A player of mine is using the spells and items
Longarm Potion
Longarm Bracers (Alter Self based)
Pliant Gloves
and Fluid Form
Do the effects of +#ft reach stack in these cases? Because I figured they wouldn't because although they're separate spells of differing names they're all applying the same bonus...
Aurorius Leyrin wrote: Because I figured they wouldn't because although they're separate spells of differing names they're all applying the same bonus... I think RAW it doin't stack cause you said it, same effect don't stack, just take the bigger one... ;)
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"The same bonus" doesn't matter. "The same type of bonus" would matter, but these are untyped (I've never seen a typed increase to reach). "The same source" would matter, but these are different sources, so they stack fine. They can even toss in enlarge person for another +5', since none of the ones you listed are size-changers (those specifically don't stack with each other).
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote: "The same bonus" doesn't matter. "The same type of bonus" would matter, but these are untyped (I've never seen a typed increase to reach). "The same source" would matter, but these are different sources, so they stack fine. They can even toss in enlarge person for another +5', since none of the ones you listed are size-changers (those specifically don't stack with each other). Huh ? They're all reach bonus though... Like bleed it doesn't stack no ?
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They are bonuses to reach, not "reach bonuses" to something. Bleed is specifically ruled not to stack. You will not find a rule saying anything similar about reach. In fact, many builds involve a buttload of reach increases stacking.
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote: They are bonuses to reach, not "reach bonuses" to something. Bleed is specifically ruled not to stack. You will not find a rule saying anything similar about reach. In fact, many builds involve a buttload of reach increases stacking. Oooh !! Nice thanks for the clarification... I can already see some nice build with this... :)
I usually forget about the fact that size and bleed specifically says it don't stack and that the rule is if it don't say it don't stack it stacks... :p
Add to that guy the Aberrant Bloodrager extra reach and a reach weapon. He can cast Longarm on himself, so doesn't need potions....
Longarm is a personal spell, can't be a potion anyways.
_Ozy_ wrote: Longarm is a personal spell, can't be a potion anyways. there are ways :)
? Sure, infusions, or elixirs if you can get the GM to agree.
But potions? Nope.
_Ozy_ wrote: ? Sure, infusions, or elixirs if you can get the GM to agree.
But potions? Nope.
there are some adventure paths that have potions of personal spells as loot, alchemists can also get a discovery for passing personal spells to others via a potion
Lady-J wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: ? Sure, infusions, or elixirs if you can get the GM to agree.
But potions? Nope.
there are some adventure paths that have potions of personal spells as loot, alchemists can also get a discovery for passing personal spells to others via a potion That would be the 'infusion' mentioned above. Not really the same as a potion. And yes, some APs screw up personal potions. Potions of See invisibility and Alter self are two common errors.
I would rules that the spells/magic items that add to your reach will add the value to the base reach, so they overlap but don't stack.
fluid form (or enlarge) instead change your base reach, so it can be combined with one of the spell effects/magic items cited above.
Essentially I would treat the different effects that add reach as we treat the different effects that change size. One of each kind.
Useful FAQs:
FAQ wrote: Reach increases and size increases: The description of Large or larger creatures with reach weapons says that they can strike up to double their natural reach but can’t strike at their natural reach or less. Do I calculate this doubling before or after effects that alter my reach like Lunge or longarm?
Double the base reach for a creature of your size first, then add in all the other abilities afterwards. So for instance, an ogre with the longarm spell wielding a longspear and using the Lunge feat would be able to attack creatures that were 15, 20, 25, or 30 feet away but not creatures that were 0, 5, or 10 feet away.
posted May 13, 2016 | back to top
Size increases and effective size increases: How does damage work if I have various effects that change my actual size, my effective size, and my damage dice?
As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies. The same is true of effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one. However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).
posted March 2015 | back to top
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They already have rules for (not) stacking form alterations in the transmutation (polymorph) section. Since only one of these spells is in the transmutation (polymorph) category, there is no reason why they wouldn't stack.
You've already quoted the rules on size stacking, so surely you know there are no such rules, so far, regarding reach.
