How does it work? Last session a party member wanted to hand a scroll to another party-member during combat.
Are there rules for how this is done? If not, what are your takes on it? What actions are used, or not used, in handing an item from person to person?
-Nearyn
Move action to get out the item, assuming it is accessible standard if not, move action to take the item from the other player.
I don't believe there are any rules for it, but Hogeyhead's way is how I run it: a move action on both ends, and taking an item from an ally holding it out for you doesn't provoke.
This just came up in another game, and this is the only thread I've found on it.
Hogeyhead's description doesn't cover the case where the character already has the item in hand (e.g., no move action necessary to get it out).
Do both characters have to spend a move action just to pass the item? So it takes my friend a move action to hold the item out and it takes me a move action to get it?
It seems wrong that it requires two move actions to take something my friend is holding out to me, but it only takes one move action for me to dig in my friend's backpack and get the same item. If it's going to take my move action anyway, my friend can just drop the item as a free action and use his move action for something else.
I'm trying to mimic the action of a nurse slapping a tool into a surgeon's hand: the nurse spends her (whatever actions) to directly the place the tool in the surgeon's hand, specifically so the surgeon has his full turn to deal with the patient.
How would you do you that, mechanically?
I'm trying to mimic the action of a nurse slapping a tool into a surgeon's hand: the nurse spends her (whatever actions) to directly the place the tool in the surgeon's hand, specifically so the surgeon has his full turn to deal with the patient.
How would you do you that, mechanically?
To do that specifically, I would have the nurse Aid Another, Healing. Requires a standard action on the person aiding while the other person is doing the skill check.
I also know of no rules for passing an item from character to character, although most GMs I've encountered will just have each character spend one move action for the item passing.
I don't know. A nurse and a surgeon aren't trying to dodge attacks from people trying to kill them while they're passing items. Seems like it ought to be more like passing the baton in a relay, where there's a clear and present danger that the item is dropped. I think I'd make it like casting a spell where it either provokes an AoO or you can attempt it defensively with a chance of the hand-off failing.
I don't know. A nurse and a surgeon aren't trying to dodge attacks from people trying to kill them while they're passing items.
Combat Medics would. In that case, they can't Take 10 when doing it.
Healing skill covers what the character is doing. There are already rules for how to help someone perform their skill check -- Aid Another. There are even rules for trying this while in combat -- you aren't allowed to Take 10.
Seems like a good fit to me.
But what if the thing they're handing is a wand of magic missile rather than one of clw. What would you have them roll then?
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We've always done it where it's either a Move action for the recipient to take it out of the hands of an adjacent giver (who just let's go of it) or a Move action for the giver to put it into the hands of an adjacent recipient (who just shifts his grip onto it).
No idea if it's RAW or even close, but that's what we've always done for simplicity.
By RAW, you can pick up an item from your square or any adjacent square. That assumes the item is unattended and available for you to just grab it at your pleasure. This is a move action that provokes. Mechanically, there is no difference between picking up an item from a table and picking up an item from your ally's open hand. It's the same.
So, as the guy receiving/grabbing the item, it's always a move action that provokes.
As for the guy giving the item, we already have rules for getting items from storage, and none of those rules apply if you begin your turn with the item in your hand. We also have rules for opening your hand (in the FAQ) which is a free action.
So that part is easy too. Free action to open your hand and make the item "unattended" for your ally, plus whatever action or no action you must do first to have the item in your hand.
All of that is pretty clear, I think.
To reverse it is also fairly easy. Dropping an item is a free action (but does not apply to the example of putting an item directly into an ally's hand). So we are actually "Manipulating an item" which is a move action and fully covers the intent to gently put an item down (well, to put an item into storage, but that's a vague enough term to apply whether storage is your own backpack, a nearby chest, a shelf, or an outstretched hand behaving like a shelf). Manipulating an item is a move action.
The awkward part is what the receiver must do. If the two parties are on different initiatives, then the receiver must hold out his hand in round one, then close his hand in round two (a free action). Or he can ready an action to wait for his ally to put the item into his hand as a trigger, then use his readied action with his new item.
In all cases, the act of closing a hand is already covered in the FAQ as a free action.
Note that the timing can be interesting. If a character is holding out a scroll in his open hand for an ally to take, can an enemy use a readied action or even just a normal action if his initiative happens first, to take the item? Is it really "unattended" in an open hand? Is it easier to sunder? If the guy holding it in his open hand gets injured or forceably moved, what happens to the object? Answering these questions might get weird.
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All that said, it's tedious to synchronize readied actions and move actions between characters on different initiative sequences, and weird to think about the awkward timing issues, so I generally handwaive it (no pun intended) to being a free action you can take when it's not your turn (like speaking) to simply extend an item for easy taking by an ally.
So, for me, when the surgeon wants the scalpel, on his turn, the nurse uses a free action (not on her turn) to extend it and the surgeon uses his move action to retrieve it.
But that's not RAW. The RAW is the stuff I said first which is the tedious part.
I think a swift action would be fair if it's something you can put into someones hand easily like a potion or scroll. Something more dangerous like a weapon would certainly merit a move action however.
Keep in mind this is only for the player getting the item from another player and does not take into account the passers necessary action of pulling out the item from a backpack and such.
I think a swift action would be fair if it's something you can put into someones hand easily like a potion or scroll. Something more dangerous like a weapon would certainly merit a move action however.
Can you support that with RAW? It's unclear whether you're trying to interpret the rules or suggesting a house rule. In any case, RAW doesn't support using a swift action for this sort of thing. It's not a bad idea for a house rule though.
It should require 2 move action is the item needs to be retrieved, or 1 if the item is in hand.
The 1 can either be the possessor placing the object in the receivers hand, or the other character taking it out of a willing characters hand.
