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I'm looking for ideas from this awesome community.
I have a player who is planning to go toe to toe with none other than Gorum himself around level 17 or 18.
Since the gods don't usually entertain the thoughts of such silly mortals I think he will make an exception for this character :)
So far I'm leaning towards the PC fighting a construct (since one of Gorums avatars is a suit of armor) that is a CR30 or 40.
I have the set up and the actual battlefield selected and done up I just need help on figuring out the stat block on the opponent.
/cheers/
I'm looking for ideas from this awesome community.
I have a player who is planning to go toe to toe with none other than Gorum himself around level 17 or 18.
Since the gods don't usually entertain the thoughts of such silly mortals I think he will make an exception for this character :)
So far I'm leaning towards the PC fighting a construct (since one of Gorums avatars is a suit of armor) that is a CR30 or 40.
I have the set up and the actual battlefield selected and done up I just need help on figuring out the stat block on the opponent.
/cheers/
17 or 18? I don't think he can survive an encounter like this... Why don't u simply get the most powerful Golem there and give it 20 fighter levels? Simple, effective and your player will die. :)
Are you talking about the God himself, or just an Avatar?
Even an Avatar would have all of the God's domains as spell-like abilities at CL 30 or 40. And can probably quicken those spell like abilities.
So, can your mortal handle a CL 40 Implosion with a DC of 40?
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17 or 18? I don't think he can survive an encounter like this... Why don't u simply get the most powerful Golem there and give it 20 fighter levels? Simple, effective and your player will die. :)
He knows he wont survive. He wants to go out in a blaze of glory as part of a reason why he wont be around when we start new characters and he plays his son. I like the idea but you know those crazy players, always doing the unexpected and sometimes pulling it off.
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I have a player who is planning to go toe to toe with none other than Gorum himself around level 17 or 18.
1. Make him create a society promoting peace and investing hard, cold money into peaceful utopias.
2. Wait some years.3. Watch as there isn't any war for the avatar of war and fighting to feast on.
4. Lol @ the god's face and ask him to be your friend.
5. ???
6. PROFIT !
OR
1. Go against Gorum.
2. Fuel the god of battle by wanting to fight against him.
3. Die like a (foolish, but somewhat heroic) mosquitoe.
why do you need a stat block if the encounter is likely to end after 1 round.
in 3.5 gods had feats that allowed them to always act first, never be surprised etc.
plus as mentioned, one spell and the fight has 95% chance of being over, and if not there is probably a quickened spell that will again have a 95% chance of ending the fight.
but if you want him to go out in a blaze, have the avatar summon some serious monsters while laughing at the opponent. Do this or other more passive actions until the PC has done at least 1 point of real damage to the avatar, then smite him with all you've got.
It's got a little bit of a 300 feel to it, the one who made a god bleed, that's worth a legend.
I'm assuming said player is a fighter or something. Gorum would NEVER use spells to fight against a fellow warrior, nor summong anything. He would go toe to toe with the guy, and crush him of course. But it would be a fun battle. As it should.
Get a copy of the 3.5 Deities and Demigods. It'll take you through building a god. Our home game group became deities last campaign, and it was actually tough keeping all the options straight.
Fair enough, use these stats:
AC: 50 (touch 5, flat, 50)
Cmb: +75, CMD 100
Constrict: (crushing hand) 10d10+100
Grab mortal. Squeeze the life out of him. The end.
Should have the god toy with him by sending outsider after outsider after him. After a few victories, Gorum can say "I have to admit, I'm impressed." and then golden-thumb him.
... only to have the PC show up later as an NPC, remade (and improved) as a servant of Gorum.
Gorum: "I killed him so I could remake him in my image. He was an impressive mortal, and worth keeping."
You guys do remember that Gods DID die by mortal hands, right?
It's suposed to be a VERY tough fight, like 2% chance of victory, but there should be a chance.
You guys do remember that Gods DID die by mortal hands, right?
It's suposed to be a VERY tough fight, like 2% chance of victory, but there should be a chance.
On Golarion? Which one? Got a source for that?