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_Ozy_ wrote: there are no such rules, so far, regarding reach. This is true.
Which means right now a GM has to interpret.
I think most of us would agree though that if Paizo decides to clarify this issue with published rules or a FAQ that they will rule that reach works like size, and only the largest applies.
Increasing size can increase reach, increasing reach unrelated to size can increase reach and those two things would generally stack, but beyond that it is certainly questionable.
Of course individual GMs can do what they like, even if Paizo issues a clarification, but right now the best interpretation of the rules, as published, in my opinion is the multiple reach adjustments don't stack.
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"Interpreting" the rules requires text to interpret. What text are you interpreting to mean that these increases don't stack? They all say "your reach increases by X," not "your reach becomes your base reach plus X" or even "your base reach increases by X." Seems to me the idea that reach increases overlap is purely a house rule.
Dave Justus wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: there are no such rules, so far, regarding reach. This is true.
Which means right now a GM has to interpret.
I think most of us would agree though that if Paizo decides to clarify this issue with published rules or a FAQ that they will rule that reach works like size, and only the largest applies. I actually doubt that. The reason to not stack size is because size increases give you a whole host of bonuses...extra STR, reach, damage dice, CMD, grapple bonus, and so on.
You're much more likely to 'break the game' by casting enlarge person (or other higher level enhancer) on a polymorphed giant fighter than you are with someone who managed to eke out a 30' reach. I mean, look at all the hoops the OP has to jump through...he needs to have an alchemist 10th level or higher in the party to get access to infusions of longarm and fluid form, or needs to be one himself, or he needs to be a wizard 11th level or higher.
And then he needs to burn up two of his slots to get rather weak-ass items which only work 3 times per day and impose significant penalties to hit, which is not great for a 1/2 or 2/3 BAB class. Yeah, not too wow'ed.
It's a neat trick, but hardly over powered.
The character in question using this is an alchemist of 10th level playing a Blood Orc, with an already high strength (around 30-40) before buffing. He effectively negates all the minuses implied via the spells because of his high strength score and thus is able to have a 40ft reach.
So having a non reach weapon would be "I hit everything within 40ft" right?
Longarm potion (based of the transmutation spell Longarm)
Longarm Bracers (based on the transmutation & polymorph spell alter self)
Gloves Pliant (based on liquid form, transmutation effect)
Fluid Form (transmutation spell)
Transformation school says only this in regard to transformation spells:
Transformation wrote: Transmutation
Transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition.
For the record (see polymorph subschool), only 1 polymorph spell can affect a creature at a time.
Be aware that the limits of the subschool 'Polymorph' within the Transmutation School only applies to polymorph spells and not all transformation spells.
So how do 'none polymorph' transmutation spell effects stack?
Since we have a FAQ that clarifies that size increases from transmutation spells don't stack, we can assume RAI is that transformation effects altering the same bodypart in the same manner don't stack.
So Longarm, Longarm Bracers and Fluid form don't stack with eachother as they augment the same bodypart by stretching it.
(I couldnt find liquid form when I googled, so I dont know how it adds reach)
Fluid form makes all other arm enhancing spells pale in comparison.
Once again, you can't have a longarm potion. If you mean extract or infusion, say extract or infusion.
Size doesn't stack because the rules say they don't stack. Otherwise they would stack. The rules say nothing about reach effects not stacking, therefore they stack.
If they wanted those effects to not stack, they could have made them 'polymorph' effects instead of simple transmutation effects.
_Ozy_ wrote: Once again, you can't have a longarm potion. If you mean extract or infusion, say extract or infusion.
except when one of two things are met 1) the adventure path has potions of long arm or 2) the dm says he can have them
_Ozy_ wrote: 1. Once again, you can't have a longarm potion. If you mean extract or infusion, say extract or infusion.
2. Size doesn't stack because the rules say they don't stack. Otherwise they would stack. The rules say nothing about reach effects not stacking, therefore they stack.
3. If they wanted those effects to not stack, they could have made them 'polymorph' effects instead of simple transmutation effects.
