When the wielder strikes a creature that is frightened, shaken, or panicked with a cruel weapon, that creature becomes sickened for 1 round.
When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent, which suffers the effects of both the weapon attack and the special ability. For example, a paladin who strikes an undead opponent with her conductive greatsword can expend two uses of her lay on hands ability (a supernatural melee touch attack) to deal both greatsword damage and damage from one use of lay on hands.
The antipaladin has an ability called touch of corruption (anti-lay on hands) that deals damage to living creatures. They can transfer status effects (aka cruelties aka anti-mercies) to creatures when using touch of corruption.
Whenever the antipaladin uses touch of corruption to deal damage to one target, the target also receives the additional effect from one of the cruelties possessed by the antipaladin. The target receives a Fortitude save to avoid this cruelty.
THE QUESTION: If an antipaladin strikes a shaken opponent with a cruel conductive weapon and channels touch of corruption through the weapon, is the creature sickened while it rolls its fortitude save to avoid the antipaladin's cruelty? (Does the creature receive a -2 penalty to its fortitude save from sickened, total -4 with shaken included?)
The effect resolves simultaneously, with the sickened condition being applied instantly upon being struck. So I would assume that it is, indeed, sickened when the Fortitude save needs to be made, since that's being resolved at the same time and uses any bonuses or penalties in that instant (including sickened).
So in general do effects triggered by the same event resolve simultaneously in pathfinder?
I can't show any rules up because there aren't any rules for the order of operations for resolving effects.
What I can say is that this is the impression I get, and since one effect requires no save and simply occurs, it seems like it should be affecting the Fortitude saves since the penalty exists at the same time as a save is made. This is entirely on GM fiat, however, but I would make this argument myself and how I would run it in-game.
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I'm playing a similar antipaladin build currently.
Assuming the creature is already shaken (say from Power Attack and Cornugon Smash) and you are using Hurtful to get an extra attack. On that attack, the creature would count as shaken. However, the rider from Cruel (sickened) doesn't apply until after the entire attack is resolved. This includes other riders that might be applied at the same time, including using Conductive to apply a Cruelty.
So, if you want to get the benefits of the creature being shaken and sickened before trying to apply your cruelty then you'll want to wait until a 3rd attack to try to apply it.
Think of it this way, both the effect of Cruel and the effect from Conductive are triggered and resolved at the same time. In order for either to apply to the other the other effect would need to have already been resolved.
[both effects] are triggered and resolved at the same time. In order for either to apply to the other the other effect would need to have already been resolved.
This is how I am going to run simultaneous effects from now on, since there seems to be no clear way it works, and this is the simplest way to do so. It could easily get overcomplicated otherwise. Imagine resolving five simultaneous effects that all affected each other. Does anyone have a good reason to disagree with the quote above?
I say let the person who used the ability choose how the chain resolves.
When the wielder strikes
When the wielder makes a successful attack
Whenever the antipaladin uses touch of corruption to deal damage to one target,
So, not actually something that needs to be debated. Cruel happens when you hit. Before you deal damage. Cruelty happens if you deal damage with touch of corruption.
Hit, then cruel, then weapon damage, then option to expend uses of touch of corruption (if attack was "successful"), then corruption damage, then cruelty (if the target is damaged by corruption).
Pretty sure that isn't how it works. When a successful attack roll is made, the weapon damage roll, cruel, and the touch of corruption damage roll (via conductive) all trigger and resolve simultaneously. Cruelty is then triggered becausr ToC's damage roll was triggered, and cruelty will resolve simultaneously with ToC's damage roll and the other effects. Cruel (sickened) would not happen before the damage roll. It happens at the same time. It wouldnt make sense for an opponent to be sickened from a strike before being struck. According to claxon, simultaneous effects dont influence each other. But thats not pathfinder official to my knowledge. So play it how you want. Kaouse's solution works. He said just remove simultaneous effects and let the player choose the order of resolution.
There's nothing official that clarifies, but I can't see any reason to rule simultaneous effects resolve at the same time and can't influence each other.
As for the order issue:
"When the wielder strikes" is equivalent to "making a successful attack". They language may be different but the two conditions are the same.
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There's nothing official that clarifies, but I can't see any reason to rule simultaneous effects resolve at the same time and can't influence each other.
As for the order issue:
"When the wielder strikes" is equivalent to "making a successful attack". They language may be different but the two conditions are the same.
That's mathematical... 'cause you have to check the condition before the effect take case, if you resolve everythin simultaneously when you check conditions you have to check conditions simultaneously... And when you check the conditon for Cruel Conductive at the same time you check condition of Cruelty then the effect is till not in place... ;)
Okay, so im gonna go step by step and tell me if im wrong.
1. Attack is rolled. Attack is successful.
2. This triggers weapon damage roll, cruel, and the choice to use conductive. Weapon damage roll and cruel are added to what is hereafter known as "the mix." Everything in the mix will eventually resolve simultaneously.
