Trying to understand crafting

[Jaçinto]

Okay, granted I skimmed a few times but this is odd to me. I am trying to find the reason to craft, at all, aside from arbitrary availability in store. If the price is the same, rather than craft at half price since you are not paying market value, and you sell for only 10% of the value then why do it at all? If it is the same as you would get in stores, what is the point in ever crafting stuff yourself?

[BretI]

It is more durable and faster to repair. See the last paragraph of pg. 235.

[Milo v3]

Also if the stores don't have x, you can still craft x. It just wont give you any benefit WBL-wise.

[Wikrin]

I assume, given the tropes of the genre, that you are not going to have incredibly consistent access to stores. Varies from one campaign to the next, but still, I expect folks will spend a lot of time either on their ship or on new/unexplored/sparsely populated worlds.

[Jaçinto]

Don't know if I will ever get a chance to play, but I was thinking Mechanic, cause it looked fun to be the guy that makes things. I am still trying to understand why making something yourself costs the same as buying the item. Doesn't that imply that stores are selling things at cost, and thus, are not making any profit at all?

[Belafon]

Jaçinto wrote:

Don't know if I will ever get a chance to play, but I was thinking Mechanic, cause it looked fun to be the guy that makes things. I am still trying to understand why making something yourself costs the same as buying the item. Doesn't that imply that stores are selling things at cost, and thus, are not making any profit at all?

Either that or that everything you find in a store is secondhand (or third, or more).

I think the intention is to have a setting where crafting is actually really easy for most people. The tools in a workshop are smart enough to do most of the work so anyone with a little bit of skill can make what they need.

[Jaçinto]

Sure I can somewhat see that, but when you have someone skilled like the mechanic, how does that work? I understand they don't want player to be able to make money, but at the same time, that gets kinda strange. Wouldn't tailor made gear be worth more since it isn't mass produced? The difference between getting clothes at walmart and going to a tailor. You may do less business, but it is worth more plus it is custom made. Should at least cost less to produce the item since you aren't paying for labour and the store's overhead.

[technarken]

Major corporations manufacturing weaponry and similar equipment probably have access to cheaper component materials because of the sheer bulk they deal with. Other professionals are probably more efficient, and thus the cost difference is their profit margin. In the far flung future capitalism has driven the profit margin down from the absurd 16%, 50%, or even 66% of Old World mercantile ways to more competetive 6-8%.

[Jaçinto]

So, lets see if my failure of a brain is getting this right.

Big corps cheap out on materials, but they sell a brand. Kinda like Apple. You pay for the brand.

An individual could make much better quality, but it eats better materials, so they would come out to the same price.

You are not a store. Probably no permit to sell, or whatever, so you can't do better than a measly 10% of what you made, so you will never be able to get any actual profit and the only way to really acquire wealth, since you sell any product you make at 10% regardless of quality (for reasons), would be through crime or private wet work contracts or be a head in one of these corps. That about right? Sorta shadowrun?

[Myrryr]

Jaçinto wrote:

So, lets see if my failure of a brain is getting this right.

Big corps cheap out on materials, but they sell a brand. Kinda like Apple. You pay for the brand.

An individual could make much better quality, but it eats better materials, so they would come out to the same price.

You are not a store. Probably no permit to sell, or whatever, so you can't do better than a measly 10% of what you made, so you will never be able to get any actual profit and the only way to really acquire wealth, since you sell any product you make at 10% regardless of quality (for reasons), would be through crime or private wet work contracts or be a head in one of these corps. That about right? Sorta shadowrun?

Don't forget, there is no way RAW to overcome that and get a permit or w/e, so if you get the deed to a weapons shop, all of those weapons are now instantly 10% of their value. Because they're not 'trade goods'. But buy a lemonade stand? Hey, you can sell lemonade for probably more than those high tech guns!

[Jaçinto]

These are reasons why I wish the game was in open beta instead of a closed invite only one.

[Voss]

Jaçinto wrote:

So, lets see if my failure of a brain is getting this right.

Big corps cheap out on materials, but they sell a brand. Kinda like Apple. You pay for the brand.

An individual could make much better quality, but it eats better materials, so they would come out to the same price.

You are not a store. Probably no permit to sell, or whatever, so you can't do better than a measly 10% of what you made, so you will never be able to get any actual profit and the only way to really acquire wealth, since you sell any product you make at 10% regardless of quality (for reasons), would be through crime or private wet work contracts or be a head in one of these corps. That about right? Sorta shadowrun?