1. Longarm Extract' / Infusion'
2. You are right until you are wrong; Does the speed bonus from Longstrider stack with the speed bonus from Expeditious Retreat?
Answer: No
Does reach increases from spells which transform the same bodypart in the same way stack?
Answer: No
Here is the rule/guideline you've overlooked: "Should 2 effects apply bonuses of the same type/in the same way, only apply the larger one."
Both can be active at the same time, so if one is dispelled you can still rely on the other. Most reach spells change armlength by stretching them out, that is why they don't stack with eachother.
3. Polymorph spells changes you into something, while most of these spells adds an additional aspect to your current body, which is why they're transmutation spells. 'None polymorph' Transmutation spells allows you to augment many different features, features that may not have been available to you in 1 specific form of a polymorph spell.
I don't remember the source for the rule I mentioned in 2. however I only depend on the books, FAQs and RAIs from logical reasonings from developers clarifications.
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The reason Longstrider and Expeditious Retreat do not stack is because they are enhancement bonuses. The same cannot be said for any increases to reach, since they are all typeless, and are all different sources.
VIPfr33dom wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: 1. Once again, you can't have a longarm potion. If you mean extract or infusion, say extract or infusion.
2. Size doesn't stack because the rules say they don't stack. Otherwise they would stack. The rules say nothing about reach effects not stacking, therefore they stack.
3. If they wanted those effects to not stack, they could have made them 'polymorph' effects instead of simple transmutation effects.
1. Longarm Extract' / Infusion'
2. You are right until you are wrong; Does the speed bonus from Longstrider stack with the speed bonus from Expeditious Retreat?
Answer: No
Does reach increases from spells which transform the same bodypart in the same way stack?
Answer: No
Here is the rule/guideline you've overlooked: "Should 2 effects apply bonuses of the same type/in the same way, only apply the larger one."
Both can be active at the same time, so if one is dispelled you can still rely on the other. Most reach spells change armlength by stretching them out, that is why they don't stack with eachother.
3. Polymorph spells changes you into something, while most of these spells adds an additional aspect to your current body, which is why they're transmutation spells. 'None polymorph' Transmutation spells allows you to augment many different features, features that may not have been available to you in 1 specific form of a polymorph spell.
I don't remember the source for the rule I mentioned in 2. however I only depend on the books, FAQs and RAIs from logical reasonings from developers clarifications.
Yeah, 2 is not a rule at all. Also, size increases don't work with polymorph spells. Note, once again reach isn't mentioned.
Good point about both Longstrider & Expeditious Retreat being enhancement bonuses Waifu, somehow I had managed to leave it out.
I remember trying to find claim reach bonuses would stack when I built a Magus a while back, I found almost none support from the rules that said reach spell bonuses would stack and more support of it probably not stacking. I decided to build my Magus differently as the rules on it were too vague.
Argument:
All of the reach spells seems to be untyped bonuses. And as far as I remember, only dodge bonuses (of all types of bonuses) can work in addition to eachother.
As such, they don't stack.
Nothing I've found 'Pro-reach spell stacking' have made a better argument than this one above which is why I (as a player) have decided that they don't stack until proven they can.
((I'm fully aware 'bonuses' generally implies +1, +7 or other numeric values, which is why it may seem odd to use the argument, even with that uniqueness, it's still the best RAW I've found on the subject and in addition; adding +5 reach is a numeric value to your reach value.))
Ozy, for the same reason Longstrider doesn't work with Expeditious retreat (I just said 'cause it's speed' earlier but left out 'cause both are bonuses of the same type (enchantment bonuses) which is why they don't stack'. Only the highest bonus applies, that's the rule I was referencing, though it was impossible to see that as a piece of the text had fallen off.
If you can prove untyped bonuses stack, I'll agree with you that it's very possible the reach bonuses by RAW stacks. To me, both RAW and RAI proves they don't stack.
Bonuses wrote: Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source. None of these are the same source. Therefore they stack.
Done.
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote: Bonuses wrote: Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source. None of these are the same source. Therefore they stack.