On Golarion? Which one? Got a source for that?You guys do remember that Gods DID die by mortal hands, right?
It's suposed to be a VERY tough fight, like 2% chance of victory, but there should be a chance.
Arazni The Harlot Queen of Geb, was a minor goddess when the Whispering Tyrant killed her in battle.
Now while the tyrant isn't exactly "mortal" he isn't a god, so I guess that counts for something.
Yeah she was a minor god, but her avatar was her, not just a projection but the whole package. So she was at best demon-lord power level. And the whispering tyrant can hardly be counted as a simple mortal or even mortal.
Mortals are not capable of harming a true god, much less kill them.
yeah but the OP basically said that he and the player both know that there is no chance for Gorum to lose, he just wants to role-play it out
I got that, I don't see a need for stats. He can't win and can't even hurt him. so have the player make rolls and just roll with it.
Sounds like your player wants to play out the battle (duel?) between Melkor and Fingolfin. Wants to have a epic battle and die and maybe leave a scar or two :)
Your player needs a brilliant energy weapon so that he can take the god's AC down from 60-70 something to a more reasonable 40 something. Gorum can't be a construct in this scenario though.
Mortals are not capable of harming a true god, much less kill them.Got a source for that?
Listen to the paizocon audio on this topic. Might provide some insight. The gods in their arrogance presumed that they were immortal. They learned differently and are now terrified of an opportunistic being(s) doing them in.
Its been stated a few times {mostly by James} that gods are beyond the realm of mortal to harm or kill. Gods fear what ever did Aroden in, but what ever that was it didn't play by the rules of gods for sure. And was able to break both prophecy and destiny. Not even the Whispering Tyrant could do that.
Bother: edit just pooped out on me. Trying this again...
On Golarion? Which one? Got a source for that?You guys do remember that Gods DID die by mortal hands, right?
It's suposed to be a VERY tough fight, like 2% chance of victory, but there should be a chance.
Yes.
The entire story-arc of Serpent Skull is about that very thing. A god (Ydersius) that was slain by a mortal warrior.
I grant - it's not exactly the same thing, but it's effectively the same thing.
Also, Geb not only raised a dead goddess as an undead, but also forcefully changed her alignment to evil, and altered her warrior-esque class levels to mage class levels and turned said goddess into a lich.
And, Seeker, wasn't there a Rakshasa who was completely immune to the gods or something? I seem to recall reading recently on one of the Pathfinder wikis. And if it's only something like a Rakshasa (technically an outsider) that's the requirements... that's not very big at all. Lots of ways to become an outsider, fey, or other creature type.
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A lot said since I was last online lol.
LazarX is right when a god walks into the room, stuff gets real.
I don't want to sit there and fudge numbers while doing an encounter with my pc. Once it gets abritary it gets frustraiting for them even if its a role play.
I'm going to look at that 3.5 gods and deities manual and see what it has to say to develop something as far as a stat block goes.
I like some of the ideas a few of you said. Hows this for an encounter:
PC and gorum clash with a "who can intimidate who better" match. They start to trade blows and the god round after round punishes the pc with big hits AND effects that require fortitude saves.
The challenge: Do a potential of x amount of damage and make x amount of saves. The point is to see if I can put him in a position where he tries to run away or not. If my player can do it then he will be made into a servent of the god as a reward. If not...well...it would have been a good run to level 18.
Bother: edit just pooped out on me. Trying this again...
On Golarion? Which one? Got a source for that?You guys do remember that Gods DID die by mortal hands, right?
It's suposed to be a VERY tough fight, like 2% chance of victory, but there should be a chance.
Yes.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
I grant - it's not exactly the same thing, but it's effectively the same thing.
Also, Geb not only raised a dead goddess as an undead, but also forcefully changed her alignment to evil, and altered her warrior-esque class levels to mage class levels and turned said goddess into a lich.
And, Seeker, wasn't there a Rakshasa who was completely immune to the gods or something? I seem to recall reading recently on one of the Pathfinder wikis. And if it's only something like a Rakshasa (technically an outsider) that's the requirements... that's not very big at all. Lots of ways to become an outsider, fey, or other creature type.
