| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hey all! After doing a lot of reading, I think it's well-established that Envoy and Solarian both need some love.
With that in mind, I've come up with a fix for each.
1. New feature - Combat Flourish: Gained at 6th level. Allows, for 2 Resolve Points, to apply Expertise to attacks or saving throws, without using an action at all. Expert Attack is removed from improvisations, of course.
2. New feature - Posthaste: Gained at 10th level. Once per round, you can activate an improvisation that requires a standard action with a move action, or make an improvisation that requires a move action activated with no action at all.
Combat Flourish is there to grant a little bit more combat oomph early on.
Posthaste allows the class to transition better to late game – allowing them to, for example, use two standard action improvisations together, or using two move action improvs and a standard, or mixing them up with attacks more seamlessly.
1. Changed feature - Solar Manifestation: You get BOTH the armor and the weapon. Can be manifested simultaneously.
2. Changed feature - Solar Weapon: Changed scaling. Now grants an additional dice at 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter. At 6th level and every 5 levels thereafter, dice increases by 1 size. So you end up with 7d12 rather than 12d6.
3. New feature - Stellar Orbit: Gained at 1st level, allows you to pick two sets of bonuses for Stellar Mode. You can pick between having +damage on Photon and +Fort on Graviton (Colliding Orbit)... or you can pick having +movement speed on Photon and +Reflex on Graviton (Escape Orbit).
The armor and the weapon now make Solarians have better damage and AC to compensate for the fact they won't likely focus on CON or DEX, and carves their niche in combat as a resilient melee combatant.
Increasing the Solar Weapon scaling a bit to 7d12 allows it to outdamage a dimensional slice longsword as long as you have a level 20 solar crystal.
The difference isn't bit at all (around 1 damage more), but the Solar Weapon is free and can't be destroyed.
Stellar Orbit provides a differentiation between Solarians that's mild but noticeable. Colliding Orbits are better in the fray, while Escape Orbits are better for skirmishing.
| 13 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's been claimed a couple times, but I wouldn't call that 'well-established'. Especially since few of the claims show any, much less all, of the math behind them and lack context.
Applying 'fixes' on day -10 seems... premature.
It's been claimed a couple times, but I wouldn't call that 'well-established'. Especially since few of the claims show any, much less all, of the math behind them and lack context.
Applying 'fixes' on day -10 seems... premature.
Mathwise, Solar Weapons deal less damage than an equivalent 20th level weapon, even tricked out with a 20th level Solar crystal.
Envoys just do less than any other class, I think Action Economy is their enemy.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A 20th level dimensional slice longsword does 14d8, or an average of 63 points of damage with no critical effect
A 20th level Solarion with a 20th level crystal does 18d6, or an average of 63 with a choice of four different critical effects.
They are functionally identical, with the solarion edging out the longsword because it has critical effects and can't be disarmed or destroyed.
Mathwise, Solar Weapons deal less damage than an equivalent 20th level weapon, even tricked out with a 20th level Solar crystal.It's been claimed a couple times, but I wouldn't call that 'well-established'. Especially since few of the claims show any, much less all, of the math behind them and lack context.
Applying 'fixes' on day -10 seems... premature.
Hmm. There seems to be some dispute about that.
Also... 20th level. That's at least 8 levels too late for me to care.
Envoys just do less than any other class, I think Action Economy is their enemy.
Well, 'just do less' is certainly ironclad. I have no context for how setting resolve points on fire fixes that.
It still seems to be too early to be tossing fixes into the void.
A 20th level dimensional slice longsword does 14d8, or an average of 63 points of damage with no critical effect
A 20th level Solarion with a 20th level crystal does 18d6, or an average of 63 with a choice of four different critical effects.They are functionally identical, with the solarion edging out the longsword because it has critical effects and can't be disarmed or destroyed.
Not much of a class feature, is it? 7d12+6d6 puts it +3.5 damage ahead, and makes the scaling normalized. I think it makes it more of a feature that matters.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
One area I'd like to see improved is the Black Hole of the Graviton side. It yanks people in but doesn't really do much to keep them from just walking back out/guarded step + shoot away and it's not huge in size.
I'd add 'Characters moved with the black hole are caught in it's event horizon and cannot move further away from the Solarian until the end of the Solarian's next turn. At 10th and 20th level, the Event Horizon lasts an additional turn'.
So now the Black Hole actually KEEPS people close and a level 20 Solarian is nearly impossible to get away from.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
1. Changed feature - Solar Manifestation: You get BOTH the armor and the weapon. Can be manifested simultaneously.
2. Changed feature - Solar Weapon: Changed scaling. Now grants an additional dice at 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter. At 6th level and every 5 levels thereafter, dice increases by 1 size. So you end up with 7d12 rather than 12d6.
