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NPCs are built off of different rules than PCs. There's some extensive discussion of it over in this thread. We'll need to wait for Alien Archive to learn what the exact generation rules are.
The omission of key stats and feats is really irritating.
I like knowing how many Hit Dice my monsters have. The CR implies it is 2nd level, as you've pointed out Soldier 2 seems to be about right.
OK, so, it's knife is at +5. +2 is BAB, +2 is Str, the other is?
Both its ranged attacks are at +8. +2 is BAB, +4 is Dex, what is the other +2 from? Some sort of specialization? The grenades and the pistol are in separate groups, as is the knife, but they all seem to be getting some weird bonus.
How did it get Piloting to 10? Even assuming class skill, that's 2 ranks with +3 class bonus, along with the +4 dex for a total of +9. It's not boosted enough to qualify from Skill Focus.
The AC should be higher. The saves are wrong across the board (Con should be higher, Reflex WAY higher, Will lower).
Some can be inferred. +8 Init with a +4 Dex bonus? Sounds like someone has Improved Initiative.
If we had the details, this would be a lot easier.
There are only two alternatives that make sense:
1) We don't have enough details yet to know and they aren't sharing yet.
2) The NPC's are all "MMO Monsters"--IE: They have stats for their level and the physical appearance doesn't matter at all.
The monsters are generated using a base monster 'type' caster, melee etc. From there the creature is further modified using grafts which give each creature unique abilities as well as determining its CR which is then used to give its final stats. The AC and skills are calculated differently to how PCs calculate and if they even have feats they probably won't list them on the statblock and just bake them into the grafts. If you want an example of what the grafts look like then check out the first volume of Dead Suns, but if you want more specifics on how the math works you'll have to wait until Alien Archive. I imagine the stats will have some relevance to how the monster works but I think it'll be different to how PCs would treat the same stats/modifiers.
EDIT: I should also note that NPC health is determined by CR, so unless a graft changes health then a CR 2 monster will always have the same health.
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NPCs and Players have different math, which allows for a different dynamic from Pathfinder. It has the nice side effect of making BarbariansSoldiers don't kill the entire party when mind controlled. It also makes summoning easier to balance.
I point you to Mark Seifter's post (and the thread is worth reading):
The omission of key stats and feats is really irritating.
I like knowing how many Hit Dice my monsters have. The CR implies it is 2nd level, as you've pointed out Soldier 2 seems to be about right.
OK, so, it's knife is at +5. +2 is BAB, +2 is Str, the other is?
Both its ranged attacks are at +8. +2 is BAB, +4 is Dex, what is the other +2 from? Some sort of specialization? The grenades and the pistol are in separate groups, as is the knife, but they all seem to be getting some weird bonus.How did it get Piloting to 10? Even assuming class skill, that's 2 ranks with +3 class bonus, along with the +4 dex for a total of +9. It's not boosted enough to qualify from Skill Focus.
The AC should be higher. The saves are wrong across the board (Con should be higher, Reflex WAY higher, Will lower).
Some can be inferred. +8 Init with a +4 Dex bonus? Sounds like someone has Improved Initiative.
If we had the details, this would be a lot easier.
There are only two alternatives that make sense:
1) We don't have enough details yet to know and they aren't sharing yet.
2) The NPC's are all "MMO Monsters"--IE: They have stats for their level and the physical appearance doesn't matter at all.
Hit Dice don't exist.
Creatures don't get ability score bonuses to AC and Saves.
Feats that give monsters passive bonuses like Initiative bonuses aren't written down because they don't actually matter, just the final score matters.
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Soooo... MMO Monsters. Got it
Having separate math for players and everything else is one of the main things that made me hate 4th. Best thing 3rd did was unify the math for everything.
Hiruma, thanks for that link. It lets you see how their line of thinking slowly changed over time to come up with this system, and it's an interesting read, even if I disagree with the conclusions and results.
If the problem is that Mind Control results in one player destroying the party, the issue should be fixing that flaw, not re-writing the laws of the universe to change the result.
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If the problem is that Mind Control results in one player destroying the party, the issue should be fixing that flaw, not re-writing the laws of the universe to change the result.
That's not the sole reason. The ability to quickly design NPCs and monsters on the fly based on CR, the shorter and easier to read statblocks are other factors that led to this decision.
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Soooo... MMO Monsters. Got it
Having separate math for players and everything else is one of the main things that made me hate 4th. Best thing 3rd did was unify the math for everything.
It's...not quite like that. I mean, they still use the same gear as PCs and have the same abilities, how those abilities interact with skills, to-hit, and AC is just a bit different.