Done. Unless of course you consider spells to be the same source.
Quintin Verassi wrote: Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote: Bonuses wrote: Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source. None of these are the same source. Therefore they stack.
Done. Unless of course you consider spells to be the same source. "Spells" is not a source, it is a group but there are no rule distinctions for groups. a "spell" is a source. "Spell A" will stack with "Spell B" but not with any potion, extract, Wonderous Item, Scroll or ability that "functions as Spell A" There are specific exceptions in situations such as size increases but no such specific rule exists for reach increases. It could be something that the PDT FAQs in the future if we bring enough attention to it but that would be making a new rule, not changing an existsing rule's interpetation.
My opinion is that it took a very long time for the game to accumulate enough sources of increased reach for stacking to become a serious possibility which is why we have nothing that addresses it yet. Start throwing a lot of these builds at PFS and we'll get some new rules soon enough.
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote: Bonuses wrote: Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source. None of these are the same source. Therefore they stack.
Done. Waifu and Torbyne, perhaps you've missed that a spell is only something that allows you to do something spectacular. The benefits the spells add are generally, insightbonuses, sacred bonuses, competence bonuses, dodge bonuses and so on or if not typed out refered to as 'untyped' bonuses.
+5 to reach doesn't say what bonus it is, which makes it untyped, from my perspective.
And until you've found a rule allowing one to stack untyped bonuses, you can't according to FAQs and rules, since; "Only dodge bonuses stacks".
You may have missed this;
Bonuses wrote: Bonuses
Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
Source: Bonuses D20
It even lists 'size bonuses' as a type of bonuses. You may not change your entire size with the 'long arm' spell, but you do change your arms size. So Long arm wouldn't stack with enlarge person. Though break, but there are many other good options spells may provide.
This may be hard to grasp but 'longarm' would stack with a polymorph spell, because it doesn't change your size, it warps you into something else. And this 'something else' is of it's regular size.
Untyped bonuses from different sources stack. And different spells are different sources.
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Untyped bonuses from different sources stack. And different spells are different sources.
Do you have a source each for those two claims?
EDIT: saw my own quote of reference to 'bonuses' claim that "Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source".
Are 'spells' in comparison to traits and the like, considered a group or different sources? :)
And is the size change to your arms considered a size change or a 'bonus without a type'?
Find accurate support and sources for your sides on this and you've won me over.
VIPfr33dom wrote: ...
It even lists 'size bonuses' as a type of bonuses. You may not change your entire size with the 'long arm' spell, but you do change your arms size. So Long arm wouldn't stack with enlarge person. Though break, but there are many other good options spells may provide.
...
"Arm Size" is not a game term. "Size Bonuses" refers to character size. The reach gains from Long Arm and Enlarge Person "stack" just fine.
Don't have the exact page # but the CRB says that untyped bonuses from different sources stack. If you do a quick google search you can find that.
As for whether different Spells are different sources, if you're going to say that they aren't because all spells are one source, why not say that nothing in the CRB stacks because its all the same source?
When you start being pedantic like that it quickly gets silly.
Gisher wrote: VIPfr33dom wrote: ...
It even lists 'size bonuses' as a type of bonuses. You may not change your entire size with the 'long arm' spell, but you do change your arms size. So Long arm wouldn't stack with enlarge person. Though break, but there are many other good options spells may provide.
...
"Arm Size" is not a game term. "Size Bonuses" refers to character size. The reach gains from Long Arm and Enlarge Person "stack" just fine. "Foot size" is also not a game term, but I can assure you it is important to take into account for an enlarged character being tracked or a monk using his Unarmed Strikes.
This is a quote from 'Bonuses' I've earlier quoted, but further down in regard to size: (Reread the bold part about 20 times to let the words and all applications of it sink in);
Size wrote: A size bonus or penalty is derived from a creature’s size category. Size modifiers of different kinds apply to armor class, attack rolls, Stealth checks, combat maneuver checks, and various other checks. The size bonus to large from Enlarge person involves mainly AC, CMB and CMD changes, so most overlook that increased reach or decreased reach is a bonus and/or penalty derived from a creature's size category. As such, bonuses/penalties to reach are size bonuses rather than untyped bonuses. And size bonuses don't stack.
