Ive been going from thread to thread the last few days trying to work out a build ive had in mind, its been changing and refining over the course of the past few days thanks to suggestions, possessive and negative feedback and through some very helpful ideas. The build will be Half Elf Paladin. The archetype has not been chosen but has been narrowed down to either "Shining knight" or "Oath of vengeance".The focus of this characters skills will be diplomacy as they are the party face. The other skill will be Perception.
Half elf alternate racial traits chosen: Dual minded +2 will, Blended view +60ft dark vision.
Stats are thus far:
str: 18 (16+ racial)
dex: 12
Con: 14
int: 10 (as to not lose the already dismal amount of skill points)
Wis: 7
Cha: 15
Bonuses to stats will be added in order: Cha, str, str, str, str.
Traits: Dim Seer+ 2 perception in dim light and is now a class skill.
Magical knack: +2 caster level but no higher than current hit dice.
Combat style will include One handed, two handed and mounted.
Equipment should be: Heavy armor, pole-arm (Guisarme or bardiche), Longsword and shield. Weapon choices are picked for "Knightly ascetic" and usefulness.
Feats selected so far (none are written in stone):
Power attack
Quick Draw
Furious Focus
Weapon Focus: (pole-arm of choice)
Extra Lay On Hands
Mounted Combat
Ride-By Attack
Improved Shield Bash
Spirited Charge
Critical Focus
Feats also considered are:
Fey foundling
More Extra lay on hands
Big game hunter
Shield focus
Shield Brace
Is this build optimal and still able to use these weapons effectively? Can it be done better? The table power we are looking at is an 18str ranger, 18int wizard and twf rogue.
How about having the ability to summon creatures far, far above your own CR?
Step 1: Be a Paladin.
Step 2: Wear Bracers of Celestial Intervention.
Step 3: Convert 9 Smite Evil uses into Summon Monster IX and summon an Astral Deva as a Standard Action.
Step 4: Profit.
A Paladin with Oath of Vengeance can convert 2 uses of Lay on Hands into one use of Smite Evil. If we are ignoring WBL restrictions, our Paladin can cast a 9th level spell as a standard action at level 7 (16 Charisma, Extra Lay on Hands feat at 3rd, 5th and 7th level = 12 Lay on Hands per day or 6 Smite Evil per day, plus 3 Smite Evil per day from Class levels).
Note, this is PFS legal too.
Of course, the build doesn't really come online until you get the bracers, but you're still a Paladin until that point.
JDLPF wrote: How about having the ability to summon creatures far, far above your own CR?
Step 1: Be a Paladin.
Step 2: Wear Bracers of Celestial Intervention.
Step 3: Convert 9 Smite Evil uses into Summon Monster IX and summon an Astral Deva as a Standard Action.
Step 4: Profit.
A Paladin with Oath of Vengeance can convert 2 uses of Lay on Hands into one use of Smite Evil. If we are ignoring WBL restrictions, our Paladin can cast a 9th level spell as a standard action at level 7 (16 Charisma, Extra Lay on Hands feat at 3rd, 5th and 7th level = 12 Lay on Hands per day or 6 Smite Evil per day, plus 3 Smite Evil per day from Class levels).
Note, this is PFS legal too.
Of course, the build doesn't really come online until you get the bracers, but you're still a Paladin until that point.
This sounds neat and all dont get me wrong but....its not really what I was asking. I Already know WHAT i want to play. I have concept down to a T. Im just trying to build it. Its a nice build and i might save it for later but its really not what I want or what im looking for right now.
Make the shield thorwing so it can be drop as a free action.
Spend 1500 on Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid and use a fauchard.
Grandlounge wrote: Make the shield thorwing so it can be drop as a free action.
Spend 1500 on Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid and use a fauchard.
Noted. Ill make a point to do that. I can have the opalscent white pyramid implanted once I have the means to.
Anything else to say about the feats or build itself? Anything I should note?
I have never needed Furious Focus.
Fey foundling is a strong choice but it is used by soooo many palidines.