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It's...not quite like that. I mean, they still use the same gear as PCs and have the same stats, how those stats interact with skills, to-hit, and AC is just a bit different.
Do they? Monsters don't even have normal stats anymore, just the bonuses. The attacks, skills, and saves don't add up at all, and the equipment doesn't seem to matter.
Look at the Space Pirate Crew Member listed in the OP. Notice its armor is a 'second skin', which is +1 EAC and +2 KAC. It has a +4 Dex bonus. Second Skin maxes at +5 Dex, soo.... what's going on here? He should easily be 15 EAC and 16 KAC.
What's going on is that the monster is just a 'skeleton' of stats with descriptional fluff. It could be a Vesk or a Human or it could be in power armor or whatnot, but it's just a 'generic' statblock.
Why bother with the 'normal' stats at all if it's just got assigned attack, damage, AC, and HP for its CR?
That's why it's an MMO Monster. It doesn't really matter what it looks like, or what it carries, or what its stats are, because it's got about the same numbers no matter what. Oh, you might some variety in ones with a special ability or attack, but they are functionally the same chassis, and they probably break down into simple categories like Melee, Ranged, Caster, and Support.
They should have saved time and just put that into the main book. Would save a lot of time with the modules (IE: "CR 5 encounter made of 2x CR2 Melee and 1x CR2 Ranged")
That's not the sole reason. The ability to quickly design NPCs and monsters on the fly based on CR, the shorter and easier to read statblocks are other factors that led to this decision.
Quickly designing NPC's is alright, but once you've made some, they exist forever. As new Beastiary-equivalents, NPC guides, modules, etc, come out, more and more become available with zero work. Plus, as a GM, the ones you make exist forever too. I have dozens leftover from 3.0 that I can dust off if I need in my PF games with only minimal adjustment.
Shorter and easier-to-read statblocks don't require that change either. Just put down the most important details. Which at this point is basically Attack+, AC, Saves, and HP.
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Still, none of my complaints matter too much in the end since we can just Rule Zero it and build NPC's the "normal" way. It's just irritating that this is hailed as some 'new' way of doing things when it's been done before in games with simpler rules. One of the great things about Pathfinder is that the rules are detailed and have some complexity.
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Do they? Monsters don't even have normal stats anymore, just the bonuses. The attacks, skills, and saves don't add up at all, and the equipment doesn't seem to matter.
They don't add up the same way PCs do. That doesn't inherently mean they don't add up.
Look at the Space Pirate Crew Member listed in the OP. Notice its armor is a 'second skin', which is +1 EAC and +2 KAC. It has a +4 Dex bonus. Second Skin maxes at +5 Dex, soo.... what's going on here? He should easily be 15 EAC and 16 KAC.
Right. But by the same token the Space Pirate Crew Member has a +8 to hit, which is way higher than is even possible for a level 1 PC. They're going by somewhat different standards.
That doesn't mean their stats bear no resemblance to the reality PCs live in. They universally do exactly the listed damage for their weapons, +Str in melee +1 per CR (which neatly maps to Weapon Specialization, though they do get it from CR 1), for example, so if you want to give some different weapons that makes a real difference and is easily done. Or different armor (and all have an AC of at least 10+Armor Bonus), though in both cases too much of a change might necessitate a change in CR (though that fact's exactly the same as it always has been).
What's going on is that the monster is just a 'skeleton' of stats with descriptional fluff. It could be a Vesk or a Human or it could be in power armor or whatnot, but it's just a 'generic' statblock.
I get the distinct impression that Class and Racial Templates are real things and have real meaning. The aforementioned Space Pirate is a Human Soldier, for example. I bet that CR 1 Human Soldiers mostly look fairly similar but that, say, a CR 1 Vesk Soldier, or Human Operative would look quite different.
Why bother with the 'normal' stats at all if it's just got assigned attack, damage, AC, and HP for its CR?
Because that's not quite how that works. There's a generic stat line that gets modified by things to properly reflect how that class/race/whatever works.
That's why it's an MMO Monster. It doesn't really matter what it looks like, or what it carries, or what its stats are, because it's got about the same numbers no matter what. Oh, you might some variety in ones with a special ability or attack, but they are functionally the same chassis, and they probably break down into simple categories like Melee, Ranged, Caster, and Support.
Except that all those matter. Weapons determine damage, Dex determines Intiative, its class and race effect its stats, etc.
They don't work quite the same as they do for PCs, but they do matter.
They should have saved time and just put that into the main book. Would save a lot of time with the modules (IE: "CR 5 encounter made of 2x CR2 Melee and 1x CR2 Ranged")
Except it's nowhere near that simple, I'm pretty sure.