1. Changed feature - Solar Manifestation: You get BOTH the armor and the weapon. Can be manifested simultaneously.
Agree - It's only an additional +1AC and I just don't see it scaling well.
2. Changed feature - Solar Weapon: Changed scaling. Now grants an additional dice at 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter. At 6th level and every 5 levels thereafter, dice increases by 1 size. So you end up with 7d12 rather than 12d6.
Don't Agree - Comparing it to the other weapons it seems fine. Plus looking at the powers you get I can see why the Solar Weapon is limited.
Switching your 3 for something I thought about.
I am not a fan of the Solarians Stellar mode. I think they were headed in the right direction but I feel it is limited when looking at other classes *Cough* Operative *Cough*.
3. Changed feature - Stellar Mode You can use Revelations out of combat. Jedi's don't have to be in combat to use the force. Monks did not need to be in combat to be Monk like. With some of the Solarian powers being geared towards utility I am not sure why they went this route. I would love to get their perspective on it though. Here is how I see it. You spend one minute focusing and becoming attuned you can revelations.
Flare, Stealth Warp, and Astrologic Sense are perfect examples of skills you would want to use out of combat.
4. Changed feature - Number of Revelations
At lvls 4, 8, 12, 16, 20 you gain an additional revelation of your choice. Only Not a fan of only choosing 10 out of the 21 powers when a few seem like they would never be picked over the others. Limiting how many you get will make you always pick some over others.
At level 16 you also gain both
Ultimate Graviton
Ultimate Photon
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
3. Changed feature - Stellar Mode You can use Revelations out of combat. Jedi's don't have to be in combat to use the force. Monks did not need to be in combat to be Monk like. With some of the Solarian powers being geared towards utility I am not sure why they went this route. I would love to get their perspective on it though. Here is how I see it. You spend one minute focusing and becoming attuned you can revelations.
Flare, Stealth Warp, and Astrologic Sense are perfect examples of skills you would want to use out of combat.
But you can use them outside of combat. Almost all of the time they don't last longer than a round but you can use them.
You can use stellar revelations both in and out of combat, but since you can’t enter a stellar mode outside of battle, any revelation that lasts for 1 round or as long as you’re in a stellar mode lasts only 1 round if you’re not in combat.
3. Changed feature - Stellar Mode You can use Revelations out of combat. Jedi's don't have to be in combat to use the force. Monks did not need to be in combat to be Monk like. With some of the Solarian powers being geared towards utility I am not sure why they went this route. I would love to get their perspective on it though. Here is how I see it. You spend one minute focusing and becoming attuned you can revelations.
Flare, Stealth Warp, and Astrologic Sense are perfect examples of skills you would want to use out of combat.
But you can use them outside of combat. Almost all of the time they don't last longer than a round but you can use them.
You can use stellar revelations both in and out of combat, but since you can’t enter a stellar mode outside of battle, any revelation that lasts for 1 round or as long as you’re in a stellar mode lasts only 1 round if you’re not in combat.
I knew I had to be missing something. I think I read that but it didn't click. Still keeping number 4 though. Thanks
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So one of the issues with these fixes (particularly the envoy's) is that you're operating under the assumption that all of the classes should deal equal damage in Starfinder, which is clearly not the case.
Particularly with the envoy, the point of the class is clearly to buff allies and debuff enemies; they're bards, not rogues. An envoy is likely going to be spending most of her time granting additional actions to allies, healing Stamina point damage (currently they're the only class in the game that can do this), or performing sick feints and giving the benefits to allies. When you're shooting, its probably because you can't do something better. It's like a wizard pulling out his crossbow and shooting, or a bard attacking with a shortbow once all his buffs are up.
As for the solarian, I'm only glancing over my copy quickly (I've got a PF game I'm running this evening and need to get back to prep), but it looks to me like you're missing an important piece of the solarian puzzle—weapon crystals. They're these awesome little do-dads that you hold in your hand, lightsaber style, and when you manifest your solar weapon, you add extra damage to it plus a cool critical effect. Solarian damage is competitive, but they tend to fall behind soldiers ever so slightly because their stellar revelations are insane in combat. (Every time I played with a solarian, they had an unmistakable tide-turning battle presence because of the level of command they had over the battlefield, from pulling enemies towards themselves to burning foes with their solar shield. The solarian is an insanely strong class when played well.)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's been claimed a couple times, but I wouldn't call that 'well-established'. Especially since few of the claims show any, much less all, of the math behind them and lack context.