Shield Brace is good if you use a darkwood or mithral shield heavy shield.
If you're not TWF you can skip improved shield bash. Quickdraw and gauntlets mean you always have a weapon so ne need to shield bash.
Grandlounge wrote: I have never needed Furious Focus.
Fey foundling is a strong choice but it is used by soooo many palidines.
Shield Brace is good if you use a darkwood or mithral shield heavy shield.
If you're not TWF you can skip improved shield bash. Quickdraw and gauntlets mean you always have a weapon so ne need to shield bash.
Ok, so drop drop shield bash and furious focus. From what i can tell it seems you suggest to maybe add sheild focus and shield brace (as i need one for the other.) How is the rest of the build? Solid enough? Think ill keep up with the party? I was thinking of going with the mount rather than the weapon.
Grandlounge wrote: I have never needed Furious Focus.
Fey foundling is a strong choice but it is used by soooo many palidines.
Shield Brace is good if you use a darkwood or mithral shield heavy shield.
If you're not TWF you can skip improved shield bash. Quickdraw and gauntlets mean you always have a weapon so ne need to shield bash.
I also take it that the gauntlets to which you refer are the gauntlets of the weaponmaster?
gauntlets are just the things your armor comes with that lets you make lethal attacks.
Chess Pwn wrote: gauntlets are just the things your armor comes with that lets you make lethal attacks. Got it. Though, googling under the assumption that he was referring to some kind of neat magic item did help me find that overpriced yet extremely cool gauntlets of the weaponmaster and frankly id like to use them on this build if I can ever realistically afford them.
Oath of vengeance is far better DPR build than shining knight.
Drop int to 7 and pick up cunning feat, it gives you +1 skill point per level.
Drop the longsword and shield and related feats, quickdraw, sheild bash. Unless going for shield brace and shield brace keeps your weapon two handed, then go for that.
Greater mercy is a great feat for paladins, adding 1d6 healing to your LOH.
Chess Pwn wrote: Oath of vengeance is far better DPR build than shining knight.
Drop int to 7 and pick up cunning feat, it gives you +1 skill point per level.
Drop the longsword and shield and related feats, quickdraw, sheild bash. Unless going for shield brace and shield brace keeps your weapon two handed, then go for that.
Greater mercy is a great feat for paladins, adding 1d6 healing to your LOH.
Oath of vengeance is great but doesnt help much with the mounted area hence why shining knight is even listed as an option. Im not sure on the two because i havnt seen a convincing argument yet or if the 3 feats will be enough for a mount. Cunning isnt a real feat and wont help me as its 3rd party and im not aloud third party feats, guess I should have mentioned that. Im not dropping anymore weapons,it doesnt matter what thread you post on of mine or how many times you tell me to, im not doing it. Shield focus goes into shield brace and shield brace allows the use of polearms with two weapons. Greater mercy is a decent idea but I dont have reasonable room for it that I know of.
Are you planning on multi-classing? If not, Magical Knack is a wasted trait, since your caster level will be the same as your hit dice already.
cunning is a real feat and is 1st party. It's from villain's codex and gives +1 skill point per level.
oath of vengeance still gets a mount, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.
Oath of vengeance gets rid of your channel energy and turns them into smites. Smite is what makes a paladin amazing, and you can smite anything you fight with it.
Shining knight doesn't really get anything great, especially if it's blocking you from oath of vengeance.
well furious focus and shield bash can be swapped for cunning and greater mercy. You can get rid of weapon focus and extra lay on hands for shield focus and shield brace. Weapon focus isn't needed cause you're oath of vengeance and can smite everything, and extra lay on hands isn't that needed since you get lots of lay on hands and since you're smiting everything and having a shield you get amazing AC and kill them really fast to take less damage. Get bracers of the merciful knight to be 4 levels higher for your lay on hands and you get lots more per day and they are all better at healing you.
and can you explain what you think you're going to be doing swapping weapons? Like your paladin can just carry a longsword to have on hand for knightly looks, but there's no reason to be worrying about it at all. When you have a +5 guisarme and a masterwork longsword you're going to realize that you have no need of the longsword. If you accept that you have no reason to use your sword, then you can drop quickdraw which you really aren't using for a better feat.
