Magic Weapon Effects Touch Attack


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

One of my players has raised the following question,

From my understanding RAW does not give a concluding answer to this question and although I can understand the question and do wonder myself, I also fear for balance.

The question is:

Can you make a touch attack with for instance a Flaming weapon to solely deal the 1d6 Fire damage?

Arguments for:
It's realistic, imagine just touching someone with a hot iron, they'll feel it... Smacking them with it also deals physical damage.

Arguments against:
Game balance.

(Since I'm sure a question like this will raise quite a bit of discussion, I'd like to nominate this post for the FAQ. In case you plan on nominating it with me, please keep that to this post to bundle the numbers.)

Cheers,
Sorrol


No, you can't, because there is no rule saying you can.

And I've never seen the question raised before, so I'm unconvinced it's Frequently Asked.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

No, you can't, because there is no rule saying you can.

And I've never seen the question raised before, so I'm unconvinced it's Frequently Asked.

Along the same lines you can argue that you can because there is no rule saying you can't... And realistically it would be possible


Sorrol wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

No, you can't, because there is no rule saying you can.

And I've never seen the question raised before, so I'm unconvinced it's Frequently Asked.

Along the same lines you can argue that you can because there is no rule saying you can't...

That isn't the way that the rules are written. If "it doesn't say they can't" was the underlying principle then you would have constant arguments along the lines of "it doesn't say that humans can't fly and don't have heat vision."


Gisher wrote:
Sorrol wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

No, you can't, because there is no rule saying you can.

And I've never seen the question raised before, so I'm unconvinced it's Frequently Asked.

Along the same lines you can argue that you can because there is no rule saying you can't...
That isn't the way that the rules are written. If "it doesn't say they can't" was the underlying principle then you would have constant arguments along the lines of "it doesn't say that humans can't fly and don't have heat vision."

Problem is that nowhere it states that it has normal vision, nor do the rules anywhere state that if it isn't stated that you have low light or darkvision that you then have normal vision... But still they do


It's probably worth considering that AC is a bunch of things, including stamina, dodging, armor, and so on.

Personally... I think I'd actually lean against this kind of ruling. Here's why:

There are some creatures that you generally want to be able to deal specific kinds of damage to. Trolls, for example. Making it easier to hit these creatures' weak points will make them less of a threat than they're intended to be.

Furthermore, most characters actually using weapons won't need this kind of benefit. They'll hit most of the time with their first attack anyway, and there's rarely an occasion in which striking with your normal damage is something you'd be trying to avoid. And if there is, it's specifically there as a challenge, and not meant to be bypassed quite so easily.


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Nope.
For the same reason you don't get to use those effects (Flaming, etc) or vanilla weapon bonuses when using a sword as an improvised weapon to deal Bludgeoning damage. Because you are then no longer using the weapon in the manner it was designed for, so effects which modify the weapon's normal attack and damage don't apply. Trying to make a Touch Attack with the weapon no more trigger's the weapon's "triggered on attack" functions than touching the weapon to pick it up does, because the "attack" it references is the WEAPON attack of the item as it is designed to be used as a weapon, if you are doing anything else with it, then it is just treated as an object for which none of the weapon enhancements apply.
And because Flaming etc grant bonus damage (+1d6) which is premised on making an attack that already does some base damage (if only by the minimum 1 non-lethal rule). If the base attack doesn't do any damage, then one cannot apply "extra" damage on top of nothing.
The only time you get to target Touch AC and make a Touch Attack is when you have an ability (rules assume spell, but could be Su etc) which explicitly says so. Otherwise there are plenty of effects (Stunning Critical, Medusa's Wrath, etc) which would be more reliable to trigger by "choosing" to make a Touch Attack. That doesn't work, because you can't just "choose" to make a Touch Attack without explicitly having a Touch Attack to make in the first place. And neither conventional weapons nor Flaming etc quality give you a Touch Attack.


Sorrol wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Sorrol wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

No, you can't, because there is no rule saying you can.

And I've never seen the question raised before, so I'm unconvinced it's Frequently Asked.

Along the same lines you can argue that you can because there is no rule saying you can't...
That isn't the way that the rules are written. If "it doesn't say they can't" was the underlying principle then you would have constant arguments along the lines of "it doesn't say that humans can't fly and don't have heat vision."
Problem is that nowhere it states that it has normal vision, nor do the rules anywhere state that if it isn't stated that you have low light or darkvision that you then have normal vision... But still they do

This is also not the way the rules are written. If they had to list every default condition for every situation then the rulebooks would be too heavy to carry.