Applying 'fixes' on day -10 seems... premature.
Mathwise, Solar Weapons deal less damage than an equivalent 20th level weapon, even tricked out with a 20th level Solar crystal.
Envoys just do less than any other class, I think Action Economy is their enemy.
I think action economy is everyone's enemy. I think there is a lot of math and ideas based on pathfinder math and comparisons.....while the games are inherently grounded in the same foundation and Starfinder is really built upon pathfinder, Starfinder to me based on what I have seen through reading over things several times is that the math is just going to be different. There are less variety in available actions and less options to swap actions. There are far less swift actions available with existing classes. I think that the same seems true of the small handful of monsters we have seen.
Giving the Envoy an extra standard action or turning move actions into non actions seems like it would do less to balance and more to make the Envoy an unintended powerhouse. On a direct comparison, most of the Starfinder classes don't stack up but when only considered in their context, things don't seem so out of whack.
The solarian is only a few dice off of equivalent damage dealing options at 20th level but they get a number of utility options and status effect dealing abilities to "compensate". While "dead" is still the most effective thing to do to an enemy, status effects may be more a more viable option in Starfinder then it was in pathfinder (of course minus the few status effects in pathfinder that are obviously powerful)
Hey all! After doing a lot of reading, I think it's well-established that Envoy and Solarian both need some love.
With that in mind, I've come up with a fix for each.
1. New feature - Combat Flourish: Gained at 6th level. Allows, for 2 Resolve Points, to apply Expertise to attacks or saving throws, without using an action at all. Expert Attack is removed from improvisations, of course.
Given the very few ways to get a bonus to hit, I'm not sure Expert Attack actually needs such a buff. There is no other class ability that adds on average about 3.5 + level/4 to hit. Given the factor of 2 people throw around comparing Pathfinder to Starfinder, thats like +7+level/2 to hit in pathfinder. A bonus like that generally makes you miss only on a natural 1. And you can still use the various Improved Improvisations to take a standard action to attack and provide a buff to everyone on your team.
For example, at 8th level when you can take Expert attack, you can have Improved Get 'Em. You're looking at +6 (BAB) + 1d6+1 (Expertise) +2 (Get 'Em) = +12.5 average. Compared it to a same level soldier who has a +8 (BAB) +1 (Gear boost) = +9. All other bonuses are not class dependent and so can be taken by either character.
2. New feature - Posthaste: Gained at 10th level. Once per round, you can activate an improvisation that requires a standard action with a move action, or make an improvisation that requires a move action activated with no action at all.Posthaste allows the class to transition better to late game – allowing them to, for example, use two standard action improvisations together, or using two move action improvs and a standard, or mixing them up with attacks more seamlessly.
But the Improved improvisations already do that. Its already built in to the class so you can combine an attack with a buff as a single standard action, and then still do a move action buff.
If you add this on top of those Improved improvisations, you're proposing to allow the Envoy to make two attacks a round at no penalty (no -4), plus providing two different buffs. As opposed to the current one attack, and two buffs. Why play a soldier in that case?
1. Changed feature - Solar Manifestation: You get BOTH the armor and the weapon. Can be manifested simultaneously.
I don't feel strongly about this either way. Having only 1 or both isn't going to make or break the class I feel. Many Solarians are going to grab heavy armor proficiency anyways, making having both the same as having only one. Similarly, some builds will grab long arm or sniper proficiency/specialization, and not use the Solar Weapon much. There are a surprising number of abilities that can work for a Dex based ranged striker Solarian. Consider the 9th level possibilities of Ray of light + Jet Pack + Hover + Sniper Rifle in the right terrains.
The real benefits of the weapon are you can't lose it, can't have it sundered, don't have to worry about batteries at all (credits or bulk), and can go a few extra levels without upgrading the crystal and stay competitive. Its raw damage output is not the benefit. And it doesn't need to be as not every class feature needs to increase raw damage output.
2. Changed feature - Solar Weapon: Changed scaling. Now grants an additional dice at 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter. At 6th level and every 5 levels thereafter, dice increases by 1 size. So you end up with 7d12 rather than 12d6.
Changing the Solar weapon damage curve is going to make Solarians deal significantly more damage in the mid-levels. Like 50% more than a soldier.
At 7th, your proposal does 3d8 (avg 12.5) in melee just from the weapon, no crystal. Compared to 1d12 (6.5) or 2d8 (9) for advanced melee weapons, 1-handed and 2-handed. Thats a significant chunk of change saved for better performance. If you drop the credits on a crystal, you're talking about 50% more damage once specialization is considered (3d8+1d4 = 16 average, +7 for level).