Kemuri Kunoichi wrote: Are you planning on multi-classing? If not, Magical Knack is a wasted trait, since your caster level will be the same as your hit dice already. paladin's caster level isn't full HD, it's HD-3. so magical knack makes them almost full
Kemuri Kunoichi wrote: Are you planning on multi-classing? If not, Magical Knack is a wasted trait, since your caster level will be the same as your hit dice already. What chess said.
Chess Pwn wrote: cunning is a real feat and is 1st party. It's from villain's codex and gives +1 skill point per level.
oath of vengeance still gets a mount, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.
Oath of vengeance gets rid of your channel energy and turns them into smites. Smite is what makes a paladin amazing, and you can smite anything you fight with it.
Shining knight doesn't really get anything great, especially if it's blocking you from oath of vengeance.
well furious focus and shield bash can be swapped for cunning and greater mercy. You can get rid of weapon focus and extra lay on hands for shield focus and shield brace. Weapon focus isn't needed cause you're oath of vengeance and can smite everything, and extra lay on hands isn't that needed since you get lots of lay on hands and since you're smiting everything and having a shield you get amazing AC and kill them really fast to take less damage. Get bracers of the merciful knight to be 4 levels higher for your lay on hands and you get lots more per day and they are all better at healing you.
and can you explain what you think you're going to be doing swapping weapons? Like your paladin can just carry a longsword to have on hand for knightly looks, but there's no reason to be worrying about it at all. When you have a +5 guisarme and a masterwork longsword you're going to realize that you have no need of the longsword. If you accept that you have no reason to use your sword, then you can drop quickdraw which you really aren't using for a better feat.
I don't own villain codes and can't find anything in line about the book other than that it exists. Can you provide a link to the feat? Otherwise it may as well be third party if I can't provide my group or gm with proof of its existence and its source.
Oath of vengeance is indeed very powerful but what draws me to the shining knight is the skilled rider ability: "At 3rd level, a shining knight does not take any penalty to her Ride skill due to her armor check penalty. In addition, any mount she is riding gains the benefit of her divine grace class feature, adding her Charisma bonus (if any) to its saving throws.
This ability replaces divine health."
This could be problematic otherwise as heavy armor, even when made mithral will still be quite heavy.
The fear swapping is noted, however I can't drop weapon focus as I have the critical feats that need it as a prerequisite.
My thoughts on the longsword are clear. If there were a decent blunt or pierce pole-arm of take it to have the ability to swap to deal with weapon type DR though I can't think of one hence why my pole-arm slashes but that was one reason for the second weapon. The long sword is my back up weapon because A) my pole-arm may be sundered,stolen, dropped, lost, or thrown if I told a 1 at my table (this happens so much it's become a funny plague of people fumbling on attacks and throwing their weapons.) I know the locked gauntlet exists but let me further explain. B) it's a second weapon to be enchanted. This could be pricy yes, though knowing my party we will most likely have someone who can make weapons like always to reduce the price. The second array of enchantment I could find useful as their are just so many good enchantment in the game and you can't simply have them all in one weapon. And C) up close and personal combat. My pole-arm doesn't help much if I'm cornered or enemy is directly in front of me. Why hit with my 1d2 gauntlet of I can simply quick draw my 1d8 longsword?
Cunning is not online yet nothing can be done about that sorry. If I had to giuess it will go up soon. A perfect back up weapon for you would be a Lucerne hammer with silver sheen. Spiked gauntlet are d4 do armor spikes d6 which are both option and you don't need to drop your reach weapon. The bigger lose is not being able to two hand the weapons.
A morningstar or a planson are your best non-reach weapons. As they cover your missing damage types.
Grandlounge wrote: Cunning is not online yet nothing can be done about that sorry. If I had to giuess it will go up soon. A perfect back up weapon for you would be a Lucerne hammer with silver sheen. Spiked gauntlet are d4 do armor spikes d6 which are both option and you don't need to drop your reach weapon. The bigger lose is not being able to two hand the weapons.