No, not really. The corp thing isn't really necessary. Unless a big piece is missing, mom & pop corner stores can make and sell for full price. This seems to be largely a PC-oriented But Thou Must(n't)! issue.

Which is a shame, because it pretty much torpedos smuggler or trader games.

There are quite a few areas that the game butts in on, without any solid reason to do so, and a lot of it seems like a product of an item level driven economy. In addition to the silly effects of same. (Welcome, soldiers, to Murnax VII: the front line against the bugs. We could issue you weapons that kill them quickly and efficiently, but you're new, so good luck chewing through that wall of meat with glorified flashlights) And then there is the price scaling and 'must be X tall to buy.' It's quite a potent combination of silly restrictions to kick genre conventions in the naughty bits.

Remember all those times space characters bought even-more-powerful guns every season or sequel? No? Yeah. Or inheriting a parent's laser sword in a scene designed to deepen the connection between characters? Yeah, you'll be tossing that in the bin after a couple levels.

[Myrryr]

Voss wrote:

Or inheriting a parent's laser sword in a scene designed to deepen the connection between characters? Yeah, you'll be tossing that in the bin after a couple levels.

Or you hear a voice booming from the heavens "Hey wait that's too powerful, you can't have it," as it disappears from your dad's hand because it's ilvl 15 and you're lvl 1.

[Naxek]

Myrryr wrote:

Voss wrote:

Or inheriting a parent's laser sword in a scene designed to deepen the connection between characters? Yeah, you'll be tossing that in the bin after a couple levels.

Or you hear a voice booming from the heavens "Hey wait that's too powerful, you can't have it," as it disappears from your dad's hand because it's ilvl 15 and you're lvl 1.

Could always do something like, you upgrade your old weapon (within the same class) to the damage of this new one, for the appropriate credits price. And if this weapon is special for any reason it retains that while gaining the new stats.

Probably not a perfect example but just thinking that there's probably a way to deal with most outlying scenarios. Of course, I guess that requires being willing to be creative and occasionally bend the rules.

EDIT: Was trying to reply to Voss' comment above. x.x

[Jaçinto]

Starting to stink of D&D 4th edition with the item bonus rule. Where if you are level 2, you are not allowed to have items with a total bonus greater than +2. I'm sorry Paizo and the specially selected beta testers, but you screwed up. Don't do non-nonsensical "BECAUSE!" rules for things a character is or is not allowed to own or use if you are not going to explain it in a way that makes sense in the game. This is not a video game. I see this being house ruled like mad. Remember people, the better the game, the less house rules are required to make it good.

[Andy Brown]

You're allowed to have gear of a higher level, it's just that you're limited on what you can normally buy.
The level limit is also a guide to the GM of what they should probably be putting in loot.

This was all mentioned when the gear levels was first discussed.

[Jaçinto]

Alright then. I still see a fair bit of house ruling happening. It kinda feels like they are trying to put PFS/SFS arbitrary rules in the core game.

[EC Gamer Guy]

Economy of scale. Try making the parts to a car and assembling it yourself, it'll cost more than just buying the car. Make 100,000 cars and the costs of the individual parts go down.

Easier example is soda. Buy 1 can it's $1, buy 12 it's $4.

Jaçinto wrote:

Don't know if I will ever get a chance to play, but I was thinking Mechanic, cause it looked fun to be the guy that makes things. I am still trying to understand why making something yourself costs the same as buying the item. Doesn't that imply that stores are selling things at cost, and thus, are not making any profit at all?

[Seisho]

What EC says - plus: if you craft yourself the items are more durable, taht is at least one point where the companies save some money
I mean, they could of course craft them more drable but they had to sell them more expensive too right? (not really but well...)

[Zombie Lord]

Make up whatever flavor text floats your boat. The cost to craft equaling market value is just for game balance.

If you feel your behind the WBL power curve, and you have a stash of goods, you can use that as flavor text for making profession or craft checks to "Earn a Living".

For earning a salary, it doesn't matter if your basket weaving, buying and selling second hand gear, recylcling-scavenging, or babysitting.

Just don't be surprised if adventure hunts you down when the market value of all your gear plus the salary you earned puts you in the WBL bracket for the next character level.

[ghostunderasheet]

Landed on the most advanced world in the verse only has tech three items to sell. Lands on primative stone age planet has tech twelve items available.