3. New feature - Stellar Orbit: Gained at 1st level, allows you to pick two sets of bonuses for Stellar Mode. You can pick between having +damage on Photon and +Fort on Graviton (Colliding Orbit)... or you can pick having +movement speed on Photon and +Reflex on Graviton (Escape Orbit).The armor and the weapon now make Solarians have better damage and AC to compensate for the fact they won't likely focus on CON or DEX, and carves their niche in combat as a resilient melee combatant.
I'm not sure the class needs this extra feature. To be honest, I'd like to get some play time in before declaring the relative power levels of the various classes in and outside of combat. However, I'll point out that Solarians can totally increase Str, Con, Dex, and Cha, since you pick 4 stats every 5 levels. Similarly you wind up having to spread stat enhancements over 3 stats.
Starting with 18 Str, 10 Dex, 10 Con, 14 Cha can get you to 28 Str, 20 Dex, 18 Con 24 Cha by level 20. Heavy Armor with 20 Dex is enough to max out AC at end game. Even by 10th level everything is starting to even out in terms of AC.
In summary, I'm not convinced by the discussions so far that the Envoy and Solarian are so hopeless that major changes are needed. The true test is actual play. If everyone feels like they are contributing significantly and that the party can overcome the obstacles thrown in its way, then the balance is good enough.
Particularly with the envoy, the point of the class is clearly to buff allies and debuff enemies; they're bards, not rogues. An envoy is likely going to be spending most of her time granting additional actions to allies, healing Stamina point damage (currently they're the only class in the game that can do this), or performing sick feints and giving the benefits to allies. When you're shooting, its probably because you can't do something better. It's like a wizard pulling out his crossbow and shooting, or a bard attacking with a shortbow once all his buffs are up.
I agree with all this!
Solarian damage is competitive, but they tend to fall behind soldiers ever so slightly because their stellar revelations are insane in combat. (Every time I played with a solarian, they had an unmistakable tide-turning battle presence because of the level of command they had over the battlefield, from pulling enemies towards themselves to burning foes with their solar shield. The solarian is an insanely strong class when played well.)
Yeah, but the problem is that solarians don't have to use solar weapon. They're proficient with advanced melee weapons, too, and can just use them instead.
I think the main culprit is that solar weapon and weapon crystals seem to have been balanced against weapons with an item level equal to the solarian's. But most characters are probably going to be using weapons at a level ahead of theirs (or even two, if they don't mind blowing half their WBL on one item), and on this assumption solar weapon tends to lag behind after 10th level, when weapon damage growth starts accelerating. This isn't a big deal, but it's annoying that solarians have this cool and distinctive feature that usually isn't worth using in practice.
I'm betting this'll be fixed in later splatbooks, when better weapon crystals get added or when solar weapon gets feat support. Until then, though, I don't think some minor house-ruled buffs would be out of line.
1. Changed feature - Solar Manifestation: You get BOTH the armor and the weapon. Can be manifested simultaneously.
2. Changed feature - Solar Weapon: Changed scaling. Now grants an additional dice at 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter. At 6th level and every 5 levels thereafter, dice increases by 1 size. So you end up with 7d12 rather than 12d6.
3. New feature - Stellar Orbit: Gained at 1st level, allows you to pick two sets of bonuses for Stellar Mode. You can pick between having +damage on Photon and +Fort on Graviton (Colliding Orbit)... or you can pick having +movement speed on Photon and +Reflex on Graviton (Escape Orbit).
Like others, I think this goes a bit too far. Solar armor looks bad if you assume solarians need to make Cha their best or second-best stat (and hence can't focus on Dex). But this isn't true. Photon-based melee tanks don't really care about save DC, and can get by just fine prioritizing Dex over Cha; for them, solar armor is great!
I agree that solar weapon needs a bit of a boost, though, for the reason I gave in reply to Alex. How about:
- At 5th level, solarians with the solar weapon manifestation gain the benefit of Weapon Focus with their solar weapon. If they already have Weapon Focus (advanced melee weapons), they can choose to retrain it.
- A solar weapon's damage increases to 4d6 at 11th level, not 12th; it continues to further increase by 1d6 at 12th level and every level thereafter, as normal.
The first change doesn't make solar weapon numerically more powerful (since you'd be taking Weapon Focus anyway), but it does give the character a reason to use it over other options, and takes care of the dead level. The second change balances it against buying weapons at a level above yours, which imo should be assumed in this case.