A morningstar or a planson are your best non-reach weapons. As they cover your missing damage types.
If that's the case maybe I'll add armor spikes and a Lucerne hammer as my reach weapon. I'd rather keep my longsword over the morning star for it's higher chance to crit. The luscern is for sure weaker due to its flat x2 crit but it for sure fixes my issue with the weapon types. I suppose I could go oath of vengeance over shining knight and just deal with the armor check penalty, I suppose I could buy the war saddle at some point to try and lessen the blow of my armor check penalty.
For ride you only need to get to a 9. Even in armor that's not that hard.
Grandlounge wrote: For ride you only need to get to a 9. Even in armor that's not that hard. Why only 9? There are checks on the table for ride up to 20, are there not?
Yep but you really only need the first 3 others are ok. Leap does not come up that often. The others are ok but rarely necessary.
weapon stuff
Ignore if you have made your decission.
Fauchard morningstar is the better weapon better combo here.
Lucerne hammer long sword is worse for a couple reasons. Lucerne hammer is worse then the fauchard because of crit range and it is b or p and the morning star is b and p.
The best way to decide what to use would be what is your primary combat style. What knightly combat style was the character first trained in was he a pike man, heavy infantry, cavalier, etc. What is his go to combat style.
That will be where you want the best weapon and that is what you will want to upgrade first. I believe pole arms were more common but I'm no made it expert.
If that happens to be sword and board that fine too.
I'm sorry, I didn't see any feats listed that require weapon focus.
If someone is right next to you you 5ft step and then attack them, and don't move into corners. Things shouldn't last more than 2 turns, meaning they can't force you back much.
If your sword is your backup for main weapon getting sundered or disarmed then you don't need quickdraw cause it's not something that should be happening often.
If you play with critical fumbles don't play melee, it's not worth getting worse at your deal as you level up.
Unless you're planning on doing trick riding you don't need that high of a ride check. Get a nice saddle, put a few ranks into it, and you can ride just fine in full plate.
Grandlounge wrote: Yep but you really only need the first 3 others are ok. Leap does not come up that often. The others are ok but rarely necessary.
weapon stuff
Ignore if you have made your decission.
Fauchard morningstar is the better weapon better combo here.
Lucerne hammer long sword is worse for a couple reasons. Lucerne hammer is worse then the fauchard because of crit range and it is b or p and the morning star is b and p.
The best way to decide what to use would be what is your primary combat style. What knightly combat style was the character first trained in was he a pike man, heavy infantry, cavalier, etc. What is his go to combat style.
That will be where you want the best weapon and that is what you will want to upgrade first. I believe pole arms were more common but I'm no made it expert.
If that happens to be sword and board that fine too.
The original idea for the character was sword and boared but I worried about damage output. As a paly, she isn't able to begin using a mount until level 5 unless it's just a regular ol' horse or something so two pole-arms made sense to be her later trained weapon. She began as a noble, the kings daughter and thus sword training was mandatory. Both a sport and means of self defence should the castle be assaulted and its guards slain. She was trained first with a rapier for fencing, then a longsword, this sparked her curiosity toward knights and mounted combat, these growing until she found herself training to become one. So the original concept has the pole-arm as a back up weapon. Though I do have most of the characters back story written up on my pc.
ViConstantine wrote: Chess Pwn wrote: I'm sorry, I didn't see any feats listed that require weapon focus.
If someone is right next to you you 5ft step and then attack them, and don't move into corners. Things shouldn't last more than 2 turns, meaning they can't force you back much.
If your sword is your backup for main weapon getting sundered or disarmed then you don't need quickdraw cause it's not something that should be happening often.
If you play with critical fumbles don't play melee, it's not worth getting worse at your deal as you level up.
Unless you're planning on doing trick riding you don't need that high of a ride check. Get a nice saddle, put a few ranks into it, and you can ride just fine in full plate.
It's fine.
