I'm trying to build a human Phantom Thief that has access to all 35 skills. So far, the rogue:
- is a human with the Focused Study racial trait to get Skill Focus (Perception, Stealth, and UMD),
- is a worshipper of Irori for the sake of getting Wisdom in the Flesh (Fly) and Deific/Diverse Obedience,
- has the Cunning and Fast Learner feats.
This is more a thought experiment than anything else. With such a high focus on intelligence in mind, I was thinking about making the rogue focus on the Major Magic talents and get the Bookish Rogue feat.
Any thoughts on how I can improve this?
With max int at 1st lvl, favored class, level ability score bonuses, 5 from wishes, headband +6, cunning, human skilled, plus the rogue's 8 gets you to 24 per level.
There are probably some obscure ways of getting more, but I don't have time to look for them at the moment.
Base 8 from class, +11 from old age resulting in a 32 Int at 20th including a +5 tome of clear thought, +1 skilled human trait, +1 favored class benefit (fast learner does not add a 2nd rank/level) and +1 Cunning feat gives a total of 22 skill ranks per level.
+6 headband of vast intellect adds 3 specific skills - presuming there is no overlap that is a total of 25 skill ranks per level.
If you are able to select the Finding Haleen campaign trait, add another 1/level for a total of 26 skill ranks per level.
Bards' versatile performance can add more over time, effectively adding 2 skills per versatile performance. Base of 6 per level starts off a bit slower than a rogue's base of 8.
However, there is a fair bit of overlap between the versatile performances. A bard gets 5 versatile performances, of which four are not overlapping with each other: act, dance, oratory and percussion instruments (in which order is up to you). These four eliminate the need to have skill ranks in Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Fly, Handle Animal, Intimidate and Sense Motive by 14th level. This gets the character to 28 skill ranks per level without the Finding Haleen campaign trait, 27 skill ranks per level without having to be old.
If the group uses Background Skills from Ultimate Campaign, add another 2 skill ranks per level and apply them to two of the Perform skills. For the versatile performance bard above, those 2 free skill ranks per level by 6th level added 4 more skills gratis. Effectively speaking the character is now at 29 or 30 skill ranks per level (+1 for Finding Haleen).
Getting closer to 35. ;)
If you are able to select the Finding Haleen campaign trait, add another 1/level for a total of 26 skill ranks per level.
Finding Haleen is a D&D 3.5 trait. If we're considering 3.5 content, then that opens up a huge bag of worms in terms of other converted options. It's probably best not to include it.
get a +2 profane bonus to int from a succubus (or a +6 from nocticula[WotR anyone?]). If mythic is allowed it's stupid easy. Else, since we're now at 31 or 33 ranks per level, grand cognatogen for +8 int is 35 or 37(!!!1) skill ranks per level. more skill ranks per level than there are skills is prety dope, if you ask me.
woops! no finding haleen. then it's 34 or 36 in WotR. CRAPPPPPP
If you are able to select the Finding Haleen campaign trait, add another 1/level for a total of 26 skill ranks per level.Finding Haleen is a D&D 3.5 trait. If we're considering 3.5 content, then that opens up a huge bag of worms in terms of other converted options. It's probably best not to include it.
It's a campaign trait pre-Pathfinder, but yeah, it's best avoided for this purpose.
get a +2 profane bonus to int from a succubus (or a +6 from nocticula[WotR anyone?]). If mythic is allowed it's stupid easy. Else, since we're now at 31 or 33 ranks per level, grand cognatogen for +8 int is 35 or 37(!!!1) skill ranks per level. more skill ranks per level than there are skills is prety dope, if you ask me.
Keeping that cognatogen running long enough to count as a permanent bonus without dipping into non-8-skill-point classes will be tricky.
If you can use 3.5 options nymph kissed gives +1 skill rank per level, +2 to cha based checks and +1 to saves vs spells
NO 3.5!!!!!
sorry. triggered.but anyway, one +1 is all we need now! ONE!
get a +2 profane bonus to int from a succubus (or a +6 from nocticula[WotR anyone?]). If mythic is allowed it's stupid easy. Else, since we're now at 31 or 33 ranks per level, grand cognatogen for +8 int is 35 or 37(!!!1) skill ranks per level. more skill ranks per level than there are skills is prety dope, if you ask me.Keeping that cognatogen running long enough to count as a permanent bonus without dipping into non-8-skill-point classes will be tricky.
can't you just get another alchemist to make it for you and then drink it?
oh NVM
get a +2 profane bonus to int from a succubus (or a +6 from nocticula[WotR anyone?]). If mythic is allowed it's stupid easy. Else, since we're now at 31 or 33 ranks per level, grand cognatogen for +8 int is 35 or 37(!!!1) skill ranks per level. more skill ranks per level than there are skills is prety dope, if you ask me.
