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My excitement for Bonekeep can not keep itself contained.
Can we see a new floor for this beautiful vacation spot?
Or can we find another spiritual successor to it? (Or maybe just drag Jason down into the writing den, and unleas... I mean ask him nicely to write another great dungeon crawl?)
I know this season is done, but Season 9! SEASON 9 DEMANDS SUCH A DUNGEON.
TAKE ALL THE PRESTIGE!
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There is one already!
Play ** spoiler omitted **
The whole Gloomspire arc can be pretty difficult depending of your party composition.
When i played that one, we played up with one "martial" character [he just had a high ac, and no real power], an underlevel bard, and two spellcasters- a wizard and a sorcerer. I plead with the wizard player to bring his barbarian- but he didn't want to... only to find out late in the first fight that he bought Third-party spells.Yea, That scenario was tough right out of the gate.
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No need to play up to suffer in that one. Encounter 2 has a 3-4 of a dramatically under-CR'd critter in the 5-6 subtier. The encounter listed as CR 8 based on the listed monster CR of 4.
My group played our 4-Ratfolk-in-a-trenchcoat build was in that scenario. We nearly wiped in every fight, despite tearing through a bunch of other scenarios like tissue paper.
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Hrethnar's Throne has been getting a bad rap. Playing up with only one player in tier has the potential to be bad in lots of scenarios. That doesn't mean this scenario is unreasonably hard. I played through it in high tier we had 5 people actually in high tier and one level 6. It had a few reasonably challenging encounters, but I never thought it was that bad. In fact I doubt anyone at that table was ever really worried about their survival.
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Some people dislike death at every door dungeons. Its ok. They can retire at 10 where high level characters go to die with full predtige (sans prestige spent for rp things.)
To those people, the door is that way ------>
For those of us that want permanent scars, with a character that wakes up screaming 'oh (insert god here) do I have the resources to come back again!?"
Please stay here and sign. Tomb of the righteous respose whet my thirst. Please have Jason write us a apl+4 just to get into the door special please?
There is a part of the xommunity that desires this greatly.
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I wouldn't mind another one, but I think it might be too challenging to create. There are so many game-breaking character options out there that a Part IV would either be too difficult or too easy.
If they did create one, it'd have to be half a Tier. Like 10-11, rather than 7-11. Less work for the authors since there's less variability in character options.
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I recently ran it for our PFS group at the high tier. When I prepped it, I thought that it was a decently difficult 7-11. When I got to the gameday and people started Mustering with 5's, I said "but it's a 7-11". The other judge corrected me, and I had to look at the mod to verify. That module should have been a 7-11.
On the plus side, I got to make fairly tough characters nearly wet their pants, and managed to not kill anyone. It took some steppin and fetchin though.
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When we were getting ready to play Bonekeep 2, I wrote up a particularly nasty Bonekeep 1.5 and had someone else play my character in it as a practice game.
I don't think anyone died permanently, but they definitely hit the time limit, and there were more than a few "are you serious??" comments thrown around.
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Wasn't there initially a 4th installment planned. I would like another Bonekeep, but not because I feel we need more challenging scenarios. Challenging scenarios are great, but what qualifies as challenging is really subjective and dependent on a lot of external factors like party composition and who is GMing. I want another Bonekeep, because I was always under the asssumption it was a 4 part series and when it ended after part 3 I felt like I'd just finished yet another awesome show on Fox that got cancelled too early.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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There is one already!
Play ** spoiler omitted **
I have played that one in low tier, and ran it low and high. If the group is well within the tier, the difficulty is pretty appropriate. Groups just barely playing up tend to have a harder time in the higher tiers, so that doesn't really surprise me all that much.
Compared to Bonekeep (which frankly was also challenging but not unfair) one of the hardest scenarios I have run recently was Tome of Rightous Repose... mostly because I put a very dangerous encounter in a nasty location.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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There is one already!
Play ** spoiler omitted **
I have played that one in low tier, and ran it low and high. If the group is well within the tier, the difficulty is pretty appropriate. Groups just barely playing up tend to have a harder time in the higher tiers, so that doesn't really surprise me all that much.
The problem with your argument is that Bonekeep isn't as cheep as this scenario was. Here have 10d6/8d6?+More worth of damage that you probably have zero chance of ever avoiding.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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The problem with your argument is that Bonekeep isn't as cheep as this scenario was. Here have 10d6/8d6?+More worth of damage that you probably have zero chance of ever avoiding.
There is one already!
Play ** spoiler omitted **
I have played that one in low tier, and ran it low and high. If the group is well within the tier, the difficulty is pretty appropriate. Groups just barely playing up tend to have a harder time in the higher tiers, so that doesn't really surprise me all that much.
I am not sure what you are what you are talking about, the answer might be better suited to a spoiler.
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There is one already!
Play ** spoiler omitted **
I have played that one in low tier, and ran it low and high. If the group is well within the tier, the difficulty is pretty appropriate. Groups just barely playing up tend to have a harder time in the higher tiers, so that doesn't really surprise me all that much.