Taking 5 foot steps won't help in cramped dungeons and isn't possible in difficult terrains without a feat. If quick draw stops being helpful I can always retrain it.
What do you mean "If you play with critical fumbles"? Do you not? Fumbling on a 1 isn't an optional rule is it? it's been part of tabletops like d&d and pathfinder for as long as I can remember. There is no reason to "not play" a class or a type of character because you risk a natural 1, thats just silly, unless you just suck so bad at a game that you think a critical fumble will absolutely destroy you. Typically in our games, the threat of one just keeps people from trying incredibly dumb ideas.
The ride check mention is noted.
ViConstantine wrote: ViConstantine wrote: Chess Pwn wrote: I'm sorry, I didn't see any feats listed that require weapon focus.
If someone is right next to you you 5ft step and then attack them, and don't move into corners. Things shouldn't last more than 2 turns, meaning they can't force you back much.
If your sword is your backup for main weapon getting sundered or disarmed then you don't need quickdraw cause it's not something that should be happening often.
If you play with critical fumbles don't play melee, it's not worth getting worse at your deal as you level up.
Unless you're planning on doing trick riding you don't need that high of a ride check. Get a nice saddle, put a few ranks into it, and you can ride just fine in full plate.
It's fine.
Taking 5 foot steps won't help in cramped dungeons and isn't possible in difficult terrains without a feat. If quick draw stops being helpful I can always retrain it.
What do you mean "If you play with critical fumbles"? Do you not? Fumbling on a 1 isn't an optional rule is it? it's been part of tabletops like d&d and pathfinder for as long as I can remember. There is no reason to "not play" a class or a type of character because you risk a natural 1, thats just silly, unless you just suck so bad at a game that you think a critical fumble will absolutely destroy you. Typically in our games, the threat of one just keeps people from trying incredibly dumb ideas.
The ride check mention is noted. A nat one is just an auto-miss. Nothing more. It's maybe been a part of your houserules for pathfinder and D&D for as long as you can remember, but it's never been a Pathfinder rule. No dropping weapons, breaking weapons, attacking self or allies, etc. Reason is, as martial go up rolling more dice is good for them, but more dice means more nat 1's which can make the super expert archer looking like a novice cause he's dropping his bow every other round.
I think you'd be surprised at how well the 5ft step does in dungeons. I play a lot of reach characters in PFS (at least 5, with 2 of them being lv12 and one lv10), and some of those missions are in "tight dungeons", they haven't had any real problems.
Yes difficult terrain stops 5ft steps, but is it something that happens often? for the vast majority of time there's clear terrain you can use, and if it's difficult then you're for sure getting an AoO as they close in on you and you should ready and attack for when they are in range, that 2 attack to their 1, then your turn you move away and ready again, they get a second attack but then you'll get 2 more before they can hit you. So you're always 2 hits up over them, and since you're a smite all day paladin your hits HURT.
Chess Pwn wrote: ViConstantine wrote: ViConstantine wrote: Chess Pwn wrote: I'm sorry, I didn't see any feats listed that require weapon focus.
If someone is right next to you you 5ft step and then attack them, and don't move into corners. Things shouldn't last more than 2 turns, meaning they can't force you back much.
If your sword is your backup for main weapon getting sundered or disarmed then you don't need quickdraw cause it's not something that should be happening often.
If you play with critical fumbles don't play melee, it's not worth getting worse at your deal as you level up.
Unless you're planning on doing trick
riding you don't need that high of a ride check. Get a nice saddle, put a few ranks into it, and you can ride just fine in full plate.
It's fine.
Taking 5 foot steps won't help in cramped dungeons and isn't possible in difficult terrains without a feat. If quick draw stops being helpful I can always retrain it.
What do you mean "If you play with critical fumbles"? Do you not? Fumbling on a 1 isn't an optional rule is it? it's been part of tabletops like d&d and pathfinder for as long as I can remember. There is no reason to "not play" a class or a type of character because you risk a natural 1, thats just silly, unless you just suck so bad at a game that you think a critical fumble will absolutely destroy you. Typically in our games, the threat of one just keeps people from trying incredibly dumb ideas.
