and they have pulled the wool over everyone's' eyes into thinking there is any representation of good deities. They are all imposters.
I can't imagine devout clergy/warriors of Iomedae or Sarenrae, would put up with that situation for one hot second.
I find myself in bewilderment over what the GM was going for.

Daw |
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What has the Asmodean Priest actually done.
All we really know is that he has risen to power, which is standard for his ilk.
Does he lead fairly?
Are people better off for what he is doing?
There is value for those tiresome people with flairs for organization.
Most importantly for your character, is he taking away people's freedoms?
If he does bad, take him down.
Even I f he doesn't, watch him like your freedom depends on it.
It might.

Sir_Andrew |

yeah it really doesn't make any sense. though i have to say our GM is pretty sneaky when it comes to plots (sneaky in a good way) so either way i'll probably be surprise. i have to agree with Daw. until he does something "evil" i'm probably going to watch him like a hawk.though for all i know he's LN and worships asmodeus "order" trait. we actually haven't met the priest let, mostly just things we've heard. the quest is that multiple priest have gone missing. once we get there i'm sure we will check every possible lead and theory. though i feel that a cleric of asmodeus being the bad guy is too predictable.
also special campaign notes if it helps:
1) this is a home brew/casual campaign
2) the main reacquiring villain for the past year (real life) is a female kyton that is trying to taint the martial plane with shadow plane magic.

Quandary |
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Why doesn't it make sense? Even if there is conflict/competition that doesn't necessitate VIOLENCE.
Golarion mythic history is filled with cross-aligned deities cooperating to fight foes. Think Rovagug.
Look at Al-Qadim for example of setting where different alignments cooperate.
Golarion cities like Absalom are attested to have range of alignments of population and their deities.
CG gods are not presented as continually in open war against any and all follower of LG gods.
Hell, plenty of Paizo's own APs have good and evil interests coinciding to allow cooperation.
Paizo's own "alignment fundamentalist" exemplar class, the Paladin, explicitly allows cooperation with evil.

mardaddy |

PodTrooper, you might want to check on the Golorian approach to the gods and how they interact. Golorian lore is that Asmodeus was requested by the gods to maintain the key that imprisons Rovagug.
And upon how Cheliax, a LE kingdom where the ruling family's ancestors literally sold their soul to the devil (three times over) and still allows churches and worship of other deities within the borders of the land.
It is all about manipulating the, "weaklings," keeping prey within your grasp, and enticing, prodding or forcing them to betray their faith.

blahpers |

AM I reading that right?
The church in the city accommodates worship of good, neutral AND evil deities? Side by side? Same building/organization?
And a cleric of asmodeus in a leadership position? Over good-aligned clergy?If that is accurate, I have a VERY long list of problems to address, well before I ever get to your character's particular issue.
Is it really that hard to imagine? It happens in fiction all the time. It happens in real life, for that matter. I can think of quite a few reasons an Asmodean would make an excellent leader.

Sir_Andrew |

so asked my GM more about it over a message, he says that the clerics only cooperate under peer-pressure, the asmodeus cleric rose to power after a goblin tribe attacked a city, killing a lot of people, but a group of asmodeus clerics saved the day and then open a orphanage for the orphans. so a lot of people in the city view them favorably. but the good and neutral clerics would love nothing more then a change of leadership, but haven't done anything let in fear of war and riots.
edit: so maybe a future plot hook?

JDPhipps |
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It's worth noting that many sources say that while good deities rarely like to cooperate with the evil ones at all, one of the few they WILL deal with is Asmodeus. They're always suspicious of his motives and likely look over the conditions for his help with a fine-toothed comb, but the simple reason is because Asmodeus can be trusted. Asmodeus is dependable, he will adhere to his word, he'll follow the plan. Asmodeus worked with the other gods to seal Rovagug away, after all. He does what he says he'll do, you just have to make sure what he says is what you want. Canonically, he's only ever (maybe) lied once in the history of the universe.
You should always go with the devil you know, after all.

Darksol the Painbringer |

Paizo's own "alignment fundamentalist" exemplar class, the Paladin, explicitly allows cooperation with evil.
Sure, they can cooperate with Evil.
When the end of the world is near. Because of some other Evil that makes the first Evil look like a sack of potatoes. And even that has restrictions. Since if the sack of potatoes goes bad, the Paladin has to dump them and tell the world to go screw itself. Because he'd lose his Paladin powers if he kept them around. And if the Paladin loses his powers, the world is doomed. (But if he doesn't have the lesser Evil help him out, the world is still doomed anyway.) Sounds like a "Gotcha!" scenario if I've ever heard of one, and by reading all the paladin threads, there have been plenty (even if they are identical).
So, in that light, Paladins cooperating with Evil can at-best be viewed as niche, in the same vein as feats like Prone Shooter and Monkey Lunge being niche, to the point that nobody would take those feats under every circumstance imaginable.

