Hellow everyone!
First of all, greetings from Spain. My nickname is Graelsis, i've been Dungeon Master since sixteens and i've just discovered this fantastic forums over here.
I've to admit that the english speaking community is vastly better than the spanish one, if we are talking about "beeing active" in this role-playing hobby that we all share.
That said, please forgive my writting mistakes, and lets get into the topic: I'm running Rise Of The Runelords this weekend, I created a document for my characters with new traits, role-playing tips and more. One of that tips was about "playing without a cleric". I pointed it as a bad idea in this campaing, due to the lack of healing in the rest of the team.
This is what they have built
-Paladin
-Two handed warrior
-Sorcerer (fire, damage spells)
-Wizard ("premonition" and adivination)
Yesterday, they got into a very hot discussion about "is the cleric really the best healing option? is it really needed?" between two players and the one who was the "last in choosing" in the group building process.
My question to you all is: was i wrong when i suggested that without a cleric they will have a really hard time in this campaing? or will they have enough with a paladin and some pots/magic wands?
Thank you all for your attention
Goblins chew and goblins bite
In general, the game system rewards pc groups that cover all four of the basic roles - arcane, divine, combat and skills. (Aside: your group is weak in skills as well.) Runelords in this sense is fairly typical - I'd be no more or less concerned about a group with very limited divine casting in Runelords than any other adventure. Of course my concern would be High in most cases.
The question about divine casting is one of resiliency - how does the group deal with a variety of debilitating conditions not just hit point damage. There are numerous conditions - energy drain, ability damage/drain, insanity, poison, etc. where divine magic is the best or only recourse for recovery. Your group is all offense, no defense. This works great. Until it doesn't. One failed saving throw and domino's start falling.
This is not just a player issue but it impacts the GM as well - do you need to change NPC tactics? Avoid certain spells, etc. because your group can't cope with them? What happens when the wizard gets feebleminded 15 minutes into a game session and the player gets to sit there doing nothing for hours? Because it takes a while to retreat to someplace that can fix him. And he was they guy with teleport? In the Runelords situation, I would call your attention to Book 5 where the pc's are far, far away from any external/off camera assistance - they have only what they bring with them, yet face an array of high level enemies with a diversity of nasty powers.
I'd be more worried about traps.
It looks like you guys are pretty stacked for rampaging, unless you start rolling crap nothing will last past round two.
Of course if the Paladin or one of the magic go boom twins starts rolling ones you're all going to die. :-)
As far as healing classes the Oracle is the way to go!
Or Alchemist with the infusion trick.
Or a Bard, Shaman, Witch, Warpriest, Investigator or Hydrokineticist.
My group of five started without a cleric and had two deaths before the end of chapter one (one died in the catacombs, one died to Ripnugget in Thistletop). One of the players with a dead PC rolled a warpriest when he rejoined and since then they've been much more effective at handling challenges.
In general (...)
Thank you so much for this advice! i will talk as soon as possible to my group and post the answer here!
I've to say this is a very complete answer, i really aprecciate your implication, for me it's been really usefull.
thanks again!
I'd be more worried about traps(...)
Thank you so much, i'm really worried about this "rampage style" you talk about...It wont take too long until "whooops, rolled 1" i guess.
My group of five started without a cleric and had two deaths before the end of chapter one (...)
Hahahaahaha. God, this post goes right to my player's chat. Thanks a lot man!
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If your players want to continue without cleric/healer, strongly recommend they invest in wands to cover the basics (cure light/moderate, lesser restoration, etc.). Further, have one of them max out their Use Magic Device to allow them easier use of these wands and even some cleric-based scrolls for emergencies.
If your players want to continue without cleric/healer, strongly recommend they invest in wands to cover the basics (cure light/moderate, lesser restoration, etc.). Further, have one of them max out their Use Magic Device to allow them easier use of these wands and even some cleric-based scrolls for emergencies.
This sounded very good for low levels, however, do you really think that they could use this strategy at high levels?
If your players want to continue without cleric/healer, strongly recommend they invest in wands to cover the basics (cure light/moderate, lesser restoration, etc.). Further, have one of them max out their Use Magic Device to allow them easier use of these wands and even some cleric-based scrolls for emergencies.
The Paladin doesn't need UMD to use wands of CLW or lesser/Restoration. With their spell list letting them use wands, mercies, and the Ultimate mercy feat allowing them to raise the dead, they can adequately patch the need for a cleric in a party, though probably at greater cost of gold to the party in general.
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This sounded very good for low levels, however, do you really think that they could use this strategy at high levels?If your players want to continue without cleric/healer, strongly recommend they invest in wands to cover the basics (cure light/moderate, lesser restoration, etc.). Further, have one of them max out their Use Magic Device to allow them easier use of these wands and even some cleric-based scrolls for emergencies.
I'm currently playing in a Jade Regent campaign with no healer, currently level 13. We've had some stumbling, running away, and return to get someone raised from the dead, but it's all part of the story and the challenges this particular group presents.
In my Shattered Star campaign, I have 5 players with a cleric but he's summoning focused. Doesn't do much healing but then the summoned creatures absorb some of the damage (which essentially means less healing needed to the PCs).