(I'm also toying with a more radical change, in a post of its own.)
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Man, I really hate threads like this because I haven't even gotten my rule book for Starfinder yet, and people are already saying "Hey this is broken, let's change it!"
I think it might be a bit better to wait, play test it for a while, let a lot more people look at the abilities and come to terms with it. And maybe not start a thread so early.
I'm sure there will be things that need to be fixed, but I can't even begin to know what that is since I haven't even seen the rules.
Maybe if Graviton mode gave a +1 to AC instead of Reflex there wouldn't be a want to have both weapon and armor?
Being in Photon mode and using Plasma Sheath you are already getting a damage boost. Say you get it at lvl 2 you are getting a 1d6+str+2. That's at least 3+Str at lvl 2. Not bad in my opinion.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Every time I played with a solarian, they had an unmistakable tide-turning battle presence because of the level of command they had over the battlefield, from pulling enemies towards themselves to burning foes with their solar shield. The solarian is an insanely strong class when played well.
Ah yes, the insanely powerful 'spend a standard action to move a foe, who you could reach with a move action anyway, some of the distance towards you, provided they don't save' and 'do a small amount of damage to people who attack you, so long as they're attacking you in melee (but not with a reach weapon!) in a setting with more ranged weapons than melee'.
#gamechangers
Every time I played with a solarian, they had an unmistakable tide-turning battle presence because of the level of command they had over the battlefield, from pulling enemies towards themselves to burning foes with their solar shield. The solarian is an insanely strong class when played well.Ah yes, the insanely powerful 'spend a standard action to move a foe, who you could reach with a move action anyway, some of the distance towards you, provided they don't save' and 'do a small amount of damage to people who attack you, so long as they're attacking you in melee (but not with a reach weapon!) in a setting with more ranged weapons than melee'.
#gamechangers
Ikiry0 said this earlier:
"One area I'd like to see improved is the Black Hole of the Graviton side. It yanks people in but doesn't really do much to keep them from just walking back out/guarded step + shoot away and it's not huge in size.
I'd add 'Characters moved with the black hole are caught in it's event horizon and cannot move further away from the Solarian until the end of the Solarian's next turn. At 10th and 20th level, the Event Horizon lasts an additional turn'.
So now the Black Hole actually KEEPS people close and a level 20 Solarian is nearly impossible to get away from."
I like it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Even then, it's still not 'great battlefield control', and I can't imagine there are going to be many situations where you're not just better off moving to them and hitting them than giving up your standard to move them towards you. You need to be 14th level before the range is greater than 30', and even then it'll only pull them 20' towards you.
It's a very, very niche gimmick with too high an opportunity cost.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Even then, it's still not 'great battlefield control', and I can't imagine there are going to be many situations where you're not just better off moving to them and hitting them than giving up your standard to move them towards you. You need to be 14th level before the range is greater than 30', and even then it'll only pull them 20' towards you.
It's a very, very niche gimmick with too high an opportunity cost.
If you are a solo combatant, sure.
But, most people have a party they are playing with. If moving someone closer to you can save your allies their move actions, you can bring a lot more value than making a single attack.
Starfinder is a lot more tactical, and it is difficult to gauge situational advantages. In theory, you'll play to set up those situations more often than not.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's still overstating its utility.
Once every 4 rounds you can move a thing an amount that is in all likelihood quite a bit less than it can move.
IF the badguy has gotten between you and your party mate...
IF the badguy is going to act before your party mate...
IF it's a melee badguy...
IF it's more interested in fighting your party mate than you, despite you being so close (very short range, don't forget - but then after 3 rounds of graviton attunement with them still approaching your team you're not going to be seen as much of a threat)...
MAYBE (keep in mind the sort of badguy who is going to want to get in your party's face to make melee full attacks is likely to have a good Fort save) you can stop a teammate eating a full attack (when we've been told that a full attack isn't often going to be the best idea anyway), taking only the single instead.
#TacticalExcellence
That's still overstating its utility.
Once every 4 rounds you can move a thing an amount that is in all likelihood quite a bit less than it can move.#TacticalExcellence
Maybe instead of taking a dump on abilities you can bring something to the table? What is it that you want the ability to do?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Pulling a creature out of Cover, or pulling them behind your Cover so you can attack them from relative safety seems strong.
With a) How ranged-centric the game should be compared to PF b) How strong a +4 AC is with so few ways to boost AC/To Hit, that should be pretty good.
You can't pull them through solid objects, and you don't get to choose the direction - they always move directly towards you.