This does not mean that 'Longarm' gives you reach as if +1 size category, but that since it tampers with your size aspect of 'reach' it won't stack with other 'size increases' adding to reach.
Please prove me wrong.
VIPfr33dom wrote: Gisher wrote: VIPfr33dom wrote: ...
It even lists 'size bonuses' as a type of bonuses. You may not change your entire size with the 'long arm' spell, but you do change your arms size. So Long arm wouldn't stack with enlarge person. Though break, but there are many other good options spells may provide.
...
"Arm Size" is not a game term. "Size Bonuses" refers to character size. The reach gains from Long Arm and Enlarge Person "stack" just fine. "Foot size" is also not a game term, but I can assure you it is important to take into account for an enlarged character being tracked or a monk using his Unarmed Strikes. You are actually supporting my position. Character Size matters. Long Arm doesn't alter your Character Size.
VIPfr33dom wrote: This is a quote from 'Bonuses' I've earlier quoted, but further down in regard to size: (Reread the bold part about 20 times to let the words and all applications of it sink in);
Size wrote: A size bonus or penalty is derived from a creature’s size category. Size modifiers of different kinds apply to armor class, attack rolls, Stealth checks, combat maneuver checks, and various other checks. The size bonus to large from Enlarge person involves mainly AC, CMB and CMD changes, so most overlook that increased reach or decreased reach is a bonus and/or penalty derived from a creature's size category. As such, bonuses/penalties to reach are size bonuses rather than untyped bonuses. And size bonuses don't stack.
This does not mean that 'Longarm' gives you reach as if +1 size category, but that since it tampers with your size aspect of 'reach' it won't stack with other 'size increases' adding to reach.
Please prove me wrong.
The burden of proof is actually on you. Where does Long Arm state that it increases your Size Category? If it doesn't state that it increases your Size Category, then it doesn't increase your Size Category.
VIPfr33dom wrote: Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Untyped bonuses from different sources stack. And different spells are different sources.
Do you have a source each for those two claims?
EDIT: saw my own quote of reference to 'bonuses' claim that "Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source".
Are 'spells' in comparison to traits and the like, considered a group or different sources? :)
And is the size change to your arms considered a size change or a 'bonus without a type'?
Find accurate support and sources for your sides on this and you've won me over. This is the exact thing i was telling you in my post. "spells" is not a source. Neither is "Arcane" or "Divine" or anything like that. A specific spell is a source and that source may or may not be typed. Typed bonuses will not stack, so two spells that give the same "type" benefit will not work together. Spells will also not stack with the same spell, so Longarm will not stack with an item that "functions as Longarm" But you can freely stack any spell or other effect that increases reach so long as you are not doubling up on the same spells or effect and the type bonuses they grant are separate or untyped bonuses.
There are no rules that mention arm size categories, what rule are you reading that makes you think there are?
VIPfr33dom wrote: Bonuses wrote: Bonuses
Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
It's right there, as I posted but 'apparently missed'. Seriously, read the line and read what I quoted.
Which is more proof than you've demonstrated in the rabbling nonesense you've provided thus far. I have no idea what you're claiming at this point.
Frankly at the beginning of this thread I was all : "It don't stack, 'cause bonus of the same type don't stack and reach bonus are reach bonus and don't stack"...
But after reading all the threads I'm now in favor of stacking... RAW it make much more sense than not... ;)
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bonuses stack. They are the only thing in this game that stack as a general rule, and even then only if they are of differing types; if they are Dodge, Racial, or Circumstance bonuses (from different circumstances); and are from different sources (different spells, items, or ability scores, for example). Nothing else stacks unless specifically called out to do so, since the stacking rules only apply/exist when speaking in the context of numerical game bonuses (as defined by the Getting Started chapter of the Core Rulebook).
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not "stack")—only the greater bonus granted applies.
