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So my WotR players...well, player to be honest...is planning for the future. Level 20 to be exact, but his planning starts at level 16-ish.
He wants to create a Staff of Wish.
It will take all 10 charges to cast the Wish spell.
By the formula this will cost ~131k gp. His math, and I trust his mathing ability.
I have already said that that price is just plain wrong.
Ring of 3 wishes is 120k and becomes nonmagical after the 3rd wish.
The Tomes of +5 bonus to an ability score are 137k and again are rendered inert after use.
This is a 3 Wish per month item basically...and the insanity gets more fun when he gets to level 20 (he is a wildblooded Arcane(Sage) Sorcerer).
What do you think it should cost?
I don't have an issue with him making this item...I also have a cost in mind...I want to gauge pricing thoughts from the community.
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using all ten charges has been pointed before by the paizo staff as being cheese and say most staffs at most should divide charges by 3 not by 10.
Of course, your game, so you can do whatever you want but anyway...if you still want to allow him to spend 10 charges to cast Wish, you can follow the guideline of magic item creation, where you do a reality check on the price of the staff compared to other items.
comparing the 3 wishes that don't recharge to his staff, you would be look ing at least at quadruple the price of the ring. So something like 520 000 gp.
Takes him 10 wishes to recharge one over the course of 10 days. M component cost he left off his pricing, or he misapplied that cost. Thus, he has to spend 250,000 gp to recharge ONE wish. Long-term, it is much cheaper to pony up 1,250,000 gp to integrate the M component into the staff. (Staves can be recharged, so one has to supply 50 25,000 gp diamonds during the construction of the staff.) The M component cost is additive. It should not be reduced just because the staff has to nom its entire payload to power a single wish.
That'd be my ruling at least. ;)
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Takes him 10 wishes to recharge one over the course of 10 days. M component cost he left off his pricing, or he misapplied that cost. Thus, he has to spend 250,000 gp to recharge ONE wish. Long-term, it is much cheaper to pony up 1,250,000 gp to integrate the M component into the staff. (Staves can be recharged, so one has to supply 50 25,000 gp diamonds during the construction of the staff.) The M component cost is additive. It should not be reduced just because the staff has to nom its entire payload to power a single wish.
That'd be my ruling at least. ;)
Spell lvl x caster lvl x 400 / charges used
9*17*400/10 = 6120
Material component x 50 / charges used
25000*50/10 = 125000
Total cost
131120Cast wish for 10 charges
Here is the calculations..which I do believe is correct.
And to recharge a staff you do not need to spend the same spell and components to recharge. Just need to spend a spell slot of the highest level of spell in the staff. Since there is only a Wish spell only level 9 spell slots can be used to recharge. So, only 1 charge per day total can be recharged.
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using all ten charges has been pointed before by the paizo staff as being cheese and say most staffs at most should divide charges by 3 not by 10.
Of course, your game, so you can do whatever you want but anyway...if you still want to allow him to spend 10 charges to cast Wish, you can follow the guideline of magic item creation, where you do a reality check on the price of the staff compared to other items.
comparing the 3 wishes that don't recharge to his staff, you would be look ing at least at quadruple the price of the ring. So something like 520 000 gp.
Can you point to a staff member saying as such.
Why quadruple. I would like to hear your reasoning. I off the top of my head said I would have it cost 2.5 times the price he was quoting.
I have no issue with the staff at that point into the campaign that just drives way off the deep end of balance, but I do not want to just make it that easy.
So if I could hear your reasons why you would quadruple the cost I would get to see how another sees it.
hrm ... so the daily cost is the factor that reduces cost and M component cost. Fair enough. Good call on the recharge specifics, as I've not worried about staves of that magnitude in a long, long time. :)
Around the time of attaining 16th level, is the group even going to have 132 days of consecutive down time for him to craft that staff?
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using all ten charges has been pointed before by the paizo staff as being cheese and say most staffs at most should divide charges by 3 not by 10.
Of course, your game, so you can do whatever you want but anyway...if you still want to allow him to spend 10 charges to cast Wish, you can follow the guideline of magic item creation, where you do a reality check on the price of the staff compared to other items.
comparing the 3 wishes that don't recharge to his staff, you would be look ing at least at quadruple the price of the ring. So something like 520 000 gp.