The move action to get it out of storage is simply that.
It's right here.
Who are you answering? Me?
It looks like you're responding to when I asked another poster to support using a swift action for this, but if you are, your response doesn't justify using a swift action at all.
I never disputed the Manipulate an Item action; I believe I mentioned it in my post immediately before your first post.
So is there any reason I can't use the "manipulate an item" action to physically put the item in my partner's hand?
Assuming my partner is adjacent to me and has a free hand, can I take my move action, provoke an AoO, and put the item in my partner's hand?
My goal is to spend as many actions as I have to so that my partner can take his full round actions with the item already in his hand.
I'm afraid that's something you're going to have to clear with your GM(s). There just isn't an explicit rule about it in Pathfinder.
Sounds fine. An (unnecessarily) stringent reading might be that it drops in their square, or that you have to use the action to stow it in their pack/pouch, but that seems just weird.
The best ruling seems to be either the giver uses an action to put an object into a willing receiver's hand using the manipulate object action, or a taker takes an object from a willing giver's hand using the same.
If the scroll was already in PC 1's hand, I'd do it as a swift action, just to hand it off to PC 2. But that's just me.
(snip) Note that the timing can be interesting. If a character is holding out a scroll in his open hand for an ally to take, can an enemy use a readied action or even just a normal action if his initiative happens first, to take the item? Is it really "unattended" in an open hand? Is it easier to sunder? If the guy holding it in his open hand gets injured or forceably moved, what happens to the object? Answering these questions might get weird.
That's the fun of this forum. Hm.
Mucking up handoffs is of course possible. I'd say if you have an enemy in range, it may use its AoO to intercept the handoff somehow. If it's armed, sunder or disarm without provoking its own AoO. If barehanded, same, but if it succeeds on disarm it gets the thing.
As far as the handoff? Let's say Cutler wants to hand over a greatsword +2 to Forte, since his last attempt to throw a weapon over to his friend Jeffery didn't go so well. (Yes, the names are intentional.)
Ideally, Forte would, on his turn, READY an action: 'Take sword from Cutler'. On his turn, Cutler uses a move action to hand the sword off. Forte now has the sword and on his turn can charge or whatever else he wants to do.
But let's say that Forte wasn't expecting it. He's taken his turn, and Cutler just ran up on one move and on his second shoved a hilt at him. In that case? Move action to 'pick up' the sword, and standard action left over.
And yes, in both cases, if enemy Matthews is nearby to threaten either Cutler or Forte, he can start trying to sunder or disarm to get in the middle of it as an attack of opportunity.
So the "readying an action to take" action seems more like a relay race baton handoff. Those get messed up on a fairly high percentage (for my purposes).
I'm aiming for something a lot cleaner, with a small a chance of messing up and no action taken on the receiver's part. The best example I can think of is nurse handing off to surgeon: it's rarely dropped, the item is in the receiver's hand and ready to go, and the receiver doesn't lose any actions or focus in the process.
I just make it a move for the giver. No reason to overcomplicate or penalize people for trying to help an ally.
From a simple game balance perspective, one person could drop the item as a free action, the other could pick it up as a move action provoking an AoO. Handing something one to the other should *at minimum* be at least as good as that, and probably should be better. In which case, it should probably only take a single move action (by either party) and not provoke an AoO.
I wouldn't worry about readying actions unless someone was throwing an item across the battlefield for someone to catch.
So is there any reason I can't use the "manipulate an item" action to physically put the item in my partner's hand?
Assuming my partner is adjacent to me and has a free hand, can I take my move action, provoke an AoO, and put the item in my partner's hand?
My goal is to spend as many actions as I have to so that my partner can take his full round actions with the item already in his hand.
Technically, no. You can't.
Because your ally's hand isn't just sitting there waiting for an item to be put into his hand - if it is, then he must have readied that action. But if he's in combat, swinging weapons, dodging attacks, casting spells, whatever, doing all the stuff people do in combat, then he's not really making his hand an easy target for your hand-off. (if he is, that orc he's fighting just might hack that hand off at the wrist - a whole different kind of "hand off").
So, a readied action to receive and a move action to deliver, or a readied action to hold it out and a move action to take it, that would be the rules.
But as I said, it's probably easier to ignore this technicality and allow a move action to transfer the item on the turn of of the person making the move action, and it's an out-of-turn free action to complete the hand-off for the ally. It's up to them to decide who is using their move action.
So the "readying an action to take" action seems more like a relay race baton handoff. Those get messed up on a fairly high percentage (for my purposes).
I'm aiming for something a lot cleaner, with a small a chance of messing up and no action taken on the receiver's part. The best example I can think of is nurse handing off to surgeon: it's rarely dropped, the item is in the receiver's hand and ready to go, and the receiver doesn't lose any actions or focus in the process.
I am now very curious about the success rates of relay baton passes that you have in your game :)
From a simple game balance perspective, one person could drop the item as a free action, the other could pick it up as a move action provoking an AoO. Handing something one to the other should *at minimum* be at least as good as that, and probably should be better. In which case, it should probably only take a single move action (by either party) and not provoke an AoO.
I wouldn't worry about readying actions unless someone was throwing an item across the battlefield for someone to catch.
A drop and grab would be simpler too, except there's one part where it's not as sure as a handoff ... if someone else runs through that square first and grabs the shiny. You drop that sword in your square and wander off, there's nothing stopping someone else from heading over and getting a free sword. Especially if they go before the receiver.
I think the move action on the part of the receiver is the best way to handle it, no matter what. Try handing someone a broom and see how much they have to do to take it themselves. That said, you can work the system a little. And a handoff still requires attention and care. I didn't use the name 'Cutler' above at random.