The rules are structured as specific changes layered on top of default assumptions. What you are referring to as 'normal vision' is the default. Since the descriptions for Humans do not list any specific changes to the default, Humans have 'normal vision.'


Take a look at deliquescent gloves, these explicitly give you a touch attack and make your weapons and nat attacks corrosive. If corrosive gave you the option of touch attacks it would not need to mention that this item gives you one. So I say no touch attacks for corrosive, flaming or whatnot weapons.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

It doesn't say you can do you can't. Ask your GM for a house rule,


Considering how often you might find yourself or your allies or things you like brushing against the weapon when it's flaming/frigid/fizzling/fwazapping, I think the magic enchants it so it doesn't actually burn/ice/melt/zap unless you 'really' attack. Which it can tell because magic.


Quandary wrote:

Nope.

For the same reason you don't get to use those effects (Flaming, etc) or vanilla weapon bonuses when using a sword as an improvised weapon to deal Bludgeoning damage.
Quandary wrote:


That doesn't work, because you can't just "choose" to make a Touch Attack without explicitly having a Touch Attack to make in the first place.

Not to be pedantic. But could you tell me where this is stated in the rules? Because I get the feeling you're stating this as if it has been stated in the rules, but if so then I have missed it (which very likely could be the case ofcourse.)

Cheers,
Sorrol


I don't believe you can use the flaming property as a touch attack normally. I have no problem using a flaming weapon as a torch, or to clear webs out of the way, or to light other torches or fuses, but I think when it comes to damaging a foe, you have to otherwise pass their armor class.

Obviously if you are just in a scene and burning them while they're tied to a chair or something I might use the damage as an indicator of pain, but just slapping or smacking their plate armor or breastplate in a normal situation is not going to deal the normal additional damage.


A torch, which is essentially a much weaker version of this same practice, actually requires you to make a normal attack against AC in order to do it's 1 point of fire damage, and is treated as an improvised weapon for doing this. To actually hurt someone with it by pressing it against someone probably would require the creature not being able to actively avoid the damage.

There is a magic item, the Demonic Smith's Gloves does provide some method of utilizing touch attacks to deliver fire damage, but these are separate from the weapon abilities themselves and specific to the gloves.

Similarly, using the phrase 'Where does it say that I can't do this' is absolutely disgusting munchkining and is not a legitimate argument for this. Not FAQ worthy.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Sorrol wrote:
Not to be pedantic. But could you tell me where this is stated in the rules?

Same place it say you can't fly because you tape on plastic wings to your back. Ask your Adam to adjudicate any "It doesn't say I can't" ruling.


Just dropped by to say "It doesn't say I can't" isn't a valid argument.

The rules are (primarily developed) to say what you can do, not what you can't do.

Otherwise you end up having something like this conversation:
Player: I have infinite wishes!
GM: How did you get that?
Player: The rule book doesn't say I don't get a wish for looking at the stars, so I do.
GM: *Defenestrates player*

Sometimes the rules remind us what you can't do for clarification purposes, but that is not their primary role.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

No, you can't, because there is no rule saying you can.

And I've never seen the question raised before, so I'm unconvinced it's Frequently Asked.

I know I for one have asked it before, and have seen it asked before by others.

Java Man wrote:
Take a look at deliquescent gloves, these explicitly give you a touch attack and make your weapons and nat attacks corrosive. If corrosive gave you the option of touch attacks it would not need to mention that this item gives you one. So I say no touch attacks for corrosive, flaming or whatnot weapons.

I don't think that really follows; lots of rules have clarifying text when it would otherwise be redundant/unnecessary.

Pizza Lord wrote:
I have no problem using a flaming weapon as a torch, or to clear webs out of the way, or to light other torches or fuses...

You totally can't do that because the rules don't say you can. You're fine if you're using torches, but the rules say nothing about similar magical weapons, so you're totally out of luck there, buddy. /sarcasm


Ravingdork wrote:
Pizza Lord wrote:
I have no problem using a flaming weapon as a torch, or to clear webs out of the way, or to light other torches or fuses...
You totally can't do that because the rules don't say you can. You're fine if you're using torches, but the rules say nothing about similar magical weapons, so you're totally out of luck there, buddy. /sarcasm
Web wrote:
... A flaming weapon can slash them away as easily as a hand brushes away cobwebs

I know, totally! Thank God they put this line here to clarify hands can be used to brush away cobwebs too! If only they had taken the time to clarify exactly how easily hands brush away cobwebs. ;)

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