Does using a wish / miracle to change a feat seem reasonable?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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I would say so, though I can't for the life of me think of how you would actually word the wish without using metagame concepts. Any ideas?

Silver Crusade

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I'd just use retraining.


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"I wish I'd forget X (e.g. how to hit really hard - Power Attack) and instead learn Y (e.g. how to make my damage spells as damaging as they can be - Maximize Spell)"

Once you've decided to allow Wish/Miracle to do this, I'd allow it to go through with a minimum of GM f$!@ery, so as long as the player makes at least a token effort it should be fine.

Scarab Sages

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Honestly given the retraining rules it seems a waste of a wish but if you want to do it I see no reason to not allow it, honestly I'd be tempted to let a wish completely change your class levels.


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when you say change a feat, do you mean replace it with another, or change how it works?
(English is not my main language and this seem to me to go ether way).

replace one feat with another that you have the requirements seem, as mentioned, sound ok if not a waste of a wish.

change how the feat works would depend on how it changes the feat.

Liberty's Edge

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In Pathfinder a Wish is "I spend 25.000 gp to have X happening immediately".

Retraining a feat costs between 50 to 2.000 gp (including the cost of the trainer) and 5-10 days.

Having a Wish give you the result of spending 2.000 gp and training for 10 days at most seems in line with the other powers of the spell.

If your GM doesn't use the retraining rules the value of this option increases, so I would add extra costs (similar to the extra costs you incur when casting costly spells) when using it in a world without retraining.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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Oh my goodness, no! Wish/miracle are for things like breaking a deal with a deity, turning an undead creature back into their living creature, freeing a trapped soul, bringing back half the universe's population that turned to dust in the "blip," doing serious damage to a deity's power, or even your character becoming a god. Casting this should be a massive plot point in any campaign, not just a "I don't like this one ability on my character sheet, let me trade it out for something else."

Like others have said, use the retaining rules.

Liberty's Edge

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Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

Oh my goodness, no! Wish/miracle are for things like breaking a deal with a deity, turning an undead creature back into their living creature, freeing a trapped soul, bringing back half the universe's population that turned to dust in the "blip," doing serious damage to a deity's power, or even your character becoming a god. Casting this should be a massive plot point in any campaign, not just a "I don't like this one ability on my character sheet, let me trade it out for something else."

Like others have said, use the retaining rules.

That is Wish/Miracle from 1st and 2nd edition AD&D or D&D BECM. In 3.X-Pathfinder it is simply a very powerful 9th-level spell.

Scarab Sages

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Diego Rossi wrote:
Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

Oh my goodness, no! Wish/miracle are for things like breaking a deal with a deity, turning an undead creature back into their living creature, freeing a trapped soul, bringing back half the universe's population that turned to dust in the "blip," doing serious damage to a deity's power, or even your character becoming a god. Casting this should be a massive plot point in any campaign, not just a "I don't like this one ability on my character sheet, let me trade it out for something else."

Like others have said, use the retaining rules.

That is Wish/Miracle from 1st and 2nd edition AD&D or D&D BECM. In 3.X-Pathfinder it is simply a very powerful 9th-level spell.

Unless like me you house rule it more in line with earlier editions, though I do that with a lot of spells like my teleport error tables.

Liberty's Edge

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Senko wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

Oh my goodness, no! Wish/miracle are for things like breaking a deal with a deity, turning an undead creature back into their living creature, freeing a trapped soul, bringing back half the universe's population that turned to dust in the "blip," doing serious damage to a deity's power, or even your character becoming a god. Casting this should be a massive plot point in any campaign, not just a "I don't like this one ability on my character sheet, let me trade it out for something else."

Like others have said, use the retaining rules.

That is Wish/Miracle from 1st and 2nd edition AD&D or D&D BECM. In 3.X-Pathfinder it is simply a very powerful 9th-level spell.
Unless like me you house rule it more in line with earlier editions, though I do that with a lot of spells like my teleport error tables.

Do you use the older editions table with people ending over or under the target point if they miss the teleport?

That will completely change the use of teleport. A small percentage chance to die when you use it reduces drastically its use.

Scarab Sages

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Diego Rossi wrote:
Senko wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

Oh my goodness, no! Wish/miracle are for things like breaking a deal with a deity, turning an undead creature back into their living creature, freeing a trapped soul, bringing back half the universe's population that turned to dust in the "blip," doing serious damage to a deity's power, or even your character becoming a god. Casting this should be a massive plot point in any campaign, not just a "I don't like this one ability on my character sheet, let me trade it out for something else."

Like others have said, use the retaining rules.

That is Wish/Miracle from 1st and 2nd edition AD&D or D&D BECM. In 3.X-Pathfinder it is simply a very powerful 9th-level spell.
Unless like me you house rule it more in line with earlier editions, though I do that with a lot of spells like my teleport error tables.

Do you use the older editions table with people ending over or under the target point if they miss the teleport?

That will completely change the use of teleport. A small percentage chance to die when you use it reduces drastically its use.

Yep I don't like banning it entirely to make travel more of a concern so I make it risky to use by incorporating (and telling the party upfront when we start) those older rules. Its generally worked fine until they get greater teleport its something they use in emergencies because it could kill them but not to just casually hop around. I learnt that lesson with a party who murdered a merchant who'd been paid to deliver a message to them to escape the law enforcements response.


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If you were going to do something like this, Miracle (if you can get it) would give the better value for this, since it doesn't mandate paying tens of thousands of gp unless you make "a very powerful request". It would be a reasonable ruling for Miracle act as a sped-up retraining and only cost the same amount as the retraining -- this way it would still cost something, so you wouldn't want to use it all the time or on a whim, but using it to get your retraining done fast in an emergency would still be reasonable. Alternatively, if you just know you're going to need a feat temporarily, you have an option that is even cheaper in terms of material components (although still expensive in spell slots):
Since you can explicitly "Duplicate any other {non-Cleric} spell of 7th level or lower" without paying ANY material components (unless the duplicated spell needs them), you can use it to duplicate Tactical Adaptation (for temporary Combat Feats, only on the Magus list, at 3rd level) and Paragon Surge (for temporary General Feats, on most spell lists at 3rd level, and on a few spell lists at 4th level, but normally requires you to be a Half-Elf). You have enough spell levels left that you could also request that Extend Spell be applied to these. These each have to give the same feat (and any options thereof) as you used earlier in the day for each one(*), if applicable, but they don't have to give the same feat (or option thereof) as each other. Of course, if you are a Half-Elf or you have the Self-Realization Subdomain of the Liberation or Strength Domains, just cast Paragon Surge as a normal spell or a Domain spell as applicable, and save Miracle for when you need a second temporary Combat Feat at the same time.

(*)If you plan to use temporary feats often and change them up frequently, Emergency Attunement (as an actual feat) is your friend. So is Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shapechanger) (also as an actual feat) if you can somehow fit it and its prerequisites into your build (it would take a particular type of campaign and a particular type of build to make this work out, but if you can get that together, this is awesome).


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zza ni wrote:

when you say change a feat, do you mean replace it with another, or change how it works?

(English is not my main language and this seem to me to go ether way).

replace one feat with another that you have the requirements seem, as mentioned, sound ok if not a waste of a wish.

change how the feat works would depend on how it changes the feat.

I mean replace with another.

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