Darksol the Painbringer |

It's worth noting that many sources say that while good deities rarely like to cooperate with the evil ones at all, one of the few they WILL deal with is Asmodeus. They're always suspicious of his motives and likely look over the conditions for his help with a fine-toothed comb, but the simple reason is because Asmodeus can be trusted. Asmodeus is dependable, he will adhere to his word, he'll follow the plan. Asmodeus worked with the other gods to seal Rovagug away, after all. He does what he says he'll do, you just have to make sure what he says is what you want. Canonically, he's only ever (maybe) lied once in the history of the universe.
You should always go with the devil you know, after all.
You seem to forget that just because he has a plan doesn't mean that the contractees are on board with said plan. Twisting and turning words into something that the contractee thought meant one thing, when the contractor meant something completely different, is precisely why those deities aren't all giddy-giddy with Asmodeus.
Sure, he may have played a part in sealing Rovagug away, but I imagine that came with strings attached that the other deities relented in accepting, but only did so because the end of everything in existence was at stake. In other words, Asmodeus had them by the jewels, and you can bet dollars to doughnuts that he extorted that as much as he could from that little ordeal. (I also could argue that he could've sealed him away by himself, but he would've just let the other deities die first and become a divine dictator if he could do that, meaning that was highly unlikely.)

blahpers |

Of course he extorted them. It's his nature. Nevertheless, it presents a plausible scenario in which good divinities (and their servants) cooperate with evil ones (and theirs), and this continues to Golarion's present day.
As to the thread title, of course they can. Otherwise we'd all be murdering each other at a far higher rate here in Realsville. You probably have someone at work with a diametrically-opposed alignment (by D&D standards), but (hopefully) you haven't taken a swing at them yet.

JDPhipps |

Jon, The Evil DM wrote:It's worth noting that many sources say that while good deities rarely like to cooperate with the evil ones at all, one of the few they WILL deal with is Asmodeus. They're always suspicious of his motives and likely look over the conditions for his help with a fine-toothed comb, but the simple reason is because Asmodeus can be trusted. Asmodeus is dependable, he will adhere to his word, he'll follow the plan. Asmodeus worked with the other gods to seal Rovagug away, after all. He does what he says he'll do, you just have to make sure what he says is what you want. Canonically, he's only ever (maybe) lied once in the history of the universe.
You should always go with the devil you know, after all.
You seem to forget that just because he has a plan doesn't mean that the contractees are on board with said plan. Twisting and turning words into something that the contractee thought meant one thing, when the contractor meant something completely different, is precisely why those deities aren't all giddy-giddy with Asmodeus.
Sure, he may have played a part in sealing Rovagug away, but I imagine that came with strings attached that the other deities relented in accepting, but only did so because the end of everything in existence was at stake. In other words, Asmodeus had them by the jewels, and you can bet dollars to doughnuts that he extorted that as much as he could from that little ordeal. (I also could argue that he could've sealed him away by himself, but he would've just let the other deities die first and become a divine dictator if he could do that, meaning that was highly unlikely.)
True, but my point was more that they'll cooperate with him at all. You have to be careful, but it isn't as if Asmodeus will straight up break a deal he makes with you. I don't think the other clerics trust him necessarily, but they're willing to work with him more so than a cleric of Lamashtu. The Asmodean is predictable, he'll do what he says (just perhaps not in the way you thought he meant). If you can be relatively sure that you and the Asmodean are on the same side on something, you can trust him to actually stick to his word.

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Asmodeus is often presented as mostly Lawful, and incidentally Evil because he doesn't care about whether the Law ends up harming people as long as Order is preserved. As such he has a track record of working with Good-aligned deities on areas of common interest - notably in sealing up Rovagug, the big CE terror in the setting. There's also an organization in the setting called the "Order of the Godclaw" that worships Asmodeus along with two LN and two LG deities and is among other things involved in fighting off demonic invasion.
so asked my GM more about it over a message, he says that the clerics only cooperate under peer-pressure, the asmodeus cleric rose to power after a goblin tribe attacked a city, killing a lot of people, but a group of asmodeus clerics saved the day and then open a orphanage for the orphans. so a lot of people in the city view them favorably. but the good and neutral clerics would love nothing more then a change of leadership, but haven't done anything let in fear of war and riots.
edit: so maybe a future plot hook?
Yeah, that sounds promising. It sounds like the GM is giving you an opportunity to unseat the Asmodean in the long run, even if you need to tolerate him in the short term and even if he doesn't end up on the other end of your rapier - like the GM wants to push your character out of his comfort zone without expecting him to give up his principles. I would definitely go with the "watch him like a hawk" plan for now.