3. You choose to use conductive. This triggers touch of corruption damage roll, which is added to the mix. THIS triggers cruelty save.
4. Creature rolls fortitude save. Cruel hasn't resolved yet so no penalty. Creature fails save, so now cruelty is added to the mix.
5. All effects in the mix now resolve simultaneously, and do not affect each other. The effects include weapon damage roll, touch of corruption damage roll, and cruelty.
Sound right/reasonable?
Okay, so im gonna go step by step and tell me if im wrong.
1. Attack is rolled. Attack is successful.
2. This triggers weapon damage roll, cruel, and the choice to use conductive. Weapon damage roll and cruel are added to what is hereafter known as "the mix." Everything in the mix will eventually resolve simultaneously.
3. You choose to use conductive. This triggers touch of corruption damage roll, which is added to the mix. THIS triggers cruelty save.
4. Creature rolls fortitude save. Cruel hasn't resolved yet so no penalty. Creature fails save, so now cruelty is added to the mix.
5. All effects in the mix now resolve simultaneously, and do not affect each other. The effects include weapon damage roll, touch of corruption damage roll, and cruelty.Sound right/reasonable?
Yep sound reasonable to me... Of course since, halas, there's no rules like in Magic the Gathering to explain the order in which effect are resolved the "simultaneous" is the default choice but this may varies from table to table, a GM can say : "The GM choose the order based on his humor" and you would have no RAW to oppose :p
Okay, so im gonna go step by step and tell me if im wrong.
1. Attack is rolled. Attack is successful.
2. This triggers weapon damage roll, cruel, and the choice to use conductive. Weapon damage roll and cruel are added to what is hereafter known as "the mix." Everything in the mix will eventually resolve simultaneously.
3. You choose to use conductive. This triggers touch of corruption damage roll, which is added to the mix. THIS triggers cruelty save.
4. Creature rolls fortitude save. Cruel hasn't resolved yet so no penalty. Creature fails save, so now cruelty is added to the mix.
5. All effects in the mix now resolve simultaneously, and do not affect each other. The effects include weapon damage roll, touch of corruption damage roll, and cruelty.Sound right/reasonable?
I wouldn't have used the same phrasing as you, but yes that's how I run it.
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Just because you make a choice as a player doesn't mean that it's not all happening at the same time.
The order is:
Hit
Apply damage/cruel(apply sickened)/conductive(apply touch of corruption (including cruelty))
Don't get me wrong, it'd be useful if it worked the other way, but that's not what happens.
I think the main argument here is "are these effects simulatenous".
Those are special exceptions that tell you something happens at those points.
Generally speaking their is no time difference between making a successful attack and dealing damage with that attack, they occur at the same time.
I can also turn the question around to you and ask where are you getting that they aren't simultaneous from?
Neither has good clear support in the rules.
But if the effects of a single attack didn't resolve simultaneously we would need rules explaining how to resolve the effects (which we don't have).
In our case an attack roll results in:
A) Damage being dealt on a successful hit
b) Sickened being caused "When the wielder strikes a creature that is frightened, shaken, or panicked"
C) Conductive activates "When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent, who takes the effects of the weapon attack and the special ability." This means Touch of Corruption is delivered by choosing to expend two uses when a creature is struck with the conductive weapon. And Cruelties are applied "Each cruelty adds an effect to the antipaladin's touch of corruption ability. Whenever the antipaladin uses touch of corruption to deal damage to one target, the target also receives the additional effect from one of the cruelties possessed by the antipaladin.".
So everything happens as a result of a successful hit. There are no additional actions taken. Choices are made, but that doesn't mean it occurs later.
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Default is that damage follows a hit. Two of these specifically do something WHEN you hit. The third WHEN you deal damage.
Then your argument would say that the damage occurs after Cruel and Conductive have taken place, and that the damage from Touch of Corruption would occur after the Cruelty applied by it have resolved. Which doesn't make a bit of sense to me.
My version makes fewer assumption and doesn't violate causality at all.
Because my solution is "none of the stuff arising from this hit affects anything else arising from the same hit". You don't have to worry about which gets applied first when everything is simultaneous, because nothing is first. There is no order of operations or anything.
Your version that you're arguing for is the one that introduces more complicated things that we don't have rules for and you have to worry about how different effects interact with each other.
To review the concensus of the thread, as claxon explains above, pathfinder has no rules for ordering the resolution of effects triggered by the same action, so MOST players assume that these effects resolve simultaneously. Others allow the user of the triggering action to choose order of effect resolutions, but that seems less logical, at least to me.
IF you believe that multiple effects triggered by the same action should be resolved simultaneously, then, as Loengren explains above, these effects cannot affect each other. Conditions are checked before the effects are resolved. Since all effects resolve simultaneously, they cannot be part of the conditions checked, because they haven't resolved yet.