Alchemists have base 4 ranks per level, so all the grand cognaton does is put them at parity with rogues. Both fall behind the versatile performance bard after 6th level.
The profane gift from a succubus is another +1 ... but is it worth the price of a damned soul? ;)
If you become the monsters you fight in WotR, sure you can bump that up to 32 ranks per level as an Old Bard by 14th.
Finally, Craft and Profession are multiple individual skills lumped under one 'header' skill (as is true for Knowledge and Perform). Ballpark factoring in Craft, Perform and Profession there are, oh, call it 80 or 90 skills in Pathfinder. Somewhere about there.
What would be a better deity to worship than Irori? I know +4 to all knowledge skills is hard to give up, but what about Mestama? Her second fiendish boon allows you to become a ghost and possibly remove the age penalties from being venerable. You get a +4 bonus to charisma, too.
well, If you're an alchemist you can get awakened intellect at lvl 20 for another +2 int, making you a little ahead of the rogue at 31 skill ranks.
and as for my soul, it ain't worth much anyway, so you might as well.
In terms of raw numbers of skill ranks, deity seems to be irrelevant. In terms of bonuses that is an entirely different matter as you've been finding. ;)
You "only" need to be Old, a steep price to pay for 1 skill rank per level. Without going through inordinate hoops the versatile performance bard seems to be the best way to get the highest number of skill ranks per level at 29/level-equivalent. Background skills are pretty important from a skill ranks efficiency standpoint.
At 14th level, knocking off 2 Int for missing the 16th and 20th level advancement bonuses and entirely removing the +5 inherent bonus still gives the versatile performance bard a 25 Int resulting in the equivalent of 22 skill ranks per level plus whatever skills one's headband is providing. (I'd recommend having the headband provide Climb, Stealth and Swim.)
Might as well be venerable. Especially since you can just reincarnate once you reach it and keep the mental bonuses.
well, If you're an alchemist you can get awakened intellect at lvl 20 for another +2 int, making you a little ahead of the rogue at 31 skill ranks.
and as for my soul, it ain't worth much anyway, so you might as well.
Alchemist is 4 ranks/level behind the rogue and 2 ranks/level behind the bard (before the bard's versatile performance is factored in). Cognatons are temporary - far as I know there's no way to have a mutagen or equivalent constantly "on".
Not sure one's only grand discovery at 20th level is worth burning off for 1 skill rank per level. OTOH, calling up a succubus for the profane gift is manageable on the relative cheap. Just keep in mind the price tag - losing the gift causes 2d6 Cha drain with no save if you make the succubus unhappy.
Might as well be venerable. Especially since you can just reincarnate once you reach it and keep the mental bonuses.
Wait, you can reincarnate and keep the mental bonuses? Can you also become venerable post-reincarnation? If that is the case, then what's stopping you from reincarnating repeatedly to accrue more age bonuses?
Might as well be venerable. Especially since you can just reincarnate once you reach it and keep the mental bonuses.
Yes, you keep the mental ability scores, they are unaffected by reincarnate. Same source applies as does "bonus type" (being 'age bonus'), if not officially then for the sake of simplicity. There's enough other shenanigans possible already. ;)
It is best to be old or venerable at the beginning of play in most cases. The only way one is able to accrue age bonuses is to grow old.
Being old means you're not sucking on the -6 venerable physical age penalties from venerable until you can afford the reincarnation and the 2,000 gp of material components for the pair of restorations you'll need to remove the two permanent negative levels.
Not to mention that it is possible that the first few levels of game time could take longer than the minute number of years left in one's human natural lifespan before obtaining the cash to cover the costs of reincarnation and restoration.
It's unlikely that the venerable age will gack you from age before hand - but not all GMs let the player roll that (2d20). You could have as little as 2 years before kicking the bucket. ;)
The -3 on Reflex and Fort saves and -3 hp/level are far more likely to get you gacked from the venerable penalties. Old age is a -1 typically, -2 is possible of course.
Lastly, reincarnating from human into anything other than human - going on memory - taps your Con score down by 2 before applying the new species benefits, so that is a calculated risk to bear in mind.
tl;dr: reincarnate is awesome, just be aware of the risks before you can afford to thwart the trip to the Boneyard.
Probably something related to oracle of nature level 20 and infinite shenanigans. Heard you like to reincarnate/awaken.
I have a hard-n-fast rule that a character can't attain a natural ability score above 25 for Str/Dex/Con or 28 for Int/Wis/Cha - the latter only via age bonus. Applying inherent bonuses and enhancement bonuses can bump those up by another 11 each as normal. Alchemical, size and other bonuses apply afterwards.