Can you point to a staff member saying as such.
Why quadruple. I would like to hear your reasoning. I off the top of my head said I would have it cost 2.5 times the price he was quoting.
I have no issue with the staff at that point into the campaign that just drives way off the deep end of balance, but I do not want to just make it that easy.
So if I could hear your reasons why you would quadruple the cost I would get to see how another sees it.
sure:
Sean K. Reynold in 2010.|
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Around the time of attaining 16th level, is the group even going to have 132 days of consecutive down time for him to craft that staff?
We didn't get into specifics about that part yet, though I do believe that the idea is to fund a caster of the appropriate level to actually create it.
The AP does advance over months and years as it is actually a war. The 5th Crusade is not expected to complete in a few weeks, so for many actions like this there is a fair amount of downtime to do it.
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using all ten charges has been pointed before by the paizo staff as being cheese and say most staffs at most should divide charges by 3 not by 10.
Of course, your game, so you can do whatever you want but anyway...if you still want to allow him to spend 10 charges to cast Wish, you can follow the guideline of magic item creation, where you do a reality check on the price of the staff compared to other items.
comparing the 3 wishes that don't recharge to his staff, you would be look ing at least at quadruple the price of the ring. So something like 520 000 gp.
Can you point to a staff member saying as such.
Why quadruple. I would like to hear your reasoning. I off the top of my head said I would have it cost 2.5 times the price he was quoting.
I have no issue with the staff at that point into the campaign that just drives way off the deep end of balance, but I do not want to just make it that easy.
So if I could hear your reasons why you would quadruple the cost I would get to see how another sees it.
sure:
Sean K. Reynold in 2010.
Not quite as damning as I was hoping.
The formula gives an estimate of 131,120gp and you are indeed free to change that, but it doesn't seem crazy to me.
To create a staff of Wish he will have to be able to cast Wish (spell trigger item prerequisites can not be avoided by simply increasing the DC). So, at 17th level he will have the ability to cast Wish once for 25,000gp or once every ten days for 130,000gp. How good is the latter?
Well, to get a savings over simply casting Wish he will need to use the staff six times, which will take him 182 days (132 days to get the first Wish, 50 days to get the next 5).
Once the party hits level 17, will the entire campaign last more than 182 days? If not, the staff is a colossal waste of time and money. If so, what the hell are they dawdling for? What could they possibly be doing which will keep demigods with 17 levels and however many mythic tiers busy for 6 months?
I'm not up on the mythic rules, are there ways to make and/or charge the staff faster? Under the core rules, they just don't have the time.
I'm thinking along the same lines as this guy
really doesn't seem that crazy to me.|
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The formula gives an estimate of 131,120gp and you are indeed free to change that, but it doesn't seem crazy to me.
To create a staff of Wish he will have to be able to cast Wish (spell trigger item prerequisites can not be avoided by simply increasing the DC). So, at 17th level he will have the ability to cast Wish once for 25,000gp or once every ten days for 130,000gp. How good is the latter?
Well, to get a savings over simply casting Wish he will need to use the staff six times, which will take him 182 days (132 days to get the first Wish, 50 days to get the next 5).
Once the party hits level 17, will the entire campaign last more than 182 days? If not, the staff is a colossal waste of time and money. If so, what the hell are they dawdling for? What could they possibly be doing which will keep demigods with 17 levels and however many mythic tiers busy for 6 months?
I'm not up on the mythic rules, are there ways to make and/or charge the staff faster? Under the core rules, they just don't have the time.
I'm thinking along the same lines as this guy
really doesn't seem that crazy to me.
ok.
the ap is designed to take place over a fair amount of time. It is not like most other APs where it finishes up by level 15-17 and you "just" get to being able to cast Wish when you are finishing up. This is a full L20 AP. Only the final book has a hard line short timer.
But this isn't about the time to craft. Once the item is in hand it is powerful item.
Do you think that an item that can cast 3 wishes a month is fairly insignificantly more costly than an item that can only do it 3 times before it loses all its' magic?