They don't add up the same way PCs do. That doesn't inherently mean they don't add up.
Yep, when I'm talking about the rules players use and then the monsters don't follow those rules, that would mean the monster stats don't add up.
Right. But by the same token the Space Pirate Crew Member has a +8 to hit, which is way higher than is even possible for a level 1 PC. They're going by somewhat different standards.
+1 BAB, +4 Dex, +1 Weapon Focus. Possible +1 enhancement if this was a Masterwork weapon in PF, which it obviously isn't.
Yep, different math.That doesn't mean their stats bear no resemblance to the reality PCs live in.
Good thing nobody ever claimed they didn't resemble them, then.
so if you want to give some different weapons that makes a real difference and is easily done. Or different armor, though in both cases too much of a change might necessitate a change in CR (though that fact's exactly the same as it always has been).
Changes some damage dice, maybe adds some special status or something depending on the weapon. Sure. Again, that wasn't a part of the argument, though the bonus "but it's a monster!" damage certainly is.
The armor doesn't matter. The purpose of Armor is to modify Armor Class. Look at the example statblock. The armor is just fluff.I get the distinct impression that Class and Racial Templates are real things and have real meaning.
Monsters don't have real classes any more. That went the way of Hit Dice. It's just the statblock. The chassis variants might modify it, but I double the Racial Template is going to matter all that much.
Because that's not quite how that works. There's a generic stat line that gets modified by things to properly reflect how that class/race/whatever works.
Which puts it clearly in the category of 'not normal stats', yes.
Except that all those matter. Weapons determine damage, Dex determines Intiative, its class and race effect its stats, etc.
Sure. Dex counting for Initiative clearly means it matters a great deal, despite it no longer applying to Armor Class, Saves, Skills, etc.
Except it's nowhere near that simple, I'm pretty sure.
Doubt it. They're just using modified (likely refined a bit) rules from an existing Pathfinder book. It is likely very simple, which is what they aimed for.
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What's going on is that the monster is just a 'skeleton' of stats with descriptional fluff. It could be a Vesk or a Human or it could be in power armor or whatnot, but it's just a 'generic' statblock.
Why bother with the 'normal' stats at all if it's just got assigned attack, damage, AC, and HP for its CR?
That's why it's an MMO Monster. It doesn't really matter what it looks like, or what it carries, or what its stats are, because it's got about the same numbers no matter what. Oh, you might some variety in ones with a special ability or attack, but they are functionally the same chassis, and they probably break down into simple categories like Melee, Ranged, Caster, and Support.
The normal stats are there for rolls that require normal stats. Like opposed Charisma checks, or straight Strength checks. You can't have monsters without Charisma values in a game with Charm Monster and Charm Person.
You might think 3.0, 3.5 and Pathfinder has a unified character and monster building rules - but I don't think it does.
For example, if someone asked me to build a 10th level Fighter character with a 15 point buy, I could do that no problem with the Pathfinder character creation rules in the CRB.
Now if someone asked me to build from scratch a balanced CR 10 monster that doesn't use equipment and fights in melee just using the core rulebook, how do I do it? I can't reference any other monster, no referencing Bestiary books, no other stat blocks to start from. I can just see what is in the core rule book, which completely defines character creation.
At the end of the day, a monster is a bunch of numbers. So is the character. How you arrive at those numbers isn't the same between characters and monsters even in Pathfinder or 3.0/3.5. Monsters simply don't use a 15 point buy system. They have arbitrary natural armor, or special abilities which adds an arbitrary number of deflection bonus.
Someone might say a monster has a Strength value that determines how hard it hits and how accurately. But how was that strength determined in the first place?
By relying on the same stats as characters you restrict freedom in the monster creation space, not increase it. By using strength, suddenly you've connected melee accuracy to melee damage to CMD and CMB, and lift capacity. Where as your "MMO" monster has the option of separating all those numbers out. You could have a highly accurate melee enemy, but who actually has a low CMD.
Thats one of the reasons at high level, no one can grapple melee enemies - they all need ridiculous strength to keep up with the Fighter's AC.
Its possible you will be able to make just as varied monsters and NPCs for any given CR with the Starfinder system as you could in Pathfinder. I mean, all CR 10 melee enemies in Pathfinder aren't going to have primary attacks with to-hit bonuses far away from +18 to +22.
Because there is a rough guideline:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/monsterCreation.html
At the end of the day, you can't actually deviate too far from expected performance, or else you change the CR. If the grafts or addons to the monster are done right in Starfinder, you'll be able to emphasize one aspect at the expense of another to maintain a challenge, but requiring different approaches by the players. We should wait and see what the system looks like before declaring it too limited or too MMO.