I would say 32 skill ranks/level should be the target, because while there are 35 skills three of them (craft, perform, and profession) come in an arbitrary number of flavors. So while you could have max ranks in Perform (Comedy) you wouldn't know how to play a sackbutt and while you could have max ranks in Craft (Armor) you wouldn't know how to make arrows.
So learn everything about the other 32 skills and let other people handle the other stuff.
I think a Fighter can get more than anyone else. Taking Advance Armor Training and Weapon Training, he can grab Acrobatics, Bluff, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (Engineering), Ride, and Swim.
Thats 2 + int + 8 from weapon training. Plus another 1-3 depending on what weapon you use.
11 (int) + 2 (class) + 7 (advance armor) + 2 (advance weapon) + 1 (human skilled) + 1 cunning + 1 favored class bonus.
25 skill ranks for a stupidly int fighter. This doesn't include Profession (soldier) from Adaptable Training or Craft (Armor) from Master Armorer. That could be 27 if those skills are important.
You don't need to put skill ranks in all skills.
You can build to have all skills count as trained for purposes of rolling + bonuses to skills with zero ranks. E.G. Half Elf with Improved Improvisation, Bardic Knowledge and Breadth of Experience.
Breadth of Experience is a tough feat for a human to qualify for. My human oracle managed to snag it only via a 3rd party mystery.
Reincarnate revives you with a new body. So your mental stats stay the same, but your physical stats could change. As for what's stopping you? Well not much besides your GM, oh and the flow of time. I mean after reincarnating, you would have to wait until your "new" body is venerable again. Which depending on your new race, could take a very long time. But that could be sped up if you can create your own demi-plane.Might as well be venerable. Especially since you can just reincarnate once you reach it and keep the mental bonuses.Wait, you can reincarnate and keep the mental bonuses? Can you also become venerable post-reincarnation? If that is the case, then what's stopping you from reincarnating repeatedly to accrue more age bonuses?
You don't need to wait for your new body to be venerable again.
That's clever and not so easily abused. Nice.
Breadth of Experience is a tough feat for a human to qualify for. My human oracle managed to snag it only via a 3rd party mystery.
Half Elves qualify for both human and elven feats and are treated as "old" at 100 years, not "Venerable".
No, not to reincarnate again. But I think what reduxist was getting at, is to stack the bonus from reaching a venerable age multiple times and reincarnate afterwards.You don't need to wait for your new body to be venerable again.Reincarnate revives you with a new body. So your mental stats stay the same, but your physical stats could change. As for what's stopping you? Well not much besides your GM, oh and the flow of time. I mean after reincarnating, you would have to wait until your "new" body is venerable again. Which depending on your new race, could take a very long time. But that could be sped up if you can create your own demi-plane.Might as well be venerable. Especially since you can just reincarnate once you reach it and keep the mental bonuses.Wait, you can reincarnate and keep the mental bonuses? Can you also become venerable post-reincarnation? If that is the case, then what's stopping you from reincarnating repeatedly to accrue more age bonuses?
If you can do a reincarnation loop, then what age do you start at? If we bring age into account, then it might take longer to reach venerable age. If that's the case, then it might be more economical to reach "earlier" old ages. The way I see it, only shamans can do this, since they can remove the negative levels that reincarnate usually brings via restoration.
Well, you can ignore all the knowledge skills if you have a Sage (archetype) familiar. They also get two skill ranks per level to spend how they wish. I'd suggest Sleight of Hand and Disable device (if you have a monkey, for example). That way, you don't have to invest in 12 of the skills.
Investing their general feats into skills, heck yeah, that's good stuff Caith. Doesn't require cashiering into an archetype either, which is nice.
Well, you can ignore all the knowledge skills if you have a Sage (archetype) familiar. They also get two skill ranks per level to spend how they wish. I'd suggest Sleight of Hand and Disable device (if you have a monkey, for example). That way, you don't have to invest in 12 of the skills.
That's a good point. Give them six levels and they can get a rank in each of those skills, bringing them up to +4. Get them to 20 and they can reach +14 per skill.
But how about Improved Familiar? I know ratlings are good since they can use scrolls, but casissian angels make excellent scouts since they can collect and recall information perfectly. Paracletus aeons can grant a +2 to face skills on top of having Extension of All grant them a bonus to knowledge checks equal to 1/2 their hit dice.
If you're going to go third party, might as well go with the I Totally Have All The Skill Ranks archetype. : /
Half-Elf with Reflexive Improvisation racial trait (+2)
Feats: Fast Learner, Improvisation, Improved Improvisation (+4)
Class Abilities: Evangelist 5 Multitude of Talents (+4)
Traits: Worldly gives 1/day reroll of untrained skill
So at 10th level you can use any skill with a +10 bonus and a reroll when you need it. Nice thing is that other than using up 4 of your feats you could do this with just about any class.
14 levels of bard for the 4 versatile performances then switch over to rogue for a couple extra skill points per level.