You know honestly I would have no problem with it doing the copy spells wish effect I think I would just want to regulate the big flashy Wish effects. (the dm abjucation ones) I think that would be my main worry. I don't think 3 wishes a month is going to break your game, but that is my opinion.
Honestly I would probably tell the player we will see how it goes and retain the right to veto at a later point if it becomes game breaking.
I do think it should cost quite a bit more then the ring. 1 (or 3) shot items being noticeably cheaper then items that can do their ability forever albeit it only so many per month makes since.
if they had to maybe burn expensive gems or something to recharge it I would let that regulate the cost.
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You know honestly I would have no problem with it doing the copy spells wish effect I think I would just want to regulate the big flashy Wish effects. (the dm abjucation ones) I think that would be my main worry. I don't think 3 wishes a month is going to break your game, but that is my opinion.
Honestly I would probably tell the player we will see how it goes and retain the right to veto at a later point if it becomes game breaking.
I do think it should cost quite a bit more then the ring. 1 (or 3) shot items being noticeably cheaper then items that can do their ability forever albeit it only so many per month makes since.
if they had to maybe burn expensive gems or something to recharge it I would let that regulate the cost.
Yeah, power wise I am not worried.
This is WotR and power containment is really out the window. This is thoroughly a free for all.
I am more just looking at the cost of the item. I don't think it is priced right when going off the formula. I am looking at what others think it more inline.
Even the most powerful staff in the game, that is purchasable, is the Staff of Power and that is 235k. This is more powerful than that in many respects.
I agree the price should be way more then a ring. It has so many obvious advantages over the ring.
hmm just a waste.
he could have planned better.
my wotw Asmodenian cleric\exalted could at level 15 use a limited form of miracle (the level 10 exalted Perform miracle class ability) for free once a day. and once he got to level 17 (9th levle casting), since he picked divine subdomain (from magic domain) for his exlated level 5 Expanded portfolio class ability. he got a 1/day spell like ability to cast miracle. so that is 1 full and one lesser miricles at level 17 with no cost added...
(also 1/day resuraction as spell like ability at levels 13+ no added cost)
Here's the greatest weakness - it's a staff. Hardness 5, 10 hp or so. It is one chain lightning away from incineration. It is simply smarter to spend the funds on a pair of rings that are easily hidden than a really expensive stick... ;)
The 1st rule of custom magic items is compare to something similar. Imo that means the formula price is low.
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Not when you factor in that by L20 he will be able to cast, through the staff alone with no charges from the staff used, theoretically, 12x21 Wish spells a day.What lets him do that?
wildblood sor arcane(sage) capstone.
: At 20th level, your body surges with arcane power. You can add any metamagic feats that you know to your spells without increasing their casting time, although you must still expend higher-level spell slots. Whenever you use magic items that require charges, you can instead expend spell slots to power the item. For every three levels of spell slots that you expend, you consume one less charge when using a magic item that expends charges.
By this time they will be about 10th tier.
30 spell levels to cast a wish through the staff with Arcane Apotheosis.
By rough calculations he can do this 12 times through his spell slots.
21 mythic surges
1 mythic surge and an hour rest he will get all his slots back.
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Here's the greatest weakness - it's a staff. Hardness 5, 10 hp or so. It is one chain lightning away from incineration. It is simply smarter to spend the funds on a pair of rings that are easily hidden than a really expensive stick... ;)
hahaha...that would be a sure fire Dink move. Let him craft it then break it in his first combat.
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hmm just a waste.
he could have planned better.
my wotw Asmodenian cleric\exalted could at level 15 use a limited form of miracle (the level 10 exalted Perform miracle class ability) for free once a day. and once he got to level 17 (9th levle casting), since he picked divine subdomain (from magic domain) for his exlated level 5 Expanded portfolio class ability. he got a 1/day spell like ability to cast miracle. so that is 1 full and one lesser miricles at level 17 with no cost added...
(also 1/day resuraction as spell like ability at levels 13+ no added cost)
Congrats. Not sure how what you did with a completely different PC in a completely different game invalidates what he is doing...
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It should be an artifact and not something capable of construction by a PC.
Remember that you, as GM, are final arbiter of what is allowed in customer magic items. Just because there is a guideline in place for how to get a rough estimate of what such an item would cost to create doesn't mean you have to allow any such item to be created.
