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Background: I'm playing a Str-based Investigator with long spear and Combat Reflexes. I have got the Half-Orc trait Tusked to threaten adjacent squares and eventually stack up some damage full attacking (either by biting two different targets [one adjacent and one at 10ft], or by attacking one target with a 1.5ft step between attacks). Since it is my only natural attack, it counts as primary and adds 1.5x Str to damage when used alone. Unfortunately, my defenses are quite weak.
I have just hit level 3, and I would like to get either Vestigial Arm or Tentacle to be able to use a shield as well, with the extra arm/tentacle being used to wield the spear. These are the scenarios I have considered so far:
1- Vestigial Arm. It simply gives me the ability to wield both a long spear and a shield. Nothing else happens
2- Tentacle. As above, however I also get a second natural attack, therefore the bite now adds only 1x Str to damage, rather than 1.5x. In change, I get a secondary attack with grab which might add a bit of versatility to the character. On the second round of a successful grapple action, I can deal both tentacle (1d4 + 0.5x Str, because of grab) and bite damage (1d4 + 1x Str) [I've seen several threads about this, however my GM confirmed it works in this way]
3- Tentacle and NO bite. Without the bite, the tentacle becomes the only natural attacks, thereby adding 1.5x Str to damage. This makes not only the first hit easier, but it allows me to deal tentacle damage twice when maintaining a grapple, for a total of 2d4 + 3x Str. I can still attack creatures in adjacent squares if I leave the hold on the spear, however I don't threaten them for the purpose of AoO (since I will be using the tentacle to hold the spear), but most importantly I can't full attack anymore. In turn, I get a free trait.
Could you please help me decide? Of course option 1 is the simplest, but I see some potential in the grabbing tentacle that keeps bugging me. Maybe you can see something I'm missing that could help make up my mind.
Thank you
Tentacle and NO BITE has options.
You do not need to necessarily invest into grappling to be able to use at least some grappling once you have grab (since it avoids AoOs and gives a +4- about the same as the grappling feats). It is certainly enough to deal with casters (ie- magical girls are weak to tentacles).
Obviously, it gets much stronger if you have the grapple feats- better action economy, and more bonuses. With the grapple feats, grab, mutagen, and other buffs (enlarge person seems obvious), you can get a fantastic grapple bonus- enough that you are likely better than anyone that is not a druid (better at being big with grab) or a tetori monk (who are devoted to solving all grapple problems).
And you can do all this while grabbing the basics of a reach build. I won't bother to re-write up a build, but there is enough room to grab most of the important feats without too much trouble (since you can focus on reach early, and put off grappling until later, since the +4 already gives you a lot).
So it is possible to make a build with a ton of options if you go with tentacles. Reach, grappling, buffs, and debuff bombs- a fine set of things you can stuff into one build.
The proboem I see about option 3 is the loss of the secondary natural attack whipe full attacking with manufactured weapons. It may be not be much at the moment, with -5 to hit and half strength to damage, but at high level, with buffs and whatever, it becomes quite important.
Depends on what build you are using. A reach build doesn't mind that much, since there is little to no overlap pf range between a longspear and a natural attack.
Also, there are other problems with getting an extra natural attack. If your main thing is a manufacture weapon, you have to upgrade the natural attack separately (which at least means it eats up a spell slot, and cannot deal with DR if you use magic fang).
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I don't see either as options for the investigator.
Benefit: The investigator can select one of the following alchemist discoveries as an investigator talent: combine extracts, concentrate poison, dilution, elixir of life, enhance potion, eternal potion, extend potion, infusion, mutagen, and poison conversion.
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I don't see either as options for the investigator.
Benefit: The investigator can select one of the following alchemist discoveries as an investigator talent: combine extracts, concentrate poison, dilution, elixir of life, enhance potion, eternal potion, extend potion, infusion, mutagen, and poison conversion.
WOW. This was unexpected. I was so sure I could get any Alchemist Discovery I didn't even check. Thanks for the hint!
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I just want to say I appreciate this thread for basically having a twist ending.
I just want to say I appreciate this thread for basically having a twist ending.
I was a center of the thread and never noticed we were not talking about alchemists (hey-alchemist discoveries). So even I got blindsided.
Anyway-yeah, either go with bite or go with alchemist, since the main debate became moot. You could also go without a bite- it isn't that bad (although it is troublesome if you try to combine reach weapons with the basic buff enlarge person without some semiviable close punishment)
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If your issue is defense if you post the build I may be able to give some advice.