Adjoint |

except Lamashtu, Rovagug and Norgorber(iirc)
That's Lamashtu, Rovagug and Gorum. They don't have a head priest who would be above others, every of 17 gods is treated equally in the pantheon.
Also no sacrifices of any creatures (intelligent or not) is allowed within the building, and the rites performed cannot violate any of many Korvosan laws. This causes some cults to have another, secret meeting spot, where they perform the rites forbidden in the Pantheon of Many.

RDM42 |
Let one of the other characters that is less antagonistic to Asmodeus talk to him, but in the meantime, work on a way to get him cast out or replaced. Maybe the guild of merchants doesn't like how they get screwed in EVERY contract they sign with him, and maybe the laborers don't like how he treats them like disposable slaves. The church of Abadar may be more amenable to both of those guilds, and a grassroots campaign to oust the Asmodean priest might get some serious traction. You can play up your own populist message in the traditional Cailean way, by inviting them all to some truly epic keggers.
Obviously, this should be done as behind the scenes as possible, so that the Asmodeans don't mobilize their own (corrupt) minions against you. You would also need to be wary of those members of the other three guilds that may be dominated or charmed by the devil-worshippers.
I would think a smart Abdar priest doesn't screw people in EVERY contract, but just in really important ones.

Dave Justus |

Why does your character want the guild project in the first place? That seems like the first issue that needs to be addressed. A Chaotic character isn't going to be terribly thrilled by the whole permissions requirement and it's implicit bureaucracy in the first place, whether that 'Lawful' pressure is coming from good or evil sources.
For the most part, a chaotic individual would tend to favor dismantling monopolistic guilds and establishing a more 'free enterprise' system. Obviously you are willing to work within the system for now at least, but understanding your goal is critical.
With that answer you could then figure out how far he was willing to go as far as working, at least temporarily, with evil as well. As others have noticed, Asmodeans tend to be more focused on law rather than evil as a primary factor, and of course it is entirely possible that while the cleric worships a LE deity, he can certainly be LE as far as his own morality goes, which gives you some wiggle room, or at least some place to start from until you learn otherwise.
Also, I applaud you in that even though you don't have class features that depend on it, you take your characters religious and moral outlook seriously, rather than just ignoring it when it is convenient, as many who don't have alignment/deity class restrictions do.

Mysterious Stranger |

It will really depend on the nature of the cleric. Keep in mind that not all evil characters have the same motivation. Just because you are evil does not necessarily mean you murderous scum bag out to enslave the world. A person motivated by greed who avoids killing because he finds it distasteful can still be evil. A Lawful Evil character will also tend to obey the local laws. So if he is in an area where slavery is illegal he would not be enslaving people even if he sees nothing wrong with himself. He may use the local law to his advantage but for the most part will obey it. He may throw the widow of the farm the minute she misses a payment, but if she makes the payment he will not move against her until she actually fails to pay.
Another thing to consider is that just because the cleric worships Amodeous does not necessarily make him evil Cleric have to be within one step of their deity’s alignment, that means a cleric of Asmodeous could be Lawful Neutral instead of Lawful Evil. Even if the cleric is Lawful Evil he could appear to be Lawful Neutral, and keep his evil nature hidden. This is particularly likely with a cleric of Asmodeous in a setting where most of the people are good or neutral.

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The Godclaw in Golarion, a religious order of Hellknights devoted to Abadar (LN), Asmodeus (LE), Iomedae (LG), Irori (LN) and Torag (LG) suggests that evil and good clerics can cooperate, at times, as well as Iomedae's LG church being the second largest in Cheliax, a nation that is pretty solidly in the bag for Asmodeus.
Granted, that's all ethically lawful churches tolerating each other, despite moral variances. Chaotic good is opposed on both axes to lawful evil, compared to just the one axis for lawful good and lawful evil, which would make things even testier.
A cleric of Cayden Cailean or Desna and one of Asmodeus or Zon-Kuthon would, IMO, be far less likely to 'get along.'
For non-clerics, 'though? No biggie. Evil and good people get along all the time, as well as religious folk and non-religious folk, or dog-lovers and cat-lovers. It's about finding the common ground.
If there's a unifying threat that pings both of their radars, such as a chaotic evil enemy (who bothers the goods by being wicked and naughty and bothers the lawful by being all disruptive and unruly), that could help cement a temporary alliance.