I thought about that.
I have let himknow that I may require his to make it a Legendary item as per the mythic rules...most likely get it to at least medium artifact.
Again. Powerwise, I am not having an issue. I will let him have the staff.
I won't let him have it at a 131k gp pricetag. That is just way too low. I have mentioned to him that I am starting the cost at 330k-ish.
So I am wondering what others would say it should cost.
*Glances in* By the way, for 330k, you could buy approximately 86 Scrolls of Wish. Those would broadly be usable faster and easier than a staff that needs recharging.
You forgot material components. You would only get about 11 scrolls for that much.
The bigger issue is that the player will be using the Arcane Bloodline capstone. IIRC there is even an item which lets you get it 4 levels earlier by advancing your bloodline by 4 levels. This means 4 levels of wish spam. And Wish is really, really good as a combat spell. Like "will save or you all get teleported into the sun or the negative energy plane" every encounter type good.
*Glances in* By the way, for 330k, you could buy approximately 86 Scrolls of Wish. Those would broadly be usable faster and easier than a staff that needs recharging.You forgot material components. You would only get about 11 scrolls for that much.
The bigger issue is that the player will be using the Arcane Bloodline capstone. IIRC there is even an item which lets you get it 4 levels earlier by advancing your bloodline by 4 levels. This means 4 levels of wish spam. And Wish is really, really good as a combat spell. Like "will save or you all get teleported into the sun or the negative energy plane" every encounter type good.
For some of the bad guys, the caster will be either eating (saving against) his own wish or eating like-in-kind. It's a bad idea to get into a wish duel. ;)
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So my WotR players...well, player to be honest...is planning for the future. Level 20 to be exact, but his planning starts at level 16-ish.
He wants to create a Staff of Wish.
It will take all 10 charges to cast the Wish spell.
By the formula this will cost ~131k gp. His math, and I trust his mathing ability.
As a 'Wrath of the Righteous' player, I can't believe a player would even dream of having the 4+ months of downtime in this campaign: We've had maybe 9 weeks of downtime total as of hitting level 15 (about a week after the first module, a month after the 2nd and 3rd, and we just finished the 4th module and don't expect to have any real down time before starting #5).
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*Glances in* By the way, for 330k, you could buy approximately 86 Scrolls of Wish. Those would broadly be usable faster and easier than a staff that needs recharging.You forgot material components. You would only get about 11 scrolls for that much.
The bigger issue is that the player will be using the Arcane Bloodline capstone. IIRC there is even an item which lets you get it 4 levels earlier by advancing your bloodline by 4 levels. This means 4 levels of wish spam. And Wish is really, really good as a combat spell. Like "will save or you all get teleported into the sun or the negative energy plane" every encounter type good.
Do you have any more information about said item?
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So my WotR players...well, player to be honest...is planning for the future. Level 20 to be exact, but his planning starts at level 16-ish.
He wants to create a Staff of Wish.
It will take all 10 charges to cast the Wish spell.
By the formula this will cost ~131k gp. His math, and I trust his mathing ability.
As a 'Wrath of the Righteous' player, I can't believe a player would even dream of having the 4+ months of downtime in this campaign: We've had maybe 9 weeks of downtime total as of hitting level 15 (about a week after the first module, a month after the 2nd and 3rd, and we just finished the 4th module and don't expect to have any real down time before starting #5).
Shrug. Different DM, I gave them a near month after book 1, The Queen was not next door, the truth had to travel to her, etc...After book 2 I gave close to the same and have given down time here and there during book 3 also. Book 3 expects there to be some passage of time...but just not too much or other situations advance. They will have downtime again at teh end of book 3, and during book 4 I see how this will take some time. It is book 5 and 6 that the story starts to ramp up quickly to the final confrontations.
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It's the Robe of Arcane Heritage, which I think appears in both Ultimate Equipment and the Advanced Player's Guide. It flat-out gives a +4 to your level for both the strength of your powers and determining which you have access to (most effects don't give you early access), at a cost of 16,000 GP. It's a Body Slot item, too, so probably not much competition.
Very interesting. I will need to look it up.