If you have an ability that says "You have a reach of 10 feet," and another that says "you have a reach of 15 feet," then you have a reach of only 15 feet. They are not bonuses, so the bonus stacking rules do not apply and thus they do not stack. You simply have two abilities that give you two similar benefits.
However, if you have an ability that says "You have a reach of 10 feet," and another that says "your reach increases by 10 feet," then you have a final reach range of 20 feet.
Be sure to pay attention to the wording of the individual rules with abilities such as these!
Ravingdork wrote: Bonuses stack. They are the only thing in this game that stack as a general rule, and even then only if they are of differing types; if they are Dodge, Racial, or Circumstance bonuses (from different circumstances); and are from different sources (different spells, items, or ability scores, for example). Nothing else stacks unless specifically called out to do so, since the stacking rules only apply/exist when speaking in the context of numerical game bonuses (as defined by the Getting Started chapter of the Core Rulebook).
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not "stack")—only the greater bonus granted applies.
If you have an ability that says "You have a reach of 10 feet," and another that says "you have a reach of 15 feet," then you have a reach of only 15 feet. They are not bonuses, so the bonus stacking rules do not apply and thus they do not stack. You simply have two abilities that give you two similar benefits.
However, if you have an ability that says "You have a reach of 10 feet," and another that says "your reach increases by 10 feet," then you have a final reach range of 20 feet.
Be sure to pay attention to the wording of the individual rules with abilities such as these!
I totally agree with you Ravindork, except perhaps about the thing about reach increases. I used to agree with that until I began ruling reach as a statistical score dependent upon it's size. However you make alot of sense in 'increases with' in comparison to 'increases to'. However a bodypart is a bodypart. If you try to alter it, the effect changes it's size, and size bonuses don't stack.
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not "stack")—only the greater bonus granted applies.
(This is as far as my research on it toke me 2 years ago)
That is my final word. Don't think I have any more arguments for my case other than repetitions.
You clearly don't understand what a size bonus.
You are confusing the common english word "size" with the game term "Size" easy mistake to make but not the same thing.
If reach increases were meant to be size bonuses, they'd be worded something like, "Your reach increases as if you were one size category larger".
Melkiador wrote: If reach increases were meant to be size bonuses, they'd be worded something like, "Your reach increases as if you were one size category larger". Or it could be worded to something like "you gain a +10 size bonus to your reach."
Basically if it says "size bonus" or meantions "size category" in the effect description that it is a size related effect and you can only benefit from one at a time.
If it just uses size or reach in generic terms such as "you arms grow 10' in size" than it is not refering specifically to the game term Size and stacks with other effects.
A piece was left out from the text and the site was unable to be reached for an hour; here is the edited version:
Ravingdork wrote: Bonuses stack. They are the only thing in this game that stack as a general rule, and even then only if they are of differing types; if they are Dodge, Racial, or Circumstance bonuses (from different circumstances); and are from different sources (different spells, items, or ability scores, for example). Nothing else stacks unless specifically called out to do so, since the stacking rules only apply/exist when speaking in the context of numerical game bonuses (as defined by the Getting Started chapter of the Core Rulebook).
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not "stack")—only the greater bonus granted applies.
If you have an ability that says "You have a reach of 10 feet," and another that says "you have a reach of 15 feet," then you have a reach of only 15 feet. They are not bonuses, so the bonus stacking rules do not apply and thus they do not stack. You simply have two abilities that give you two similar benefits.
However, if you have an ability that says "You have a reach of 10 feet," and another that says "your reach increases by 10 feet," then you have a final reach range of 20 feet.
Be sure to pay attention to the wording of the individual rules with abilities such as these!
I totally agree with you Ravindork, except perhaps about the thing about reach increases. I used to agree with that until I began ruling reach as a statistical score dependent upon it's size. However you make alot of sense in 'increases with' in comparison to 'increases to'. However a bodypart is a bodypart. If you try to alter it, the effect changes it's size, and size bonuses don't stack.
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not "stack")—only the greater bonus granted applies.
(The research I did 2 years ago took me to this point.)
