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Since Bleed damage is listed as being continous damage until a medicine check or an HP restoring effect is used. Do bleed effects deal Hit Points directly, bypassing SP?
Bleeding
You take the listed amount of damage at the beginning of your turn each round until this condition ends. Your bleeding can be stopped with a successful DC 15 Medicine check as a standard action, or through the application of any ability that restores Hit Points. If you take two or more bleed effects, you take only the damage from the worst effect.
If bleed damage bypassed SP, it would be called out explicitly. Bleed damage is just like any other damage. As far as I know, that are no attacks that bypass SP.
It's pretty cool that a 10 minute rest can replenish lost blood.
Not heal actual hit point damage but use any ability that would heal actual hit point damage. You can stop bleed before you drop into your HP.
Yeah, you can recover your stamina, but you are still losing blood.
Conceivably, trying to rest while having a bleed effect would kill you since if you have 1 bleed damage per round while resting it would amount to 100 points of damage you would take.
Officially there is not a resolution for having bleed damage and trying to rest, and that probably should be addressed. Something as simple as "you can't rest while taking ongoing damage".
If bleed damage bypassed SP, it would be called out explicitly. Bleed damage is just like any other damage. As far as I know, that are no attacks that bypass SP.Bleeding
You take the listed amount of damage at the beginning of your turn each round until this condition ends. Your bleeding can be stopped with a successful DC 15 Medicine check as a standard action, or through the application of any ability that restores Hit Points. If you take two or more bleed effects, you take only the damage from the worst effect.
So, if you have 20 hp and 30 stamina, get hit for 7 damage, and start bleeding, you're saying me that if I still have stamina, I must stop the bleeding with a medicine check or by magic that restore hp damage, even I'm not taking hp damage?
As for the above, I'm 20 hp, 23 stamina, and now I roll bbleed for 4. Now I'm at 19 stamina, right? Ok, now, the priest cast mystic cure, because he get some damage and just want to heal himself too. Now, he cast mystic cure, but I'm not short of hp, I'm full, os he "split" the cure by taking al the cure fo himself. And now, without curing a single hp, he healed me from bleeding?
Basically, Stamina Points work exactly like HP except they're thematically different and can be regained by resting and spending a resolve point (unlike actual HP).
Overall, it works pretty much exactly like HP in Pathfinder did alone. Except now you have a pool of HP that can be restored by resting.
As for your examples questions, yes even though you haven't had any actual HP damage you are still taking the reoccurring bleed damage.
As for you second question, I understand the problem though I had to go look up some rules.
It's important to note that healing spells only heal HP not stamina unless they specify otherwise, mystic cure doesn't specify other so it only heals HP. If you didn't have any hp damage it would essentially be a waste. However, I think that if you have received healing (even if it doesn't restore any HP) that it should stop the bleed effect on you.
But HP could already be restored by resting . . .
HP can be restored by resting for 8 hours, were talking about the new rest mechanic which allows you to heal your stamina by resting for 10 minutes.
A full night's rest restores all stamina and resolve, but only one hit point per level -- so in the absence of a mystic, hit point damage could take a week or more to heal fully.
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By the way -- have any effects that bypass damage to stamina and go directly to damaging hit points been identified? I don't recall seeing any, but I do recall reading about them prior to the rulebook coming out.
I don't know of any, but would interested to learn what they are.
Since HP pools are much smaller, killing someone by ignoring SP and going straight for HP seems like it could be useful.
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I don't know of any, but would interested to learn what they are.
Since HP pools are much smaller, killing someone by ignoring SP and going straight for HP seems like it could be useful.
/beginsnark
"Oh my god dude, you lost like a pint of blood!"
"it's cool, gimme 10 minutes and Ill make more"
/endsnark
Seriously though, it does work like that. You can't prevent all the weird little thematic vs realities issues out of a game.
I can't find any effects that go right to HPs either, though I thought it would be cool if crits could go directly to HP instead of x2 damage like in the old SW game. but HP are high is SF so maybe not as cool an idea.
Smaller, more dangerous damage ticking away your life, sapping away your very own blood.
It's not like Poison ticks away your stamina before killing you. "because stamina is there".