So at best, if you can get alongside the cover, and if the cover is open at the side, and if the badguy is very close to the open side of the cover, and if your teammates actions come before the badguy's action, then maybe (don't forget that fort save!) you can pull them out for 1 round of attacks before they move back and shoot you....I'm sure that's going to come up every week.
And even then you're probably better off just getting behind their cover with them and driving them out into the open with smacks to the face. You've got a better chance of keeping them exposed a lot longer that way.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the main culprit is that solar weapon and weapon crystals seem to have been balanced against weapons with an item level equal to the solarian's. But most characters are probably going to be using weapons at a level ahead of theirs (or even two, if they don't mind blowing half their WBL on one item), and on this assumption solar weapon tends to lag behind after 10th level, when weapon damage growth starts accelerating. This isn't a big deal, but it's annoying that solarians have this cool and distinctive feature that usually isn't worth using in practice.
I don't thinks its possible to spend half a character's WBL on a shiny new weapon two levels ahead every time they level up. Even trying to have a weapon 1 level ahead every level is going to put you behind on the WBL curve.
You cannot upgrade equipment (and thus can't preserve its value) and can only sell it for 10% of its value. The economy is fundamentally different from Pathfinder, which means upgrade cycles are going to look different. Here's a quick example.
Start with a 9th level character who has a WBL of 45,000. Assume they have a level 10 weapon that costs 18,000. Using tables 2-4, 11-3, 11-4, and 11-5, you can work out the expected wealth found/earned as you go from level 9 to level 10. My math indicates about ~32,800 credits should be earned.
If you sell your level 10 weapon, you now have a total wealth of: 45,000 - 18,000 + 1,800 + 32,800 =61,600. Thats 4,400 behind WBL guidelines at level 10, with no other expendables used or anything else sold.
Say you go ahead and now buy a level 11 advanced melee weapon for 24,600 (no loss of WBL when buying, just selling). You go and adventure and level up to 11, earning about 52,000 gp.
If you go ahead and sell the level 11 weapon, it will put your total wealth at: 61,600 - 24,600 + 2,460 + 52,000 = 91,460. That's 8,540 credits behind the WBL guidelines.
You haven't upgraded your armor (which is now presumably 3 or more levels out of date), you haven't bought any interesting tech, you haven't spent any expendables, you just tried to keep a cutting edge weapon two levels in a row and you're down 8% in WBL.
Looking at the numbers, its seems more likely you want to sell weapons/armor items when they are level-2 or level-3 of your current level if you want to keep up with WBL, then buy at whatever you can afford (I.e. level+1 or level +2). So keep a weapon for 3 to 5 levels, then upgrade.
Which means the Solarian weapon is going to oscillate between being better and worse depending on where other people are in the upgrade cycle.
|
You can't pull them through solid objects, and you don't get to choose the direction - they always move directly towards you.
So at best, if you can get alongside the cover, and if the cover is open at the side, and if the badguy is very close to the open side of the cover, and if your teammates actions come before the badguy's action, then maybe (don't forget that fort save!) you can pull them out for 1 round of attacks before they move back and shoot you....I'm sure that's going to come up every week.
And even then you're probably better off just getting behind their cover with them and driving them out into the open with smacks to the face. You've got a better chance of keeping them exposed a lot longer that way.
Which ability are you talking about? We must be talking about two different things.
I was referencing Gravity Hold, which says when you are attuned or fully attuned, you move them per Psychokinetic Hand, which has no indication that you can only move them towards you. It also says you can lift them up to 5 feet off the ground which would give more flexibility in case they are behind 5' tall cover.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Pulling a creature out of Cover, or pulling them behind your Cover so you can attack them from relative safety seems strong.
With a) How ranged-centric the game should be compared to PF b) How strong a +4 AC is with so few ways to boost AC/To Hit, that should be pretty good.
You can't pull them through solid objects, and you don't get to choose the direction - they always move directly towards you.
So at best, if you can get alongside the cover, and if the cover is open at the side, and if the badguy is very close to the open side of the cover, and if your teammates actions come before the badguy's action, then maybe (don't forget that fort save!) you can pull them out for 1 round of attacks before they move back and shoot you....I'm sure that's going to come up every week.
And even then you're probably better off just getting behind their cover with them and driving them out into the open with smacks to the face. You've got a better chance of keeping them exposed a lot longer that way.
Opening up space for your melee ally to get behind the foe can be pretty powerful. They can either guarded step and provoke from one of you, or full attack and provoke from both.
Opening up space for your melee ally to get behind the foe can be pretty powerful. They can either guarded step and provoke from one of you, or full attack and provoke from both.