Compared to Bonekeep (which frankly was also challenging but not unfair) one of the hardest scenarios I have run recently was Tome of Rightous Repose... mostly because I put a very dangerous encounter in a nasty location.
Low tier with 3 7s (admittedly 2 of them were Amiri and Lem) seemed pretty mathematically unfair in Hrethnar's Throne.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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I'm not a fan of Bonekeep. The existence of adventures similar to Bonekeep encourages an arms race between developers and players that often means that new players can't keep up. Furthermore, it encourages the creation of unskilled, yet high-damage characters that can tank through the dungeon - exactly the opposite of the type of adventuring that the Pathfinder Society is supposed to be doing, from an in-game perspective. We're archaeologists, not warriors. There is certainly a place for challenging adventures, and I rather enjoy many of the hardest PFS scenarios, such as King of the Storval Stairs, The Elven Entanglement and Of Kirin and Kraken. The difference is that those adventures feature story elements and combats that are not just difficult, but also interesting. It makes sense for the Pathfinder Society to be in those places. Bonekeep? I don't know that the Society's gotten much out of exploring it.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Please no. Paizo team, please spend your precious resources on things that aren't the garbage we called Bonekeep."I don't like a thing, therefore no one should be allowed to like it!"
Man, what a lovely attitude to have.
He's not saying you can't enjoy the current Bonekeep adventures that have been released, he's saying he thinks it'd be a poor choice for Paizo to spend their limited budget developing more adventures that are highly polarizing to the community at large.
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I'm not a fan of Bonekeep. The existence of adventures similar to Bonekeep encourages an arms race between developers and players that often means that new players can't keep up. Furthermore, it encourages the creation of unskilled, yet high-damage characters that can tank through the dungeon - exactly the opposite of the type of adventuring that the Pathfinder Society is supposed to be doing, from an in-game perspective. We're archaeologists, not warriors. There is certainly a place for challenging adventures, and I rather enjoy many of the hardest PFS scenarios, such as King of the Storval Stairs, The Elven Entanglement and Of Kirin and Kraken. The difference is that those adventures feature story elements and combats that are not just difficult, but also interesting. It makes sense for the Pathfinder Society to be in those places. Bonekeep? I don't know that the Society's gotten much out of exploring it.
I'll just quote this rather than writing it out again. Bonekeep did nothing good for the community as a whole. The aforementioned arms race and its ramifications to new players is the primary reason I quit for two years.
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I disagree that Bonekeep did nothing good for the community. They were some of the most memorable adventures I have played because of their intensity; an out of game "This is dangerous. You may leave at any time when not in combat.", a timed adventure, and challenging combats.
I had fun. Other people have had fun. The adventure is very explicit it is dangerous to anyone who would play it. It doesn't pretend to be a diplomacy scenario and spring a horrifying combat at the end; it is what it says on the cover. It didn't trick people into playing it and it provides a unique experience for people who choose to.
I, and some others, would like to enjoy playing more Bonekeeps. I, and others, would like to enjoy more hard mode games. I don't believe just because some people didn't enjoy their experience we should stop all development on these types of games. While maybe a true success of a scenario can somehow manage such broad appeal as to appease everyone the reality is most won't and I recognize that challenging dungeon crawl isn't for everyone. I just want to play a 4th one.
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I enjoyed all three parts of Bonekeep (as a player). When the briefing is (paraphrased) "Come loaded for bear, because we think this is a suicide mission of sorts. If anyone can come back from it, its you," it makes you feel like a badass.
That said, it's not for everyone. Some people dislike the constant specter of failure. (I think it's exhilarating.) I feel like scenario difficulty is in a good spot right now.
To take the initial statement and twist it absurdly, though:
I too would like another Bonekeep. If nothing else, it's better than more lame Elemental Planes scenarios. There's plenty of our own plane to adventure without silly "everything is on fire"/"everything is underwater" planar traits.[/missing the point]
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No, Bonekeep doesn't need skill checks, it needs super high perception traps, insane save traps, and than CR +3++ monsters.
There is indeed a base of Society that wants a Tomb-esque dungeon, and it is not unfair to ask for one, once every other year.
I and several other's I game with, would really love another successor to this style of play. I understand it isn't everyone's cup of tea, however I believe much as we now are starting to see 12-15 modules show up, that we would also have success with a super hard dungeon crawl adventure once a year or once every other year.
There is most definitely a group for it, and before the argument of arm's race goes off. Arm's races are by definition the bread and butter of splat books. Every splat book that comes out, increases the power creep of characters. It is not unfair to ask for a super hard dungeon once every 52 scenario's.
Hopefully with Bonekeep's still being offered at varied conventions, we can add another floor, or even a new slag crawl as it were to the menu.