Needs clarification imho
What needs clarification? Damage is damage. Bleeding continues until a healing effect or medicine check.
There isn't any ambiguity in the rules.
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Bleed stops with an HP healing while dealing SP damage. For me it is an inconsistency.
I would have called it "lingering pain" to go on SP and then HP.
And Bleed directly on HP and far greater in risk factor.
Just think in any imagery, everyone shouts that "I can't stop the bleeding! he's bleeding out!"
In SF this is completely inverted.
"Whoa dude chill i'm JUST bleeding."
IDk it sounds wrong with the distinction between SP and HP so clearly defined. It was ok with the Pathfinder HP that was one nebulous pool of "how close you are to get the real kill blow"
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Bleed stops with an HP healing while dealing SP damage. For me it is an inconsistency.
I would have called it "lingering pain" to go on SP and then HP.
And Bleed directly on HP and far greater in risk factor.Just think in any imagery, everyone shouts that "I can't stop the bleeding! he's bleeding out!"
In SF this is completely inverted.
"Whoa dude chill i'm JUST bleeding."IDk it sounds wrong with the distinction between SP and HP so clearly defined. It was ok with the Pathfinder HP that was one nebulous pool of "how close you are to get the real kill blow"
That's about the same place I am with it, though I think it's simply an issue where they had too tangled a web to make an exception or just didnt think about it.
Ima just force my mind to ignore the thematic inconsistency an just be mildly annoyed by it.
Do SP healing effects even exist? Seems so far that all healing just says HP.
But anyway, a thematic inconsistency isn't a rules inconsistency. After so many years of absurd rationalization about what HP are and what they mean, I can't care. They're ridiculous abstractions, and having some seperated out as a slightly different abstraction for a less 15 minute and healbot free workday is fine to me.
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Do SP healing effects even exist? Seems so far that all healing just says HP.
But anyway, a thematic inconsistency isn't a rules inconsistency. After so many years of absurd rationalization about what HP are and what they mean, I can't care. They're ridiculous abstractions, and having some seperated out as a slightly different abstraction for a less 15 minute and healbot free workday is fine to me.
Envoy I believe (but may be Operative-at work, no book handy) can heal SP, but that's the only instance I or my group has found.
Good point too in general.
Mind that It's not make or break issue. It's just inconsistent. I would have called the effect differently and put bleed as a more risky condition. That's all. If the general consensus is that it deals SP damage and then HP damage as normal, i'll just call it "Lingering Pain" in my games. It's not really an issue.
I don't know of any, but would interested to learn what they are.
Since HP pools are much smaller, killing someone by ignoring SP and going straight for HP seems like it could be useful.
/beginsnark
"Oh my god dude, you lost like a pint of blood!"
"it's cool, gimme 10 minutes and Ill make more"
/endsnark
Seriously though, it does work like that. You can't prevent all the weird little thematic vs realities issues out of a game.
I can't find any effects that go right to HPs either, though I thought it would be cool if crits could go directly to HP instead of x2 damage like in the old SW game. but HP are high is SF so maybe not as cool an idea.
Probably more like,
"Oh my god dude, you lost like a pint of blood!"
"it's cool... I have a protein bar and a few minutes to rest and get my breath back."
I am curious to see how stamina and hit points work out; in d20 Star Wars and Spycraft, it never seemed to work out, and got too fiddly to track separately. I understand wanting to make characters more robust, but they feel almost a little TOO robust in Starfinder. Proof's in the playing, I guess.
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I don't know of any, but would interested to learn what they are.
Since HP pools are much smaller, killing someone by ignoring SP and going straight for HP seems like it could be useful.
/beginsnark
"Oh my god dude, you lost like a pint of blood!"
"it's cool, gimme 10 minutes and Ill make more"
/endsnark
Seriously though, it does work like that. You can't prevent all the weird little thematic vs realities issues out of a game.
I can't find any effects that go right to HPs either, though I thought it would be cool if crits could go directly to HP instead of x2 damage like in the old SW game. but HP are high is SF so maybe not as cool an idea.
Probably more like,
"Oh my god dude, you lost like a pint of blood!"
"it's cool... I have a protein bar and a few minutes to rest and get my breath back."