Anyways, that is how I see it at the moment. I am definitely interested in seeing the monster creation rules to see how they work. I'm hoping it works better than Pathfinder at high levels.
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Someone might say a monster has a Strength value that determines how hard it hits and how accurately. But how was that strength determined in the first place?
By relying on the same stats as characters you restrict freedom in the monster creation space, not increase it. By using strength, suddenly you've connected melee accuracy to melee damage to CMD and CMB, and lift capacity. Where as your "MMO" monster has the option of separating all those numbers out. You could have a highly accurate melee enemy, but who actually has a low CMD.
Amusingly, all Starfinder NPCs/monsters shown thus far have higher melee attacks if they have higher Str and higher ranged attacks if they have higher Dex. And all do very precisely Str+CR bonus damage on top of their melee weapon dice. And +CR on top of weapon on ranged attacks.
Now, granted, those weapon dice are apparently arbitrary in terms of natural attacks. Well, they're level appropriate, but otherwise mostly arbitrary. And the actual attack bonuses are clearly at least partly CR based (they do vary a bit even within a single CR)...but they're CR based in a way that actually corresponds to the abilities.
Just to keep how 'MMO' these monster stats appear to be in perspective.
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Soooo... MMO Monsters. Got it
Having separate math for players and everything else is one of the main things that made me hate 4th. Best thing 3rd did was unify the math for everything.
Hiruma, thanks for that link. It lets you see how their line of thinking slowly changed over time to come up with this system, and it's an interesting read, even if I disagree with the conclusions and results.
If the problem is that Mind Control results in one player destroying the party, the issue should be fixing that flaw, not re-writing the laws of the universe to change the result.
yup, this is rapidly becoming the thing I hate most about Starfinder.
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I like the fact that I don't have to spend a lot of time building NPCs and monsters. Quick builds and quick templates to just slap together. Add a feature here and there to get the flavor I want.
And I like the fact that you can't look at an enemy and completely metagame all knowledge about them, regardless of what the PC knows.
You might think 3.0, 3.5 and Pathfinder has a unified character and monster building rules - but I don't think it does.
Monster stats come from a system similar to what was presented in Pathfinder Unchained pp. 194-253. (Of course, we don't have access to the templates for the Starfinder Classes or Races.)
I know that this gives the designers (and hence the ... "Star Master"?) greater control of the balance of combat.
I am still getting a feel for how it is going to work. :\
yup, this is rapidly becoming the thing I hate most about Starfinder.Soooo... MMO Monsters. Got it
Having separate math for players and everything else is one of the main things that made me hate 4th. Best thing 3rd did was unify the math for everything.
Hiruma, thanks for that link. It lets you see how their line of thinking slowly changed over time to come up with this system, and it's an interesting read, even if I disagree with the conclusions and results.
If the problem is that Mind Control results in one player destroying the party, the issue should be fixing that flaw, not re-writing the laws of the universe to change the result.
Don't over-react yet. You should at least see how it works out in play. (Which you can do with a Starfinder Society scenario or two.)
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I already have - this has been the source of my frustrations is that none of it matches up well.
GMing it vs playing it has been a frustrating experience for me personally -- but it had been my assumption that the math and stuff was uneven because these were early scenarios and not by intention.
Like its just eh.
It makes GMing "easier" but it also makes it way less interesting to me.
I'm a VA which will make it tricky but I'm gonna avoid running this as much as possible now that I know this is all on purpose.
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Can we use First Contact as example though since that might have outdated rule stuff?
But yeah, until we actually get rules for NPCs, I don't think anyone should really bother reverse engineering NPCs since doing it without knowing the rules is really hard.
Also, can someone clarify to me what is the issue people are having? I mean, is it just that we don't know the rules yet(at least with pathfinder corerulebook you could use 3.5 materials before bestiary was released) or is it that CR balance works different from before? As in, previously it didn't exist at all and was mostly guideline while now its easier to predict how much damage NPCs can take/deal based on CR?
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Part of the problem (I think) is that you could be a level-3 human soldier fighting another level-3 human soldier, and his statblock will look nothing like your statblock, and he may even have abilities that you can never get, even though you are the same class.
Now most players will never notice a difference at the table, but it makes it hard to have a real person take over for a NPC in a campaign, and I also personally enjoy looking at NPC statblocks in PF and sometimes get ideas for future pcs based on how the authors built them.
It's not a huge deal, just something new to get used to.
ps I could be wrong as AA isnt out yet.