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252 Wishes per day is plainly broken, but remains so if you charge him 300,000gp for the staff or even 3,000,000gp. The problem seems to be the capstone power, not the gp cost of the staff.By rough calculations he can do this 12 times through his spell slots.
21 mythic surges
1 mythic surge and an hour rest he will get all his slots back.
Making the staff cost more will defer the staff until he can afford it.
Again. The power level is not the issue, at least not when I thought to worst was spared until level 20, which will just be the last half of the last book.
Now with this robe...it is even more important to drive the cost up ifI allow it as a craftable, purchasable item. Now I am most assured that I will make him have to make it a legendary item.
Sticking to the required time-to-craft, and pointing out fragile a staff is, might solve that problem altogether.
Unless they get into demiplane shenanigans ...
Curiosity compels: what is he planning to do with the stick o' wishin'? Frankly I'd ask him that upfront. If the group simply wants a fast way to ramp up their ability scores, let 'em. If he wants Ultimate Cosmic Power, then you might want to bone up on the "wishcraft" articles from Legacy of Fire.
We didn't get into specifics about that part yet, though I do believe that the idea is to fund a caster of the appropriate level to actually create it.
Seriously? And where, exactly, are they going to find this 17th level wizard, and why doesn't said NPC have something better to do then spend 4 months of their life making an ultra-power staff for some random peon?
Material component costs for magic items are not included in the calculations for crafting time.Sticking to the required time-to-craft, and pointing out fragile a staff is, might solve that problem altogether.
Unless they get into demiplane shenanigans ...
Curiosity compels: what is he planning to do with the stick o' wishin'? Frankly I'd ask him that upfront. If the group simply wants a fast way to ramp up their ability scores, let 'em. If he wants Ultimate Cosmic Power, then you might want to bone up on the "wishcraft" articles from Legacy of Fire.
Base Price/1000 is Base Price/1000. Doesn't matter where the base price comes from.
We didn't get into specifics about that part yet, though I do believe that the idea is to fund a caster of the appropriate level to actually create it.Seriously? And where, exactly, are they going to find this 17th level wizard, and why don't they have something better to do then spend 4 months of their life making an ultra-power staff for some random peon?
That makes for an interesting side quest if they'd planned for it earlier on.
"Heya Bob the Archmage, the Ginormous Crusade of Demon Stomping needs your help to craft a staff of Wish that can be used once every ten-day. What say you?"
" Uhhh ... well, lemme see ... bring me five 25 carat diamonds to install in the staff on completion plus a modest deposit of 7000 gp up front, I'll have it ready for you in five months."
That makes for an interesting side quest if they'd planned for it earlier on.
Seriously? And where, exactly, are they going to find this 17th level wizard, and why don't they have something better to do then spend 4 months of their life making an ultra-power staff for some random peon?
Maybe they can go through RotR first and when they get to the end just ask Karzoug nicely.
If you're going to let him have it anyway, why quibble about cost? Either the price tag will be more than he can afford, which is basically saying he can't have it, or he can afford it, and he can recoup the cost in any number of creative ways with effectively infinite wishes.
-Take over the healthcare industry: Charge 5kgp for resurrection services (drive the church out of business!)
-Take over the transportation industry: Charge a reasonable rate for instant shipping of either people or goods.
-Take over the education industry: Give everyone who's willing to pay for it +5 to all mental stats.
And that's just using the safe wish abilities.
The problem is the mythic archmage ability, not the staff itself. Without that, the staff is not a big deal, other than being Sunder (etc) bait.
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We didn't get into specifics about that part yet, though I do believe that the idea is to fund a caster of the appropriate level to actually create it.Seriously? And where, exactly, are they going to find this 17th level wizard, and why doesn't said NPC have something better to do then spend 4 months of their life making an ultra-power staff for some random peon?
Well "some random peon" will be a 16th level caster, who has tapped into a special power that grants him a multitude of abilities that the 17th level caster would be amazed at. All the while the "random peon" is a favored "peon" of the Queen of Mendev and is leading the charge in the latest crusade against the demons in the Worldwound, and has been making serious gains in the fight.