I prefer to use the imagery of sitting quietly while mentally yelling at my cells to make more or else, but that's just me.
You can also spend 10 minutes and a Resolve Point to get all of your Stamina Points back -- and you do recover all of your Stamina Points and Resolve Points with a night's rest, in contrast to Hit Points, for which you only recover one per level per night's rest.
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What needs clarification? Damage is damage. Bleeding continues until a healing effect or medicine check.
There isn't any ambiguity in the rules.
A healing effect stop something that affect something you never heal via that healing effect. And since when I cast mystic cure I can redirect to me any residual hp left, while you bleed on stamina, I can stop your stmaina and give myself a full cure. So I never healed you by a single point, but somehow I healed you from a the blood flowing outside your body.
Really you can't see ambiguity or inconsistence?
What needs clarification? Damage is damage. Bleeding continues until a healing effect or medicine check.
There isn't any ambiguity in the rules.
A healing effect stop something that affect something you never heal via that healing effect. And since when I cast mystic cure I can redirect to me any residual hp left, while you bleed on stamina, I can stop your stmaina and give myself a full cure. So I never healed you by a single point, but somehow I healed you from a the blood flowing outside your body.
Really you can't see ambiguity or inconsistence?
Not in the rules, no. If mystic cure is doing something weird, it doesn't show up in Keskodai's write up.
I'm not sure what 'stop your stamina' means. If you mean stop the bleed, that's entirely consistent with the rules presented. Hence, the lack of any ambiguity or inconsistency- the presented rules really do function.
If your point is that magical healing and hit points is inconsistent with how injuries work in the real world, well, welcome to D&D, circa 1974, but that doesn't have anything to do with the rules being consistent
@Haster- good point, I missed that envoy ability.
Sounds like you want at least 1 person at the table with a medpatch and the medicine skill. Otherwise that "bleed for x every round" debuff will kill you way before that 10 minute rest ends.
Not heal actual hit point damage but use any ability that would heal actual hit point damage. You can stop bleed before you drop into your HP.
This makes the most sense.
Not in the rules, no. If mystic cure is doing something weird, it doesn't show up in Keskodai's write up.I'm not sure what 'stop your stamina' means. If you mean stop the bleed, that's entirely consistent with the rules presented. Hence, the lack of any ambiguity or inconsistency- the presented rules really do function.
Nowhere in mystic cure says there's any effect on stamina loss. Indeed, it specifically call out for hp, never stmaina. But you stop the stamina loss.
If your point is that magical healing and hit points is inconsistent with how injuries work in the real world, well, welcome to D&D, circa 1974, but that doesn't have anything to do with the rules being consistent
That's not my point, sorry. Wrong directed sarcasm.
From bleeding staus: "Your bleeding can be
stopped with a successful DC 15 Medicine check as a standard
action, or through the application of any ability that restores Hit
Points."
So, I stop a stamina loss by restoring hp, while restoring hp never affect stamina?
Oh, and by the way, you're also saying that the Envoy's Inspiring Boost doesn't stop bleeding even if it restores stamina points ("through the application of any ability that restores Hit
Points", not stamina points). So not only you're saying that there are no problem with bleed going on stamina that can only be stopped by restoring hp (you stop a stamina loss by restoring hp, even if you don't restore a single hp), but you're also stating that, since the envoy's ability don't restore hp, it cures stamina points but can't stop the continual loss of stamina points.
You call that consistent?
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Not in the rules, no. If mystic cure is doing something weird, it doesn't show up in Keskodai's write up.I'm not sure what 'stop your stamina' means. If you mean stop the bleed, that's entirely consistent with the rules presented. Hence, the lack of any ambiguity or inconsistency- the presented rules really do function.
Nowhere in mystic cure says there's any effect on stamina loss. Indeed, it specifically call out for hp, never stmaina. But you stop the stamina loss.
If your point is that magical healing and hit points is inconsistent with how injuries work in the real world, well, welcome to D&D, circa 1974, but that doesn't have anything to do with the rules being consistent
That's not my point, sorry. Wrong directed sarcasm.
From bleeding staus: "Your bleeding can be
stopped with a successful DC 15 Medicine check as a standard
action, or through the application of any ability that restores Hit
Points."So, I stop a stamina loss by restoring hp, while restoring hp never affect stamina?