I'm currently playing in a Jade Regent campaign with no healer, currently level 13. We've had some stumbling, running away, and return to get someone raised from the dead, but it's all part of the story and the challenges this particular group presents.
In my Shattered Star campaign, I have 5 players with a cleric but he's summoning focused. Doesn't do much healing but then the summoned creatures absorb some of the damage (which essentially means less healing needed to the PCs).
So, as I said to them "its possible, but it will be pretty hard". Thank you very much man, i think they will take good notes of everything you've said to me!
First of all, thank you very much for all the replys i've recieved. I want to say that, after talking to my group and show your tips to them, this is the new composition of the party.
Paladin (the same as the last one, but two handed)
Cleric
Sorcerer (the same as the last one)
"I dont know what to do"
Now I've one player very pissed off with the new composition. If you remember, i told you all they got into a very hot discussion, well, it seems that now my player is bored of the game system and how it rewards a good team composition. I think i will talk about it in another topic.
I just wanted to thank you all for the help, it's been quite usefull!!
Goblins chew, and goblins bite!
Actually, I think it's perfectly playable without a cleric.
Some encounters will be harder (those that cause debilitating conditions). On the other hand, some kinds of encounters will be a lot easier (those that can be solved with high damage output and can be rampaged over). It all balances out in the end, although the party will find some "normal" encounters very challenging and others very easy.
I have played many games without a cleric. With a party willing to invest some gold in Use Magic Device and various scrolls and potions, it's quite doable.
Certainly it's a better option than forcing somebody to play a healer even if they don't want to.
Some non-Cleric options for dealing with what you would need a Cleric for (not just Rise of the Runelords, but in general):
- Oracle (doesn't have to be of Life, although it helps; if you are a Cleric substitute, you will need Expanded Arcana at 8th/9th level to fill out your number of bad status removal spells known that are 3rd level, but once you get past that bottleneck, you should be fine)
- Shaman (missing Remove Disease)
- Druid (missing Restoration above Lesser, and missing Remove Blindness/Deafness and Remove Curse, and Heal is very delayed)
- Witch with the Healing Patron (if you choose another Patron, you will be missing some bad status removal, except that Endurance will eventually fill in the holes, although expensively and very late; with the Healing Patron, you are absolutely set, except that if you choose the Ley Line Guardian archetype, see note above about the Oracle)
- Warpriest (slow progression, and missing Greater Restoration and Heal)
- Alchemist (slow progression, and missing Greater Restoration and Heal, but otherwise pretty good once you get the Infusion Discovery)
- Arcane Physician Wizard (missing Greater Restoration and Heal, but other than that, you should be in pretty good shape)
- Spell Sage Wizard (very inefficient and slow acting, but as long as you don't get hit with too many critical bad status problems at once, and none of the ones that you do get hit with need to be dealt with RIGHT NOW, you should be okay)
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Nobodyshome ran an epic Runelords campaign with a paladin, barbarian, sorcerer, and bard. They managed quite well. His campaign journal: Nobodyshome's ROTRL Campaign.
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Use magic device + scrolls is enought. But they MUST be really prep.
Negative levels are the worst enemy (restoration scrolls)
Paladin should choose remove disease mercy.
Mages should get remove spells
The group should get trap spotter (perception skill + carefull/smart player) and trap triggerer (summon monster, dispell magic, or some tactic)
The paladin can take extra channel if they are short of healing
They should find items to remove conditions
My group is going on 4 years (about one game session a month) and they've just finished book 3, started book 4. No cleric PCs in all that time.
How do they survive? They chug *lots* of potions, and buy up all they can find. Potions are a frequent reward from NPCs, and they make heavy and frequent use of NPC clerics when they can.
Moving forward, as they get further and further from civilization, I think the lack of a divine spellcaster is going to become more and more acute. My bet is that one of them will try to cover this lack with the leadership feat. And since we usually have only 3 or 4 players, having a few adventuring NPCs is not a real negative.
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I'm in a group of 6, with no cleric. It's doable, but you need slightly better planning or a combination that covers the gap. Our group has the following.
Barbarian - 12
Witch/Tatto Mystic - 10/2
Ranger - 12
Rogue/Barbarian - 10/2
Paladin - 12
Sorcerer/Oracle/Evangelist - 6/4/2 (Has a bard cohort as a 7th character)
As you can see, we have enough secondary healing to cover the requirement of a full cleric. Lack of high level restoration and heal effects is a bit of a pain, but manageable. It is all in the planning.
For your group, maybe your wizard would be willing to switch to a witch. They're almost as diverse and just as powerful as a wizard, with the bonus fun of hexes, and cure spells. Add in the Practical Activator character trait that lets a person use intelligence for UMD to cover any healing like spells not already on the witch list, and a witch can really step in as the party healer pretty handily.
Or perhaps your paladin could take a more healing centered archetype? A hospitaler paladin is a pretty competent healer; but lacks some of the high level healing spells. They have enough other advantages though, and a competent UMD specialist in the party will help cover those gaps.