On another note, than you everyone that has been participating, for being cordial to one another. A lot of us enjoy different things, and hopefully there can be a balance for everyone.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Difficult combat scenarios are fine with me. Auto nerf on a character without chance of resistance is simply garbage. I will never recommend playing Bonekeep 2 or 3 because of the auto nerf, though I did enjoy Bonekeep 1. At least in Bonekeep 1 a character has a chance of avoiding the character nerf.
So I will repeat if Paizo is listening. Difficulty is fine. Auto nerfs are not.
Bonekeep 3 was easy though? So much so that it kind of shot a weird hole into the argument that it requires min-maxed characters.*
I'll just quote this rather than writing it out again. Bonekeep did nothing good for the community as a whole. The aforementioned arms race and its ramifications to new players is the primary reason I quit for two years.
Wasn't Season 4, the year of the rocket tag ,more responsible for those antics? Admittedly, over time those seasons become easier and easier because of new content but still.
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Please address the arguments made and not the ones making the argument.
Spewing bile hardly counts as making an argument, Steven. Now that Slanky has made a cogent point, I'm more than happy to address it.
Bonekeep did nothing good for the community as a whole.
It provided an enjoyable adventure that occupies 4-6 hours of time. That's really all the "good" any single adventure does for the community.
Although, one could make the case that with the rise of combat-free and combat-optional scenarios, having one old-fashioned bonecrunching dungeon crawl every year or two isn't unreasonable. Sometimes people just want to kill things, and I don't think occasionally indulging that desire is some kind of sin.
The aforementioned arms race and its ramifications to new players is the primary reason I quit for two years.
Did the arms race have anything to do with Bonekeep itself, or was it the design conventions of Season 4 and 5 that led to it?
Bonekeep is optional, and by design, doesn't tie into the metaplot, so people who don't care about it are free to ignore it. I'd say Bonekeep is no more detrimental to new players than the Hard Mode of All For Immortality. Do some players use challenging content (like Bonekeep and Hard Mode) as an excuse to min-max and disregard the feelings of their party? Certainly. But some players also use scenarios like Bid for Alabastrine as an excuse to play min-maxed skill characters, who steal the spotlight from the rest of the party. Blaming content itself for the behavior of a minority of the player base, does a disservice to everyone who likes that brand of content.
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This is my main beef with the Bonekeep scenarios.
When I ran parts one and two ("But not three?" We'll get to that...) at GenCon the exact same thing happened: Six players, four pregens.
"Hey, what are doing?"
"I'm swapping out Ezren's spells for better ones."
"No yer not. You play pregen Ezren, you get pregen Ezren's spells."
Now all of these pregen playing players had characters in tier, but did not want to roll the dice and maybe die if they played their character. To them, this was no big deal. To the other players it was.
So when characters died the pregen players started bragging about crib death dash eighteen, while the one or two who played their own character started calculating for how much they could use prestige and/or if they needed to sell equipment to get back to life. And since the pregen players did not care, they did not even hint at offering to help pay for spell casting services. This I would argue was detrimental to the community.
I know for a fact there is less interest in a fourth Bonekeep scenario. Fewer people played two than one, and a lot fewer people played three than two. I know; I was scheduled to run part three and was swapped out to a different scenario for that night. Mike didn't even schedule the full Sagamore; he had tables of other scenarios and there still was not enough interest to fill those tables. The community spoke and Paizo responded.
People play PFS for all sorts of reasons. Belittling those players who do not want to play another Bonekeep or scenarios a la Bonekeep will not convince me nor anyone else who might be able to make the choice to put one on the schedule.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I appreciate Leg o' Lamb's experience.
I haven't run any of the Bonekeep adventures yet, because I want to play them first. I haven't played them because my only opportunities to do so have been to join ad-hoc parties playing at conventions, and I am aware of the kind of tom-foolery that Leg o' Lamb speaks about.
There are some solutions to the problem where some people are taking the delve more seriously than others, but the simplest solution to my mind is to find groups who want to go through the place as a team.
"A team of solid players, playing solid characters familiar with one another, will out-perform a collection of strangers playing over-clocked encounter-munchers." And, more importantly, they'll all have an idea about how seriously they want to take the delve.
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Belittling those players who do not want to play another Bonekeep or scenarios a la Bonekeep will not convince me nor anyone else who might be able to make the choice to put one on the schedule.
Nobody has belittled you. Your only opinion up until now was "No" and, seeing as there are only 3 Bonekeeps out of hundreds of scenarios and a minority of players who enjoy them, I felt belittled by such a curt answer as a player who does enjoy such things.
Is the problem there isn't equal skin in the game so to say? It doesn't feel fair? We could make a special rule that pregens can't be played in "Bonekeeps" and "Hard Modes".
Also keep in mind as part of a series less people will naturally be inclined to go out of order to play these scenarios. If you schedule them all at once people will be even less inclined to play the next one if they died in the previous adventure. It isn't necessarily that they wouldn't enjoy playing it but they might not have a character they are confident in playing after just dying.