Base Price/1000 is Base Price/1000. Doesn't matter where the base price comes from.Material component costs for magic items are not included in the calculations for crafting time.Sticking to the required time-to-craft, and pointing out fragile a staff is, might solve that problem altogether.
Unless they get into demiplane shenanigans ...
Curiosity compels: what is he planning to do with the stick o' wishin'? Frankly I'd ask him that upfront. If the group simply wants a fast way to ramp up their ability scores, let 'em. If he wants Ultimate Cosmic Power, then you might want to bone up on the "wishcraft" articles from Legacy of Fire.
Incorrect.
In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.Base price does not include material components.
Well, well. Learn something new every day. I stand corrected. :)
As far as this applies to the OP, I'd stick to something along these lines:
"Archmage Bob of Mendev can do as you ask in a week. However, to complete the staff he needs you to provide 5 25,000 gp diamonds plus (6### gp for his costs and labor). Without them he cannot complete the staff."
Well "some random peon" will be a 16th level caster, who has tapped into a special power that grants him a multitude of abilities that the 17th level caster would be amazed at. All the while the "random peon" is a favored "peon" of the Queen of Mendev and is leading the charge in the latest crusade against the demons in the Worldwound, and has been making serious gains in the fight.
But they don't start there. They start as level 1 peons. Granted, they get their mythic power-up at the end of book 1, but if the player is trying to save time by doing this in parallel, then waiting until level 16 to make the request isn't going to accomplish that.
There's also the question of why a 17th level wizard has 1/3 of a year to kill instead of participating in the effort directly. With access to 9th level spells, they could and should be altering the course of events. Said NPC should be dealing with the Worldwound themselves and not taking a vacation to make magic items for someone else.
I don't think your player has thought this through. The reason why the PC's are the ones that are dealing with world-ending threats is because suitably high level NPC's aren't available. They either don't exist, or are somewhere else, occupied with some other world-ending threat.
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Well "some random peon" will be a 16th level caster, who has tapped into a special power that grants him a multitude of abilities that the 17th level caster would be amazed at. All the while the "random peon" is a favored "peon" of the Queen of Mendev and is leading the charge in the latest crusade against the demons in the Worldwound, and has been making serious gains in the fight.But they don't start there. They start as level 1 peons. Granted, they get their mythic power-up at the end of book 1, but if the player is trying to save time by doing this in parallel, then waiting until level 16 to make the request isn't going to accomplish that.
There's also the question of why a 17th level wizard has 1/3 of a year to kill instead of participating in the effort directly. With access to 9th level spells, they could and should be altering the course of events. Said NPC should be dealing with the Worldwound themselves and not taking a vacation to make magic items for someone else.
I don't think your player has thought this through. The reason why the PC's are the ones that are dealing with world-ending threats is because suitably high level NPC's aren't available. They either don't exist, or are somewhere else, occupied with some other world-ending threat.
The biggest part of what you are getting wrong is that because the PC was 1st level at one time he should be looked upon like he is 1st level later. Let's be real. Said 16th level sorcerer PC with 7 tiers of Mythic Power minimum is more powerful than 17th level wizard. So I doubt that the 17th level Wiz will look down upon the 16th level 7 tier Sorcerer.
We are at the end of book 3. While not directly stated I think if you look through the thread you would find that the PCs are not at the beginning of the AP, they are much further along.
The answer as to "why" has already been answered. The Queen of Mendev requests it. These are the Heroes of Kenabres. This is the party that is on the front line of the most dangerous missions. Next is a trip to the Abyss. Previously they saved Kenabres, next she sent them to Drezen to liberate it and recover an artifact to keep it secure again. They have done that and stayed to be the main force to slowly retake the Wounded Lands, dealing crippling blow after crippling blow to the demon forces.
If they request something like this as a favor from the queen, which they will thoroughly pay the costs for, I am seeing little reason to to have the Queen deny them.
Maybe in your game she would. That's cool. But don't be the guy that will try and tell us that we are playing it wrong. Your definition of BADWRONGFUN holds no water here.
All I wanted was people to give advice as to how much they would charge for such a staff. I prefer you stick on topic.
If you wish to hold a different conversation about all this start a new thread, I will happily come in and politely discuss things with you.