Arazni was a wizard from the start, and was a demigodess because Aroden powererd her. When she died (and the Whyspering Tyrant was no mortal when he killed her), Aroden took her divine spark away. So when Geb made her a lich, she was pissed off with Aroden and with Iomedae, that had replaced her. James Jacobs said that, much more well written, of course.
Its been stated a few times {mostly by James} that gods are beyond the realm of mortal to harm or kill.
No, I think he was referring to Chuck Norris.
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Its been stated a few times {mostly by James} that gods are beyond the realm of mortal to harm or kill. Gods fear what ever did Aroden in, but what ever that was it didn't play by the rules of gods for sure. And was able to break both prophecy and destiny. Not even the Whispering Tyrant could do that.Mortals are not capable of harming a true god, much less kill them.Got a source for that?
Listen to the paizocon audio on this topic. Might provide some insight. The gods in their arrogance presumed that they were immortal. They learned differently and are now terrified of an opportunistic being(s) doing them in.
Got a link to that? I'd like to see the developer POV. While I'm inclined to agree that killing a god is something that most mortals (and immortals for that matter) can't do, to say that it's beyond their reach... well that seems like the attitude of people who end up getting killed by a mortal ;)
Frist one I found and it covers it pretty nicely
In Pathfinder & Golarion, we have essentially 3 different ranks of "deity."
1) NASCENT DEITIES: We have things like nascent demon lords (like Treerazer) who can grant spells but are only CR 21 to CR 25. These guys are meant to fill the role of "let's kill an evil god as a capstone for this 1st to 20th level campaign" basically.
2) DEMIGODS: These guys are what mortals can (in theory) fight and defeat if the mortals are powerful and lucky enough. Demigods include things like demon lords, the Horsemen of the Apocalypse, and some regional deities like Achaekek (the mantis god) or Besmara (the pirate goddess). Whatever "CR" demigods end up at will occupy about the same niche as nascent deities do right now—+1 to +5 over whatever that ultimate, final level cap ends up being.
3) DEITIES: These are NOT things mortals can fight. They can oppose them, and given the right combination of legendary feats, they can even be defeated, but they won't ever have stat blocks. At least, not unless we decide to do a "Deity level ruleset" or something like that, but even then... I'm not keen on letting actual combat stats out for deities. The game would probably have to be completely different to accommodate that type of play experience.
One one dead Goddess we have that was killed by a "Mortal" creature {using the term mortal very loosely here) was 1 or 2.
It is, but the topic was upon "epic" rules so some of the wording has to do with much of the topics being spoken of. Also opposing is not the same as battling head on.
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Another way around this is to switch things up.
From Gorum's perspective, he would not want to waste the value of such a great warrior (17th or 18th lvl). So his endgame is to make him a cohort general or warlord or whatever Gorum calls his divine minions in his endless battles on his home plane.
Gorum could send his avatar to meet this fighter, and tell him he has to prove his worth before he can meet Gorum in person. Then have said avatar teleport him away to a huge battlefield where carnage is about to take place. He has an army behind him, and they are facing an even bigger army, say of devils, demons, something that Gorum might fight in an interplanar conflict. NOW you can make it any sort of horrific, mindblowing, never to be forgotten battle of all battles, that your character will eventually die from facing demon lords archdevils, etc.
When he dies, Gorum faces him and raises him up to be his divine cohort. Then he can appear to his son and inspire him in the name of Gorum, so you get this epic tie in with his new character.
Just some thoughts of how you could handle this less fiat-ish and still have the guy go out in a blaze of glory.
Another way around this is to switch things up.
From Gorum's perspective, he would not want to waste the value of such a great warrior (17th or 18th lvl). So his endgame is to make him a cohort general or warlord or whatever Gorum calls his divine minions in his endless battles on his home plane.