The ride check mention is noted. A nat one is just an auto-miss. Nothing more. It's maybe been a part of your houserules for pathfinder and D&D for as long as you can remember, but it's never been a Pathfinder rule. No dropping weapons, breaking weapons, attacking self or allies, etc. Reason is, as martial go up rolling more dice is good for them, but more dice means more nat 1's which can make the super expert archer looking like a novice cause he's dropping his bow every... This is starting to make me question, is there a reason you hate back up weapons? Does nothing ever happen to your primary weapon in any campaign you have played in? I don't see a single good reason to stop using one so I'm not going to. Plain and simple. It doesn't hurt my build or my date out out to have a second weapon "Just in case." So I'm keeping it.
I would second this with 2 caveats. I have lot of reach characters and a couple of mounted ones.
Caveat one, I don't have any medium mounted reach characters. So, I cannot comment on a large horse 5ft stepping in a tight dungeon.
Caveat 2, if you are no longer threatening a creature but have been doing crazy smite damage they may try and find a new target so decide when it is best to use chess pwn's advice.
14 character I have never lost a weapon there have been afew attempts to destroy them but I was ready for rust monsters or my weapon was strong enough to make it through the sunder attempts.
That said I carry 4+ weapons to cover metal DR, damage type DR, and range, on melee charaters when I'm really pressed. Only once did I enchant a second weapon and that was because I was hitting some DR magic and silver so it was just a +1. But, now the main weapon on that charcter is a +3 adamantine weapon so it was a wasted 1000gp (though it got me through a tough session so maybe it should be call a sunk cost).
Extra weapons are good to have. They can save you at low levels but, it is hard to make that a focus of a build because of the way wealth by level works and feats are designed.
Having a weapon on hand, sure nothing wrong with that. Thinking of spending feats and money on it, nope. So like I said, have the sword on hand for cool looks, but get rid of any feats for it. If it's a just in case maybe might need a backup sometime weapon, then you shouldn't be investing feat and money into something you'll likely never use.
But no, magic weapons have enough hardness and HP that they don't break, smiting paladins have great CMD so they don't get sundered, critical fumbles aren't real so you're not going to accidentally drop it. And as you make it magic it's going to be better than anything else, and as a smiting paladin you remove even the 1 reason for alternate weapons since your smite bypasses all DR the enemy has. DR bludgeoning? smite and slash it. DR -, smite and slash, DR epic, smite and slash.
When your reach is at +3 to hit over your longsword and does better damage there's no point in swapping to longsword, no point in swapping weapons means no point in quickdraw, no point in quickdraw means you can take a better feat.
Typically backup weapons should be the same type of weapon, so that way all your feats still apply to it, and you don't have to change your way of fighting to accomodate the change of weapon. The way I handled my character is that she still carries her original weapons even after she got magical versions of them, so if she is ever disarmed, she can quickdraw one of her backups and still has all her feats and weapon training (she's a fighter) for them. You should consider this.
These reasoning are fairly sound but I feel I should start with this. I will NOT be sitting like mad. I've played with the two gms I'm currently swapping between for years and I can tell you with complete certainty, most of the time the things we fight are NOT evil. My gms like moral grey areas so those in the party with morality bonds must make tough choices. In one scenario there were two mercenary groups fighting. One were more jonerable and the other more shifty and cautious. We killed the shifty ones and got the others to give us a favor. Both groups though were chaotic neutral.
The other note, if I were to be stuck choosing between the pole-arm and the longsword I'd probably pick the longest and take the lunge feat. Not because it's strictly a better weapon but because it's iconic and I find it more fun. If there are no other notes on the build itself then I think it's finished. Full plate, longsword, heavy steel shield, most likely a luscern or the exotic weapon mentioned before. Though I'm tempted to drop a weapon of I must eventually and exchange quick draw for the feat that allows a weapon to change its damage type. I'll use the two weapons until I find one to be useless then act accordingly. Thanks to all who have ideas and their time.
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