Unless they're backed into a corner, you can both just move either side of them anyway. If they're a melee type then they're likely to save, and if they're not then you don't need to worry about flanking them, just get up in their face and pound away.
Pretty excited about this discussion, hope it keeps up once the book is released to see if I'm really missing something.
I'll likely apply Posthaste for Envoys and grant armor and weapon to Solarions (I think it's a pretty nonchoice ATM) with different scaling, scrap the rest.
I do like the idea of giving more Revelations.
So one of the issues with these fixes (particularly the envoy's) is that you're operating under the assumption that all of the classes should deal equal damage in Starfinder, which is clearly not the case.
Particularly with the envoy, the point of the class is clearly to buff allies and debuff enemies; they're bards, not rogues. An envoy is likely going to be spending most of her time granting additional actions to allies, healing Stamina point damage (currently they're the only class in the game that can do this), or performing sick feints and giving the benefits to allies. When you're shooting, its probably because you can't do something better. It's like a wizard pulling out his crossbow and shooting, or a bard attacking with a shortbow once all his buffs are up.
As for the solarian, I'm only glancing over my copy quickly (I've got a PF game I'm running this evening and need to get back to prep), but it looks to me like you're missing an important piece of the solarian puzzle—weapon crystals. They're these awesome little do-dads that you hold in your hand, lightsaber style, and when you manifest your solar weapon, you add extra damage to it plus a cool critical effect. Solarian damage is competitive, but they tend to fall behind soldiers ever so slightly because their stellar revelations are insane in combat. (Every time I played with a solarian, they had an unmistakable tide-turning battle presence because of the level of command they had over the battlefield, from pulling enemies towards themselves to burning foes with their solar shield. The solarian is an insanely strong class when played well.)
On the Envoy, that's not lost on me – but I do think that it's paying a huge price for being an at-will class, and will probably get upstaged by other support classes, who'll be able to do much more later on in the game.
For Solarions, I was taking weapon crystals into account! And Soldiers still have a strong niche, with extra STR to damage and what not.
For the Envoy, I feel like there's some big, interesting possibilities in giving it some supernatural improvisations and talents that give at-will or constant abilities, including utility effects and passive (but temporarily dispellable) buffs. Basically, borrow heavily from the Kineticist, the 3.5 Warlock, and the third party Avowed.
If they're good enough, this would give the class a substantial power boost and make it much more distinct from the Operative, while still having a fair distinction from the Solarian in theme because of the difference in combat focus.
Has anyone thought that instead of buffing the Envoy you could Nerf the Operative? 4 Attacks? Land Speed of 70ft? Plus under the Triple and Quad it doesn't state extra penalties. Maybe I missed it somewhere but seems a little broken to me.
Opening up space for your melee ally to get behind the foe can be pretty powerful. They can either guarded step and provoke from one of you, or full attack and provoke from both.Unless they're backed into a corner, you can both just move either side of them anyway. If they're a melee type then they're likely to save, and if they're not then you don't need to worry about flanking them, just get up in their face and pound away.
The Solarian in our group has managed to force a fearsome foe away when he almost overwhelmed the group from surprise. Keeping him away long enough for the rest of the group to burn holes in him at range.
He has managed to Supernova to bring a fight that had worn both sides down so much that a hit or more either way from either group would have seen either side falling. Unfortunately at the time we were out of AoE so his Nova decisively killed all combatants but one saving our group and allowing everyone to focus on the last guy standing and kill him so that he never had the chance to get in that last hit that would have finished one of us.
Now hes been debating whether to get (he just turned 6th) reflection... which would of course allow him to use the AC he just got by taking the Heavy Armor feat and using it to slap some extra damage back at the enemy as they miss him. he doesn't have too hard a time hitting and this would allow him to have some much needed ranged damage... Or the ability to stagger the enemy... and stagger means a whole hell of a lot in our game. Our group tries to focus on tactics and control. The Solarian helps ensure that enemies stay at range or come to melee as necessary. He takes care of anything that does get up in our face and he has out of combat utility too. Of our Mechanic, Mystic, Technomancer and he... no one has stood out as more or less useful. Everyone has pulled his weight.
Mind you, if an announcement was made that he could use both the Armor and the Weapon mote... well he would dance a lot and be happy but I don't think he needs that to feel he's doing well.
Just my experience.
I must admit, I really think the Operative's Edge goes too far. It's one thing to be 'good at skills' but the Operative gets faster scaling bonuses with every single skill. Almost every single skill becomes 'Sure, let the Operative do it' as it scales faster at say, Computers and Engineering than the Mechanic does.