Oh, and by the way, you're also saying that the Envoy's Inspiring Boost doesn't stop bleeding even if it restores stamina points ("through the application of any ability that restores Hit
Points", not stamina points). So not only you're saying that there are no problem with bleed going on stamina that can only be stopped by restoring hp (you stop a stamina loss by restoring hp, even if you don't restore a single hp), but you're also stating that, since the envoy's ability don't restore hp, it cures stamina points but can't stop the continual loss of stamina points.You call that consistent?
Seriously, we need to stop thinking about this as though it makes some sort of real life sense. Its a game mechanic.
also, just to be clear, you stop the bleed condition with an ability that CAN restore HP. - this is similar to PF and, correct me if I am wrong, but when used in this way the ability ONLY stops the bleeding and does not cure any HPs.
Last, they used the term "bleeding" for the condition b/c its a recognized condition and easy enough to understand.Then they also applied a similar system proven to work in PF, that of the cure spell stopping bleeding. - they simply did not bother to address the fact the SPs dont really rep bleeding very well THEMATICALLY.
thats it, its tried and true mechanics used again here. If they said only abilities that restore SPs stop bleeding then that would seriously reduce the available ways to stop bleeding,
give up on the "this seems inconsistent" angle or you'll go nuts. This won't be the only one in SF, and I can't even begin to tell you how many exist in PF, let alone any number of other systems.
Seriously, we need to stop thinking about this as though it makes some sort of real life sense. Its a game mechanic.
Sorry, never thought about it like something that make real life sense. Exactly because it's a mechanic I see a bit of inconsistence.
also, just to be clear, you stop the bleed condition with an ability that CAN restore HP.
Nope. The percise wording is "through the application of any ability that restores Hit Points", not "that CAN restore hp". If you want to point out the single word, please stay on the text.
- this is similar to PF and, correct me if I am wrong, but when used in this way the ability ONLY stops the bleeding and does not cure any HPs.
In pf a cure stop the bleeding AND cures pf. Exactly as mystic cure do when the bleeding reach (one way or another) the hp limit. You can't ocmpare Pf, though, because a bleed damage is always a damage cured by cure spells (there's some ability that deal ability score bleed, but those are exceptions.)
Last, they used the term "bleeding" for the condition b/c its a recognized condition and easy enough to understand.Then they also applied a similar system proven to work in PF, that of the cure spell stopping bleeding. - they simply did not bother to address the fact the SPs dont really rep bleeding very well THEMATICALLY.
But they always specify, in SF, if the cure is on the stamina or the hp. Always. And in pf a cure cures all. In SF it cures only hp, never stamina.
give up on the "this seems inconsistent" angle or you'll go nuts.
Thanks for the advice. Anyway I'll give up when I'll get an official answer. I'll not go nut, really.
This won't be the only one in SF, and I can't even begin to tell you how many exist in PF, let alone any number of other systems.
Seems you think I'm a newbie. I'm not. I'm fully aware of almost all inconsistencies, I found several corner case. So don't bother about that. Really. I appreciate your worries about me, but I can handle it.
That said, let alone the consistence: if bleeding damage goes on stmaina, why the envoy's Inspiring Boost can't stop the bleeding if the damage has still not reached the hp limit?
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That's not just thematically dissonant. It's also dissonant mechanic-wise. You want me to end a condition that makes me lose stamina with a mechanic that restores HP.
The condition also do not mention the possibility to end the condition with stamina recovery through skills. Just HP recovery.
IT's arbitrary and it's not consistent.
IT was consistent in PAthfinder, with one single HP pool, noone gave a flying bulette about what the bleed was actually doing.
Now there's two pools, one less severe than the other and this condition is just messed up in targets and gameplay.
My suggestion:
"Bleeding reflects the effort to patch up a wound that is open and oozing blood. Until the wound is sealed the character loses Stamina to reflect the effort in keeping the wound sealed from bleeding. When Stamina is depleted, the wound is actually bleeding profusely. It is necessary to heal an amount of HP equal to the bleed damage to seal the wound. A DC 15 medicine check as a standard action stops the bleeding if the target character still has at least 1 point in her stamina pool. If the target character has no stamina left, the DC increases to 15+ the damage she is suffering"
Make it riskier. Bleeding is serious stuff.
