
RoseCrown |
I was just ambushed, but luckily managed to fend off the attack long enough to explain that I needed a little time to figure out the answers, so here:
One of my players have been reading up on Shadow magic, in particular Shadow Evocation. So now I have to answer questions like
1) Admixture specialists exist in setting, so things like Acid Ball exist in setting. More specifically, Fire Ball is really just (Element) Ball. All of these variants are cast as 3rd level evocations spells, and so he should be able to imitate them with Shadow Evocations, correct?
2) Fire Ball is a 3rd level evocation spell, making intensified Fire Ball a 4th level evocation spell. So he should be able to cast that with Shadow Evocation, right? Or Empowered Scorching Ray? (Note: his character does not have either metamagical feat)

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1) Nope. You can cast imitations of truly existing spells. Variations that you can finagle with class abilities don't count.
2) Nope. The player could prepare an Intensified/Empowered Shadow Evocation though.
I play an illusionist and I'm pretty burned out on shadow evocation. Without the bag of tricks that a dedicated evoker brings with him, blasting doesn't normally do enough damage compared to controlling/buffing.

Saldiven |
I agree with Ascalaphus, too.
1. The spell is Fireball. "Acid ball" and "cold ball" do not exist as spells. The spell is still "Fireball." There is merely an ability that modifies the elemental damage type, but nothing else about the spell changes. For the same reason, you can't use it to cast Fireball with an Evoker's extra damage points, or an Orc Bloodline Sorcerer's extra damage. These changes come from class abilities, not the spell.
2. Pretty much the same thing. There is no spell called "Intensified Fireball." It is a spell that has a metamagic feat applied to it; that doesn't change the fact that the spell is "Fireball." It's the same as not being able to use Shadow Conjuration to summon creatures that have the benefits of Augment Summoning and/or Evolved Summon Monster.

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I play an illusionist and I'm pretty burned out on shadow evocation. Without the bag of tricks that a dedicated evoker brings with him, blasting doesn't normally do enough damage compared to controlling/buffing.
I agree with the second sentence but not the first :)
The "you get two saves" (or "you get a save and I have to make an attack roll") is another way in which shadow evocation is limited. However I find it's still a great spell for spontaneous casters to have. Not just for when you occasionally need to blast but for weird situations where you or your allies can voluntarily fail the saving throw to get some form of benefit. I have shadow evoked draconic reservoir, channel the gift, and daylight ("Guys, I need you to all believe in the power of the light!") at various times. And tiny hut is so useful.
Shadow conjuration is, of course, even more useful in these ways.

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Shadow Evocation Deeper Darkness. You can see, people without see in darkness cannot.
Surprisingly enough, deeper darkness is not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Also, everyone would get a save.
Shadow Evocation Resilient Sphere. If they fail their save they cannot move / are trapped but you can hit them just fine. Can also use defensively to block melee's from smacking you
It is still an illusion so as soon as they interact with it (swing at you) they get a save. But yeah, it's still got a decent chance to block attacks. If you cast it on someone else it's a 20% chance that your attacks won't get through either :)

Firewarrior44 |

Firewarrior44 wrote:Shadow Evocation Deeper Darkness. You can see, people without see in darkness cannot.Surprisingly enough, deeper darkness is not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Also, everyone would get a save.
Quote:Shadow Evocation Resilient Sphere. If they fail their save they cannot move / are trapped but you can hit them just fine. Can also use defensively to block melee's from smacking youIt is still an illusion so as soon as they interact with it (swing at you) they get a save. But yeah, it's still got a decent chance to block attacks. If you cast it on someone else it's a 20% chance that your attacks won't get through either :)
Hmm strange never know that about Darkness. Edit: Although Blacklight Is on the wizard list and if you informed team mates that it was an illusion it's essentially a mass blind foes.
To the Resilient sphere if you make your save then there's a 0% chance of your attacks being blocked as you passed the save. So enemies that fail their save are essentially stuck in a 1 way bubble
"Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect."

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I was just ambushed, but luckily managed to fend off the attack long enough to explain that I needed a little time to figure out the answers, so here:
One of my players have been reading up on Shadow magic, in particular Shadow Evocation.
The main "abuse" of this spell is just in giving casters with limited spells known a spell that mimics any other spell. Not really game breaking, but it does give a significant boost to spontaneous casters.
It can be particularly interesting when cast via a Wayang Oracle, which can use their Favored Class Bonus to acquire this spell, despite it not being a normally Oracle Spell.

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To the Resilient sphere if you make your save then there's a 0% chance of your attacks being blocked as you passed the save. So enemies that fail their save are essentially stuck in a 1 way bubble
"Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect."
I can see that argument.
I might, however, consider the "aggressive" use of resilient sphere (trying to trap someone) to be an attack with an effect other than damage. Which would mean that even if the enemy passed their save vs. illusion they would still have a 20% chance to be affected. I'll think on that a bit.

Agodeshalf |

But if my sorcerer has Elemental (acid) spell, and Fireball, and a few other metamagic feats ( Empower, Intensify, etc), why can't I mimic those with Shadow evocation. As long as the resultant spell is 4th level or lower, what is the issue. Given that he can actually cast the spell, I'm not sure I understand why it couldn't work.

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But if my sorcerer has Elemental (acid) spell, and Fireball, and a few other metamagic feats ( Empower, Intensify, etc), why can't I mimic those with Shadow evocation. As long as the resultant spell is 4th level or lower, what is the issue. Given that he can actually cast the spell, I'm not sure I understand why it couldn't work.
Because you apply metamagic feats to a spell, not to the effects of a spell. You could cast an Empowered shadow evocation using a 7th level slot.

toastedamphibian |
But if my sorcerer has Elemental (acid) spell, and Fireball, and a few other metamagic feats ( Empower, Intensify, etc), why can't I mimic those with Shadow evocation. As long as the resultant spell is 4th level or lower, what is the issue. Given that he can actually cast the spell, I'm not sure I understand why it couldn't work.
Well, you could Elemental Spell your shadow evocation as you cast it, using a higher level slot and increasing the casting time.