Daw |
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You also have to remember that these are not likely to be adventuring clerics. They have duties and loyalties to their worshippers. Good or Evil, Lawful or Chaotic, they have to tend to their worshippers, which will temper their actions. This is not an issue for a non-institutional cleric, you know, player characters, who can act any way they feel, without regard to consequences. Certainly not all player characters are narcicistic murder-hoboes, but effectively none of them face the day to day responsibilities that must be balanced with pure idealism. The NPCs have to be, you know, grown-ups. You don't have to like all your coworkers, but you do have to work with them.

PodTrooper |

PodTrooper, you might want to check on the Golorian approach to the gods and how they interact. Golorian lore is that Asmodeus was requested by the gods to maintain the key that imprisons Rovagug.
And upon how Cheliax, a LE kingdom where the ruling family's ancestors literally sold their soul to the devil (three times over) and still allows churches and worship of other deities within the borders of the land.
It is all about manipulating the, "weaklings," keeping prey within your grasp, and enticing, prodding or forcing them to betray their faith.
I will look into it. It seems Golorian takes an approach I wouldn't expect. If that's the way the world works, I will plead ignorance.
I'm used to several deities in a given pantheon being at serious odds with others. (for example Shar/Selune in the Forgotten Realms)
Most of the churches in past fantasy RPG's, have beings with directly opposing portfolios, and their churches would basically have fighting against them as a basic tenet of faith.
The OP didn't happen to mention the specific faiths involved. Maybe it was assumption on my part, that there's a LG or CG priest taking orders from a LE cleric. Something that would induce a big "what-what-WHAT?!!!" from me, on general principle.

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Asmodeus is often presented as mostly Lawful, and incidentally Evil because he doesn't care about whether the Law ends up harming people as long as Order is preserved. As such he has a track record of working with Good-aligned deities on areas of common interest - notably in sealing up Rovagug, the big CE terror in the setting. There's also an organization in the setting called the "Order of the Godclaw" that worships Asmodeus along with two LN and two LG deities and is among other things involved in fighting off demonic invasion.
Color me skeptical, I think Asmodeus likes to be "presented as mostly Lawful" in order to disguise the true depths of his evil.
Similarly, the Order of the Godclaw strikes me as a con designed to neutralize potential opposition to Asmodeus and his House Throne and Hellknight flunkies. It's telling that the first act of the Glorious Reclamation is to attack the Order of the Godclaw's main base. The rebels of the Glorious Reclamation clearly aren't buying the Order of the Godclaw's PR job.

Daw |

Remember that he is playing in his GMs homebrew setting, not Golarian. With what we have been told, I would have to assume that Asmodeas is part of the "local" Pantheon, perhaps even the Leader and/or the Heavy of the Pantheon in a slightly darker Odin kind of role. I have no problem imagining the Asmodeans functioning as the Grim Bullwark holding back the Tides of Chaos. His followers are those who have faced the Dark and have no further use for the soft niceties that they will give their lives to protect.
The idea of pantheons containing both good and evil are hardly new. Look up Tekumal some time.

Klorox |

Tékumel's Lords of Change are hardly evil, disgusting as undead loving Sarku worshippers or savage as the Vimuhla worshipping Legion of Devouring Flame; or excessive as the origies of Dlamélish and Hrihayal may be.
the truly evil deities, like the Goddess of the Pale Bone, have been studiously left OUT of the pantheon by Priest Pavar.

Daw |

Ok, but Barker himself described the various dualities as good and evil sides of the same coin. Granted that some of that is explaining it to a bunch of toe sucking D&Ders more conventional gamers. He was really clear that the alliance was all about good allying with moderately evil, so that they could all survive the really really evil. I admit that my direct experience with him was from the EPT days, so I am not all that clear on how everything evolved.
EDIT ADD
In the EPT Rulebook they are listed as the Five Good Gods and their Cohorts and the Five Evil Gods and their Cohorts. By the actual text I would want to say it is a more Pure versus Corrupt dichotomy than Good versus Evil.

Daw |

Yes, EPT was playable, and a whole lot of fun.
I actually taught quite a few people the game.
Considering this is a Pathfinder forum, if any of you are unable to play a game where everything you can do must be explicitly spelled out, then for you it may well be unplayable, but then, D&D also would have been so at that time.
I should also point out that our current use of Law and Chaos as being completely separate from Good and Evil is not how it was in EPT. In D&D it was fuzzier, closer to the Moorcock model, as well as they could manage. EPT was more in agreement with Runequest on down to Warhammer, that Chaos was about Corruption, Destruction and Dissolution, not a source of freedom and creation, and in fact, Chaos could well corrupt both freedom and creation.