That is my final word. Don't think I can argue for my case much more without repeating myself.
There are sacred bonuses, trait bonuses, insight bonuses, competence bonuses, profane bonuses, dodge bonuses, untyped bonuses, racial bonuses and size bonuses. I do not limit size bonuses to only apply to the global size of the creature, but to each bodypart.
If you want to run your small 2 foot tall Halfling with 15 feet long arms and think there is nothing wrong with that, then I believe my good sir is utterly Mad!
I went through the entire CRB and nowhere did I see any association of the term "size bonus/penalty" with the term "reach". A character gets more or less reach due to changes in size, but that is inherent to the size and not a bonus or penalty.
VIPfr33dom wrote: A piece was left out from the text and the site was unable to be reached for an hour; here is the edited version:
Ravingdork wrote: Bonuses stack. They are the only thing in this game that stack as a general rule, and even then only if they are of differing types; if they are Dodge, Racial, or Circumstance bonuses (from different circumstances); and are from different sources (different spells, items, or ability scores, for example). Nothing else stacks unless specifically called out to do so, since the stacking rules only apply/exist when speaking in the context of numerical game bonuses (as defined by the Getting Started chapter of the Core Rulebook).
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not "stack")—only the greater bonus granted applies.
If you have an ability that says "You have a reach of 10 feet," and another that says "you have a reach of 15 feet," then you have a reach of only 15 feet. They are not bonuses, so the bonus stacking rules do not apply and thus they do not stack. You simply have two abilities that give you two similar benefits.
However, if you have an ability that says "You have a reach of 10 feet," and another that says "your reach increases by 10 feet," then you have a final reach range of 20 feet.
Be sure to pay attention to the wording of the individual rules with abilities such as these!
I totally agree with you Ravindork, except perhaps about the thing about reach increases. I used to agree with that until I began ruling reach as a statistical score dependent upon it's size. However you make alot of sense in 'increases with' in comparison to 'increases to'. However a bodypart is a bodypart. If you try to alter it, the effect changes it's size, and size bonuses don't stack.
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and...
If you have someone who is 2' tall with 15' long arms than my first question will be along the lines of "Wait, are we discussing some setting with easy access to magic or some kind of basically magical technology?" and then when you said, "Oh yes, i am" i would be cool with the hypothetical mega arms because they are a result of magic and magic doesnt have to explain itself like that.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Pink Dragon wrote: I went through the entire CRB and nowhere did I see any association of the term "size bonus/penalty" with the term "reach". Minor nitpick: Penalties aren't usually typed, since pretty much all penalties stack with one another (provided they are from different circumstances).
From the Core Rulebook, Getting Started chapter:
Penalty: Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another.
I feel like a downer for saying this but I want to keep things within 'reasonable expectations', magic is still awesome!
Often, when magic results in a fun unique aspect it's an intended effect.
But when you come across many crazy shenanigan concepts people have in mind involving spells, it is typically a result of a lack of interest in reading up on rules or one putting aside the developers intentions. Like mounts used as bombs, summoned in the air. Or multiple polymorph spells applying at once. Or stacking similar bonuses, in reality based of the same type. Or in general trying to min max to obtain 4 or more specific beneficial effects so that one can wreck havoc. More often than not it turns out to be a missunderstanding of the rules and/or the rules as written or intended.
How the theory was born:
I was trying to come up with potential interpretations I could have missed and afterwards find ideas crazy people would say so that I could have a quick reply without delaying the session.
So I developed the crazy theory on reach being considered a size increase as a potential counterargument to expect when using my 3 sourced reach boosted magus.
However, it made more and more sense the more I looked into it, until it made more sense than stacking reach effects onto eachother. To me it is very much possible a developer would refer to increased reach being considered an increase in size category for that bodypart much rather inplace of allowing them to stack. Because such a clarification would make it impossible as per the size stacking rules to create reach shenanigans. Most rules exists for a reason.
Increased Damage dice and increased reach are very good features, and both (according to my interpretation) tied to size increases, it is very possible they both are somewhat limited as per size-bonus-stacking-limits.
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