So, as silly as it seems, this would mean that if an attack made a creature immune to ice damage but also dealt 6 ice damage, the creature would still take the ice damage.
I can also turn the question around to you and ask where are you getting that they aren't simultaneous from?Because each one says specifically when it happens. The notion that deciding how much damage you will deal, dealing that damage, and determining wether or not you have dealt damage are all things that happen at the same time and not a series of steps is, in my mind, much more in need of supporting arguments.
Default is that damage follows a hit. Two of these specifically do something WHEN you hit. The third WHEN you deal damage.
Neither the item or talent linked have anything to indicate that they are charging WHEN damage happens. They simply state that things are done BETWEEN two "whens" which clarifies that they are seperate "whens".
I agree that it does not take extra actions (although other similar things do) but that is not the same as saying they occure simultaneously. Walking through 4 squares is all one action, but you still move through them in a particular order.
TLDR: Makes fewer assumptions, matches other examples, logical, obeys language used, does not violate causality.
Well there's no real RAW to tell you wrong on this... The reason why a lot of people are supporters of simultaneousity is because with this solution there's no argument in which order multiple effect that trigger with the same attack activate, exactly what was asked in the OP... ;)
With the simultaneous activation there's less table discrepency...Once again RAW almost all the time nothing indicate what action activate before another when they are triggered by the same attack... I can rule it's Cruelty that trigger first 'cause today is a yellow day for me, if I'm the GM I am right and you can't find a RAW to contradict this (and since I'm the GM I don't have to find a RAW to support me, only players have to) and next session say "it's Cruel, Conductive 'cause it's a yellow day and I've forgotten that on Yellow day it's cruelty that trigger first"... :p
(Don't ask me what a Yellow day is, it's something I come up with :D )
But if it's something you come up with, who else should I ask?
I still disagree, I think things happen when they say they happen. Things that say they happen when you hit happen when you hit, things that happen when you deal damage happen when you deal damage, things that happen when you confirm a crit happen when you confirm a crit.
The idea that making choices that affect the damage you deal, dealing that damage, confirming a crit, etc all happen simultaneously and somehow do not affect eachother seems much more needlessly complicated than "do them when it says".
Narratively it all happens together, but narratively the entire combat round happens together.
Oh well. Thank you for explaining.
If you've got a poisoned weapon when do the poison take place ?
It's written when you "hit" so even before you do the damage... But there's a rule in DR that specifically said that if you have DR and that due to this DR you receive 0 dmg then you're not poisoned...
If we do things in the order you said, when I "hit" the poison take place, then the "damage" then the "DR" and it specifically don't work that way...
That's the same when two things happen at the same time when you "hit"... which one trigger first ? :)
What happen if the creature as a DR ? You can't trigger your action when it "hit" as written 'cause if the DR negate the damage it negates most of the actions that have "to hit" as trigger... So you "hit", then do "DR", then do "damage" then go back in time at the "to hit" point ? :p
Yeah... does it? Only thing I can find is that the poison on your weapon "lasts till" or is "consumed when" the wielder touches it or hits with an attack. You make the initial save when you are "exsposed" to a poison, not when you are "hit" by a poison attack according to poisons
Given that, id say contact poison=save when hit, injury poison=save when damaged, and either way the poison is expended.
Your poison is used, but do nothing... But you can't know that when your poison trigger, you have to wait the end of the damage calcualation to know if the poison do damage... It proves turn are not sequential, you do "to hit", trigger effect that has "to hit", then "damage" but sometimes effect from "to hit" are canceled by effect that cancel "damage"... So back in time to cancel the "to hit" effect etc.
Sometimes effect arce cancelled or modified by effect that if sequentially calculated are modified by things triggered later on in the sequence...And that doesn't answer when two "to hit" effect are triggered (at the same time that is when you hit) ,which one is resolved first ? What if one depend on the other to take effect or is modified by what the other do ? Do you take it in the player way ? roll a dice ? dpend on the GM whim which can be otherwise later on ?
I failed to quote all relevant text. Sorry. I would like to point out that "whenever the antipaladin uses ToC to deal damage" just means as opposed to using it the other way, to heal undead. (You can use it to deal damage, fail to deal damage, and a cruelty would be applied at the same time the damage failed to be dealt. Dealing damage isnt necessary to trigger cruelty. Its triggered by choosing to use ToC to deal damage). If not for this alternate use (healing undead), cruelty probably would have said "when you hit with ToC, X happens." Also, "when you hit, X happens" does not mean that X happens before damage is dealt. X happens at the same time that damage is dealt, since damage is also dealt when you hit, just like X. It seems extremely illogical, to me, that an effect triggered by a hit would occur before damage is dealt. That can't be the intent.
To quote claxon again,
The order is:
Hit
Apply damage/cruel(apply sickened)/conductive(apply touch of corruption (including cruelty))
[Cruel and cruelty] are triggered and resolved at the same time. In order for either to apply to the other the other effect would need to have already been resolved.