As a general rule, I prefer to let players play what they want; but I do try to steer a party into covering their group flaws to at least a certain degree. Then let them play. Good players will find ways to compensate.
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My group is going on 4 years (about one game session a month) and they've just finished book 3, started book 4. No cleric PCs in all that time.
How do they survive? They chug *lots* of potions, and buy up all they can find. Potions are a frequent reward from NPCs, and they make heavy and frequent use of NPC clerics when they can.
Moving forward, as they get further and further from civilization, I think the lack of a divine spellcaster is going to become more and more acute. My bet is that one of them will try to cover this lack with the leadership feat. And since we usually have only 3 or 4 players, having a few adventuring NPCs is not a real negative.
Hey Wheldrake, are any of your PCs charisma based? If so, see about getting one to take leadership at 7th level to gain a cleric follower. That way, when they get out away from civilization, they'll have somebody with them that can guard the camp, stand up and tank with heavy armor, and heal. Having a cohort can really help a higher level game fill in a gap.
Hellow to everyone new in the post!
First of all and as usuall, thanks a lot for your very aprecciated help and participation.
I've decided to answer you all with one post, i will try to resume my opinion and impressions about my first session with the players, also, i will try to speak a little bit about your suggestions and tips.
Ok, lets get started: yesterday we had our first session with only 3 of my players (cleric, sorcerer and rogue), they did pretty well altough they were only three, but i cant forget its probably because of the goblins behavior (when your enemy starts a duel with torches vs another enemy because of some stolen fish, that makes things easier for you).
Overall, the session went so well. Nevertheless, i think parties without some sort of healing, or a cleric, are only managing to surpass this campaing because of the master will. My team suffered, not a lot, but they suffered, and without the cleric of the group they would have probably fall. I'm not saying we should force players to take a cleric in this campaing, as you've said, NPC's, potions and other stuff can make the deal and let the party survive, but in my opinion a healer is the real deal here.
For biggers groups without a cleric, i think your force live on the number, we cant forget that ROTRL is a campaing made for a team of 4 players. (talking about that, i've another player wanting to enter, and i dont know if i should have more players than 4)
Thank you all again for all the information, council and guidance you have made, im sure my players will learn a lot about your experience, and of course they will think before running into the frey waving their swords.
...we cant forget that ROTRL is a campaing made for a team of 4 players. (talking about that, i've another player wanting to enter, and i dont know if i should have more players than 4)
Adding a 5th pc is another option for increasing the resiliency of the group - failed saves/unconscious pc's/etc. are less dangerous going from 5 pc's to 4, than 4 pc's to 3. Another pc could be a cleric (if the player is interested) or another pc to employ some of the techniques referenced in the thread above - UMD, magic items, etc.
There are multiple threads in the RotRL forum that discuss scaling the adventure for more than 4 pc's. And if you're going to play some of the time with players/pc's absent you may not need to do that. I also might suggest, pending the system mastery of your players, that you don't start any scaling even with 5 players and start doing it only when they are consistently overcoming encounters easily.
I actually like an Oracle in this campaign more than a Cleric, in part because their heals are spontaneous (and I tend to favor spontaneous casters in general). Normally I would suggest an Ancient Lorekeeper, but it looks like you've got the arcane casting pretty much covered.
A Heavens Oracle of Desna could really fit in nicely with this campaign in my opinion. Healing and control, freeing up your other casters to do their thing.
...we cant forget that ROTRL is a campaing made for a team of 4 players. (talking about that, i've another player wanting to enter, and i dont know if i should have more players than 4)Adding a 5th pc is another option for increasing the resiliency of the group - failed saves/unconscious pc's/etc. are less dangerous going from 5 pc's to 4, than 4 pc's to 3. Another pc could be a cleric (if the player is interested) or another pc to employ some of the techniques referenced in the thread above - UMD, magic items, etc.
There are multiple threads in the RotRL forum that discuss scaling the adventure for more than 4 pc's. And if you're going to play some of the time with players/pc's absent you may not need to do that. I also might suggest, pending the system mastery of your players, that you don't start any scaling even with 5 players and start doing it only when they are consistently overcoming encounters easily.
In the end, they are going to be just 4 players. Have i wrote this sentence correctly?
Not because of me but because of the player pretending to enter the game, it seems she's not very compromised and my group play every saturday evening.For the rest, i must say that i didnt think about the benefits of beeing 5, maybe i focused too much in the extra work i would have to do, you see, i'm quite busy during the week. I also havent heard about "scaling only when your group overcome the encounters easily", maybe its a very fine way to put them to the test.
I actually like an Oracle in this campaign more than a Cleric, in part because their heals are spontaneous (and I tend to favor spontaneous casters in general). Normally I would suggest an Ancient Lorekeeper, but it looks like you've got the arcane casting pretty much covered.
A Heavens Oracle of Desna could really fit in nicely with this campaign in my opinion. Healing and control, freeing up your other casters to do their thing.
I'm havent read a thing about oracles, maybe its time to pay them some attention? I dont know. I think i would do it when one of my players show some interest on the class, but as a player, i like healers, so i will give them a try and see what can they offer me