You can invest or dip for armor proficency. That should help. Invest in umd and be very agressive with casting shield. Get phalanx formation and stand behind someone. Pick up mutagen.
Ac should look like this 6 medium armor, 2 Dex, 2 mutagen, barkskin 2 or more (find a higher level potion and use alchemical allocation), 4 shield, + magic items.
Eventually resinous skin for dr and displacment.
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Thanks for the help, guys.
Let's assume I'm playing an Alchemist(since I probably will) and continue with the argument.
I do believe that option 3 is the best one for grappling, however I think grappling is not the best option for this character. It's very feat intensive to be viable and doesn't fit well with reach and combat reflexes, since you can't do AoO while grappling (unless you take -20 to grapple checks, which is bad)
How about option 2? It still gives me a secondary bite to be used with the spear. While enlarged, the threatened ring at 10ft overlaps. Additionally, I have often had opponents on both adjacent squares and at 10ft: in this way, I could attack both in one round. Otherwise, in case of a single enemy 10ft away, I could hit it with the spear, make a 5ft step, and bite it.
Furthermore, I get a versatile grabbing tentacle which could be useful in some circumstances, albeit with -5 to hit. This reduces the damage of the bite when used alone, but this doesn't happen very often.
What do you think?
BTW, Grandlounge, Shield is already on the Alchemist spell list. I'm not very eager of getting medium armor since I'm also the one who disables traps. At the moment I'm wearing a MWK chain shirt and I'm planning on buying a cracked ioun stone for a +1 to Disable Device to offset the ACP. I know I could get a mithral Breastplate, but I could just stick to the chain shirt and spend those 4k more needed to buy the mithral breastplate to upgrade the chain shirt. Phalanx formation is ok, but so far my teammates have been nice enough to place themselves on the battlefield without hindering me, so Phalanx Formation is not a must for now.
just rely on your mutagen and barkskin for armor.
at lv4 your AC is
10+2dex+4armor+2mutagen+2barkskin for +20 AC with no real gold spent. As you level your barkskin naturally scales up meaning your AC will stay great as you invest your normal money.
at lv6 it's probably up by 4, +2 armor, barkskin increase, and +1 ring of protection, for a 24 AC.
At lv9 it's up another 2 or 3 at least as you upgrade gear and barkskin upgrades for 26/27 AC.
I've played a strenthigator using a longspear and had great AC and never bothered needing something to threaten close. He's now lv12 in PFS playing eyes.
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just rely on your mutagen and barkskin for armor.
at lv4 your AC is
10+2dex+4armor+2mutagen+2barkskin for +20 AC with no real gold spent. As you level your barkskin naturally scales up meaning your AC will stay great as you invest your normal money.
at lv6 it's probably up by 4, +2 armor, barkskin increase, and +1 ring of protection, for a 24 AC.
At lv9 it's up another 2 or 3 at least as you upgrade gear and barkskin upgrades for 26/27 AC.I've played a strenthigator using a longspear and had great AC and never bothered needing something to threaten close. He's now lv12 in PFS playing eyes.
True, but all these bonuses are not constant at all. At third level a Mutagen lasts 30 minutes, and in a campaign were random encounters are rolled every 30 minutes, the group has no time to stop and wait one hour until the Alchemist/Investigator has re-brewed its Mutagen. Same for Barkskin, which btw doesn't come before level 4.
Of course, in case of an announced boss, we could say that the character has such AC, but in general he doesn't, and his AC is more probable to be somewhere around 16 most of the time, rather than 20.
But again, as always, we are derailing.
The extra arm/tentacle idea comes from the need of an AC boost, but I also kind of like it, which means that I will take it, no matter what. The question, in fact, is:
Which one of the three options best suits the character I have described, in your opinion?
"Option 4: do not use a shield" is not an answer.
If you exploring a place takes longer than 30 minutes, and that random encounters are rolled every 30 minutes you are correct that the AC listed is less useful. So if that's your game that isn't like most others then I can see why you'd not care for the possible. In most games you can usually guess if fights are happening in the next half-hour, so the vast majority of your fights can have the full AC.
as to the question, it really doesn't matter and all options make no difference worth caring about to matter. Just pick which you think is cooler, looks cooler, or whatever. I've played about 8 reach characters in PFS and most had no way of threatening up close, it's not really mattered for them, and the ones that do threaten have hardly used it. So the bite and/or the tentacle being able to attack at close is really something I wouldn't care about.