Between that + has so, so many skill points there is little niche for non-Operatives outside of combat. Every class should have areas it can contribute in outside of combat without feeling outclassed by a class that is also a hell of a combatant.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd like to preface my comments by saying that I'm not the most mechanic-y mechanicist that ever mechaniced...
However, I do agree that reworks for a brand new class without seeing it in play is a bit premature. I also agree with being able to see some great potential for the Solarion, based on the options present.
After a wave of discussion and a few days of rereading the rules I have definitely change my view on a few things.
Secret Wizard, What about you since you are the OP?
Envoys do fine damage as long as they take longarm proficiency and specialization as feats.
at 3
7.5 avg damage laser
8 for trick attack
at 5
12 avg damage laser
20.5 for trick attack
at 7
16 avg damage gun
26 for trick attack
at 9
19.5 avg damage laser
34 for trick attack, 11.5x3 for triple attack
Not so different than operative if you full attack. That with the bonuses they can give makes them fine.
|
The Solarin inherited the Monk problem. Where your punching needs a much more expensive magical item than the fighter, but both of you are melee combatants. I heard from those with the pdf that the Solarin's magic crystal doodads are super, super expensive. So they are a great idea, if you are making bank. But if you're not, you're really cool looking weapon sounds even less appetizing.
I recently made a Solarin and when the DM brought up that my cool magic crystal doodads were superly priced, I settled for my +1 (max of +2 ac!) armor. I wish the Blackhole power was a move action. At least I could melee attack things that I pulled in close, as a sorta melee character. But no, I just stare at them and do a little jig if I pulled them to surround me.
Now, if you really wanted to combo this with your friends, have them toss a grenade at you! That way, you can utilize your Black Hole power to grab a bunch of people and have them all explode. Including you, of course, you brave Solarin you. #Tactical-excellence
He has managed to Supernova to bring a fight that had worn both sides down so much that a hit or more either way from either group would have seen either side falling. Unfortunately at the time we were out of AoE so his Nova decisively killed all combatants but one saving our group and allowing everyone to focus on the last guy standing and kill him so that he never had the chance to get in that last hit that would have finished one of us.
I'm pretty sure in the description of the ability, it's stated that ALL critters around the Solarin take the damage. Not friendly or enemy critters, all critters. So if that Solarin was nearby the enemy and not allies, great! If not...it would have been more correct for both sides to go down. Which in cramped, shipboard combats, is pretty likely to happen.
Edit: You have to watch out for...friendly fire...as a...as a brazen Solarin.
I recently made a Solarin and when the DM brought up that my cool magic crystal doodads were superly priced, I settled for my +1 (max of +2 ac!) armor. I wish the Blackhole power was a move action. At least I could melee attack things that I pulled in close, as a sorta melee character. But no, I just stare at them and do a little jig if I pulled them to surround me.
Did you compare the Solarian Crystals price with other Melee weapons? It's about the same if not better to get a Solarian Crystal. The critical effects are what get me excited. Plus I can never get my Solarian blade taken from me when captured. Getting Quick Draw feat lvl one.
|
|
I don't have the pdf, but when it comes around, I will. Though I imagine, since a Solarin's weapon can't be destroyed, disarmed, dismantled...it would be very unlikely to get anything from an enemy Solarin.
The price of normal weapons may be similar, but enemies also use normal weapons and those are free...if you do the Dark Souls thing and kill the chum. So after a battle, you could either maybe afford a brand new crystal, or you can simply pick up the enemy melee meathead's weapon and use that and buy yourself something nice.
The price of normal weapons may be similar, but enemies also use normal weapons and those are free...if you do the Dark Souls thing and kill the chum. So after a battle, you could either maybe afford a brand new crystal, or you can simply pick up the enemy melee meathead's weapon and use that and buy yourself something nice.
To second sunderedhero's comments, when I've run campaigns in the past I consider all wealth and items that flows through the character's hands and how they use it in determining their wealth by level. Of course, your GM may handle wealth distribution to the party and between players differently.
I will point out the Game Mastering section also has some helpful comments on how to weigh items in terms of the wealth given out during play. It suggests items likely to be picked up and used should be weighted at full value, while items which are not (say lower level gear than what all the players have) can be considered at the 10% level or even just neglected.
As an example, imagine a Soldier and a Solarian adventuring together. At the end they get paid 10,000 credits for the job, while also taking an advanced melee weapon from the enemy boss they defeated together. That weapon costs 10,000 credits if bought new. If the Soldier claims the weapon to use rather than sell, how would you fairly distribute the 10,000 credits in cash between the two?
Oh no... was never really good at Math.