Gorum could send his avatar to meet this fighter, and tell him he has to prove his worth before he can meet Gorum in person. Then have said avatar teleport him away to a huge battlefield where carnage is about to take place. He has an army behind him, and they are facing an even bigger army, say of devils, demons, something that Gorum might fight in an interplanar conflict. NOW you can make it any sort of horrific, mindblowing, never to be forgotten battle of all battles, that your character will eventually die from facing demon lords archdevils, etc.
When he dies, Gorum faces him and raises him up to be his divine cohort. Then he can appear to his son and inspire him in the name of Gorum, so you get this epic tie in with his new character.Just some thoughts of how you could handle this less fiat-ish and still have the guy go out in a blaze of glory.
I approve of this concept, but it isn't actually what the player wants (now he could be swayed but that's irrelevent). I'd say build yourself an Iron Golem or such (or one of the outsider Inevitables or whatever) and tack on 20 levels of Paladin and say go! Thatd be my "Quick and Dirty" way.
As to the topic James and company have mentioned (as referenced) they aren't big into the pcs can kill gods idea. However it is definately a player favorite pass time since early editions (I can remember many games being based around that) and is still prevelent today (God of War anyone?)
I'd agree to the general principle with Stewart Perkins' assessment, however...
I'd say build yourself an Iron Golem ...
While it iron golem is thematically appropriate, you might actually want to make it an adamantine golem [Beastiary 2] (that looks like "a suit of armor made of iron") with those levels to make it truly a godlike power. You might also want to "tweak" it by plopping in the mithril golem's speed, and the glass golem's spell reflection stuff just to make it seem "godly" (all in the Bestiary 2). Dropping in a Balor's constitution score (CON 36) and it just kind of screams "I'm one bad suckah!".
...(or one of the outsider Inevitables or whatever)
Choosing an outsider - probably something like a powerful demon or kekatar - would be a great way to simulate semi-appropriate spell-like abilities. Again, looking at Bestiary 2, you have the proteans (chaotic outsiders) with reality bending power, or various battle-focused demons for spell-likes, with few minor adjustment (replacing dispel good with dispel law and removing and ignoring/removing things like desecrate as examples). The azata are a possibility, although their stuff isn't as thematically appropriate, I think (I could be wrong, however).
and tack on 20 levels of Paladin and say go!
While I like the idea of paladin, Gorum's alignment (CN) kind of strongly prohibits it. Nonetheless, dropping that much fighter onto the guy is also probably not the way to go, unless you like choosing feats. A lot of feats. Dozens of them. For one encounter. *shudders* So you might want to somewhat adapt the Paladin, again, switching up the good/evil dichotomy - smite evil now becomes smite law, or similar. Alternatively, you could put the barbarian class in... although bare in mind, a raging (any kind of)-golem-cum-(demon-or-proteon)* is a terrible, terrible thing.
Thatd be my "Quick and Dirty" way.
Overall (despite my suggestions) it's a pretty good one, too!
As to the topic James and company have mentioned (as referenced) they aren't big into the pcs can kill gods idea. However it is definately a player favorite pass time since early editions (I can remember many games being based around that) and is still prevelent today (God of War anyone?)
There were even official modules that more-or-less had you doing that exact thing. Golarion is a different beast, it's true, but it's fun to consider, nonetheless!
*Okay, a corpse golem-cum-dretch wouldn't be so horrible in every way, even when raging. However: a 20th level barbarian is nothing to sneeze at no matter what the creature base.
The real trick to killing a god is remembering to bring your Sphere of Annihilation with you.
So the god, with their vastly greater intellect, can take it from you?
I can see it now.. "You brought a sphere of annihilation to a god fight?"The real trick to killing a god is remembering to bring your Sphere of Annihilation with you.So the god, with their vastly greater intellect, can take it from you?
Well, how about this. My "luck" versus this thing's "curse"... wanna see what's stronger...? If I lose, then I'm just that much of a man anyways...
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17 or 18? I don't think he can survive an encounter like this... Why don't u simply get the most powerful Golem there and give it 20 fighter levels? Simple, effective and your player will die. :)
Neutronium Golem - CR 9721
Epic Bestiary - Eternity PublishingI don't think it will need the 20 fighter levels.