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I have played PFS. Encounters there are almost highlighted with a LED arrow and the party has usually so much time to spare that the Alchemist can assume to have a fresh Mutagen at each fight. But this is NOT PFS, we are not on the PFS board, and it's not useful using it as a comparison term.
Anyway, I'm playing Rappan Athuk for what it matters: dungeon crawl with both defined and random encounters, the latter rolled every 30 minutes.
So far I've been using the bite quite a few times, both as a standalone attack (when I couldn't reposition myself or the enemy was in cover) and as part of a full attack (to hit two creatures, one adjacent and one at 10ft, or to finish off one already injured).
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Given what you said my advice for shield wand still stands just as an alchemist you don't have to UMD it.
1- Vestigial Arm. It simply gives me the ability to wield both a long spear and a shield. Nothing else happens
This is ok would you retrain out your bite? What would you replace it with? that's is what really need to be compared. Otherwise a shield is better than not.
2- Tentacle. As above, however I also get a second natural attack, therefore the bite now adds only 1x Str to damage, rather than 1.5x. In change, I get a secondary attack with grab which might add a bit of versatility to the character. On the second round of a successful grapple action, I can deal both tentacle (1d4 + 0.5x Str, because of grab) and bite damage (1d4 + 1x Str) [I've seen several threads about this, however my GM confirmed it works in this way
This is worth remembering "The tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round". I take that to mean it can only be used as a "primary attack" or for AOO but not part of iterative attacks. But it has grab and investigators make good grapplers if you build them correctly. It still provides useful utility. You can still use your bite as a secondary and you lose nothing when using it in that manner. So, you gain defense, and several offensive options for the cost of a little damage in pretty bad situaitons (backed into a corner). The one draw back is the odd chance you need to bite though DR. This options seems like a straight upgrade.
3- Tentacle and NO bite. Without the bite, the tentacle becomes the only natural attacks, thereby adding 1.5x Str to damage. This makes not only the first hit easier, but it allows me to deal tentacle damage twice when maintaining a grapple, for a total of 2d4 + 3x Str. I can still attack creatures in adjacent squares if I leave the hold on the spear, however I don't threaten them for the purpose of AoO (since I will be using the tentacle to hold the spear), but most importantly I can't full attack anymore. In turn, I get a free trait.
I would take the free trait if your allowed to. You would be better off carrying a spear for times you are in tight quarters. The value of the bite as a secondary attack drops off really fast mid and high levels.
Quick summary
- A second weapon is better for close up fighting in basically everyway. (iterative attacks, better damage, can deal with DR)
- If an AOO is provoked it will always be better to take it with your weapon. So, aoos with the tentacle are minor.
- Having the option to grapple casters is amazing in mid levels.
- Having better AC will be good as I hear this is a really tough dungeon.
In conclusion option 3 but buy a spear. Or 2 if you want to squeeze a little extra damage out but polymorphing will be a better way of doing this. Starting with alter self and moving on to monsterous physique.
I'm confused how a tentacle manages to:
1) Grant you a natural attack
2) Not grant you extra attacksHow does that work?
Just like the vestigial arm, it wasn't intended to make a multiattack monstrosity. They've already clarified the extra arms allow you to technically do TWF with greatswords (but wasn't intended that way), but you don't gain extra attacks with it. They give you more options, not more attacks. While animals can usually attack with every natural attack in a full-round, an Alchemist still has to choose.
You've seen my Alchemist in action. I wield two weapons in four arms, but I still attack as much as my BAB allows me. That's it.
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With Vestigial Arm it's simple; BAB and 2WF determine the number of attacks you can make, the number of arms doesn't.
But Tentacle is a natural attack, and having more of those normally does increase the number of attacks you get to make.
For example: an alchemist with one tentacle could make one tentacle attack. But if he takes the discovery twice (which is allowed), can he make two tentacle attacks during a full attack?
It simply says in the description, The tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though he can use it to make a tentacle attack (1d4 damage for a Medium alchemist, 1d3 damage for a Small one) with the grab ability.
If the rules say it works like this, it works like this.
Also, maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anything saying you can take the tentacle more than once. Compare Tentacle to Vestigial Arm, for example.
They've already clarified the extra arms allow you to technically do TWF with greatswords (but wasn't intended that way), but you don't gain extra attacks with it. They give you more options, not more attacks. While animals can usually attack with every natural attack in a full-round, an Alchemist still has to choose.
You've seen my Alchemist in action. I wield two weapons in four arms, but I still attack as much as my BAB allows me. That's it.
This isn't actually true. I believe SKR shut down the 2 greatswords, but said it was okay to have a greatsword and a shield.