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Seems you think I'm a newbie. I'm not. I'm fully aware of almost all inconsistencies, I found several corner case. So don't bother about that. Really. I appreciate your...
Seriously, we need to stop thinking about this as though it makes some sort of real life sense. Its a game mechanic.Sorry, never thought about it like something that make real life sense. Exactly because it's a mechanic I see a bit of inconsistence.
also, just to be clear, you stop the bleed condition with an ability that CAN restore HP.Nope. The percise wording is "through the application of any ability that restores Hit Points", not "that CAN restore hp". If you want to point out the single word, please stay on the text.
- this is similar to PF and, correct me if I am wrong, but when used in this way the ability ONLY stops the bleeding and does not cure any HPs.In pf a cure stop the bleeding AND cures pf. Exactly as mystic cure do when the bleeding reach (one way or another) the hp limit. You can't ocmpare Pf, though, because a bleed damage is always a damage cured by cure spells (there's some ability that deal ability score bleed, but those are exceptions.)
Last, they used the term "bleeding" for the condition b/c its a recognized condition and easy enough to understand.Then they also applied a similar system proven to work in PF, that of the cure spell stopping bleeding. - they simply did not bother to address the fact the SPs dont really rep bleeding very well THEMATICALLY.But they always specify, in SF, if the cure is on the stamina or the hp. Always. And in pf a cure cures all. In SF it cures only hp, never stamina.
give up on the "this seems inconsistent" angle or you'll go nuts.Thanks for the advice. Anyway I'll give up when I'll get an official answer. I'll not go nut, really.
This won't be the only one in SF, and I can't even begin to tell you how many exist in PF, let alone any number of other systems.
Eh, I am not sure why I went to so much text. The main point was that I think the intent of the rule wasn't thought through far enough to be that explicit and used the basic mechanics of the PF system rules.
and well, I did say "correct me if I am wrong."
anyway, good luck to ya.
You call that consistent?
Yes. Incoming damage is just damage, not 'stamina loss.' It does not matter what pool you're marking off. Real healing or first aid cures a bleed, nothing else- there is a reason I'm saying rules consistency, and nothing more.
An envoy telling you 'Cheerio, stiff upper lip, pip, pip' not curing bleed? Completely OK with that.
Stamina is a convenient mechanic to keep in the party recharged and going again rather than retreating to a closet for 8 hours. Nothing more.
My suggestion:"Bleeding reflects the effort to patch up a wound that is open and oozing blood. Until the wound is sealed the character loses Stamina to reflect the effort in keeping the wound sealed from bleeding. When Stamina is depleted, the wound is actually bleeding profusely. It is necessary to heal an amount of HP equal to the bleed damage to seal the wound. A DC 15 medicine check as a standard action stops the bleeding if the target character still has at least 1 point in her stamina pool. If the target character has no stamina left, the DC increases to 15+ the damage she is suffering"
Make it riskier. Bleeding is serious stuff.
I'd erase the "heal hp equal to bleed damage" thing. An unlucky roll can make your cure ineffective. I think it's serious enough even "just" bypassing hp.
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FYI, FAQ is now enabled :3
I don't see the confusion here but if the FAQ helps people then that's cool :).
Bleed damage taking out Stamina before taking out HP doesn't seem thematically inconsistent to me. There's plenty of fantasy out there where the hero gets slashed and is losing blood but shurgs off the pain and blood loss as "Just a flesh wound" and proceeds to do some awesome murder hoboing and is perfect by the next fight scene even though she was losing blood. If the same hero gets slashed a LOT from a bunch of different directions/enemies then she's in trouble. The SP/HP mechanic gets at this just fine no matter what type of damage you're talking about.
SP just means damage you can easily recover from while HP means damage that takes longer to recover from and there's no reason to think that Bleed damage can't be of either kind. Otherwise it'd take 8 hours of sleep to recover from a paper cut!
And how to recover from it doesn't seem confusing either. Anything that can restore the hard to recover from HP damage will not only restore that HP but also stop any bleed. Either that or a DC15 medical check to slap on a band aid on that paper cut.