Bard (Dawnflower Dervish / Savage Skald) 1 - Magus (Hexcrafter / Bladebound) X


Advice

Dark Archive

So I was looking for a way to avoid spending my first feats as a Magus grabbing Finesse and Dervish Dance. So I thought a dip into Bard could help out and make a really nice build, both by giving me a lot of class skills to give out of combat utility as well as providing Dervish Dance at level 1 for free. The focus of the build is really to stack debuffs via Enforcer/Rime Frostbite/possible hexes. Let me know if you have any suggestions.

I largely have the first 5-7 levels planned out in an optimized way. But I am at a loss for what to do after that and am looking for some advice.

I wonder weather I should just use Magical Lineage/Wayang Spellhunter on Frostbite/Frigid touch and get rid of the intensified shocking grasp (focus on debuff and control). That frees up my 7th level feat to grab something else of value to complete another feat chain or grab another hex.

I also wonder whether it is better to have a bladebound or not. Its pretty much a choice of a familiar or the black blade. I like that it frees up some wealth for purchasing other things. But It would have been nice to have a cruel scimitar and add keen from my pool to stack the sickening on my attacks vs. having a cheaper blade that slowly upgrades. Am I correct in that interpretation that the +1 enhancements can't be swapped for any equivalent +1 enhancements that can normally be purchased?

I really like the hexcrafter and want to grab flight at level 4 and have flight. Are there other good hexes? I was thinking evil eye, but it seems like it has mediocre action economy since if I am within 30ft of something I can likely get to it to hit it. I could see using it as a closing move during a first round (move + standard) but I could always cast a spell with that action as well. Other than the cantrip brand, what are the good curse spells to drop as a debuffer that have a good chance of hitting with my DCs? Is there a curse worth putting metamagic on with Magical Lineage/Wayang Spellhunter?

As well do you feel like it is worthwhile going into Arcane Strike/Riving Strike to further debuff. I figured I could use Arcana to get disruptive and other items that don't rely on swift action usage and become a good anti-caster. Perhaps grab lingering pain with Step-up so I can hit with arcane strike, then use up my swift on the next turn to make it way the concentration check worse and shut them down. I should be able to take them out on the next turn.

1 Bard (Dawnflower Dervish/Savage Skald) - Magus (Hexcrafter/Bladebound)

Race
1 - Human

Racial Trait
1 - Dual Talented (+2 DEX/+2 INT)

Traits
1 - Maestro of Society (3 extra performance rounds)
2 - Blade of Mercy (+1 damage for non-lethal, no non-lethal penalty with slashing weapons)
3 - Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp) (Feat at level 5)
4 - Wayang Spellhunter (Frostbite) (Feat at level 5)

Diety:
1 - Sarenrae

Stats (at Level 1):
STR - 10
DEX - 18 (16 + 2 Racial)
CON - 14
INT 16 (14 + 2 Racial)
WIS - 8
CHA - 12

Stats (at Level 11):
STR - 8
DEX - 24 (16 + 2 Racial + 2 Level + 4 Belt)
CON - 16 (14 + 2 Ioun Stone)
INT 20 (16 + 2 Racial + 4 Headband)
WIS - 10
CHA - 12

Feats:
1C - Dervish Dance
1 - Enforcer
3 - Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
5 - Extra Traits (Magical Lineage/Wayang Spellhunter)
6C - Rime Spell
7 - Intensified Spell
9 - Spell Penetration or Extra Performance or Harmonic Spell or Step Up or Extra Arcana (Lingering Pain or Disruptive)
11 - Greater Spell Penetration or Extra Arcana

Arcana/Hexes:
4 - Black Blade (+1)
5 - Flight Hex
7 - Arcane Accuracy?
10 - Spell Blending?

Scarab Sages

Greetings. I would recommend snowball instead of shocking grasp. Especially in a dex build with a ranged touch attack with no save or SR and it will synergize well with Rime spell. Take the close range arcana instead of the black blade so you can use snowball in spell combat. The black blade doesn't allow you to enchant your weapon with spell storing. A magus with a spell storing weapon can Nova like no other class. While i like Hexcrafters, I don't not think they are worth it due to the expense of Spell Recall. The biggest problem with casters is having enough spells when you need them. Spell Recall allows for ultimate flexibility. At 6th level and 9th i would take spell blending for adding the really nice wizard spells that aren't on the Magus list. I also would not recommend any dip for a Magus. To many good class abilities and delayed spell progression.

Good Luck.

Sovereign Court

FYI, Snowball doesn't work with Close Range Arcana because it's not a ray.


90% sure that Dervish Dance doesn't work with Spell Combat anymore

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Hexcrafter modifies your arcana to add hex to the allowed choices.
Blade bound modifies your 3rd level arcana.

These don't stack as one modifies your whole arcana class feature and the other modifies a sub feature.

Likewise dawflower dervish modifies bardic music and savage skald replaces a lot of sub features.


Shakalaka wrote:
90% sure that Dervish Dance doesn't work with Spell Combat anymore

Since when? I haven't seen any changes for either recently.


Shakalaka wrote:
90% sure that Dervish Dance doesn't work with Spell Combat anymore

Yeah, nothings changed for this as of yet.

Dark Archive

James Risner wrote:

Hexcrafter modifies your arcana to add hex to the allowed choices.

Blade bound modifies your 3rd level arcana.

These don't stack as one modifies your whole arcana class feature and the other modifies a sub feature.

Likewise dawflower dervish modifies bardic music and savage skald replaces a lot of sub features.

Well then no bladebound and no savage skald. Herolab leads me astray.

I will admit that the wording of the archetypes for the magus is bad. The hexcrafter gains Hex Arcana, which indirectly changes Magus Arcana without specifying that it actually alters or changes or replaces the arcana class feature. But on a second read its pretty straightforward that it does alter it.

As for longevity vs. losing spell recall, I plan on mostly using first level spells and pearls of power. Mostly saving my 2nd and higher level spells for utility. Keep in mind that if I do have enforcer, a cruel scimitar, arcane strike/riving strike/possibly other witch hexes than I have a solid in combat ability to 'flurry' with Brand and stack Shaken/Sickened on things and fallback to hexes from distance. Out of combat I'll have every knowledge skill as a class skill so I'll be far more useful from that bard dip.

The dip in bard saves me two feats (i.e., weapon finesse and dervish dance), gives me lot more class skills which will be nice with my higher INT, enough rounds of +2 Inspire Courage for myself (makes up for the BAB loss) to last 1-2 combats a day (more with the harmonic spell feat and spamming first level spells off pearls of power). It also makes me combat relevant and a proper debuffer from level 1. I will lose some effectiveness in higher levels, but it'll make my first few levels way more fun (its a common trade-off that I make in most of my builds because PFS can be painful at low levels without some martial prowess).

I would like to see why Spell Combat doesn't work with Dervish Dance. That would largely invalidate the entire build, so if there is some errata somewhere I'd love to know.

Grand Lodge

Consider the soothsayer hex. It will make sure that what the which hex you land is there on your turn (evil eye would be my choice).

Dervish Dance works currently. A lot of people expect that it will be errated in line with the other dex to damage feats at some point. Occasionally, people get the current dex to damage erratas mixed up with dirvish dance.

I have the same habbit on one level dipping but I have stated planing to train out of them around level 7.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I love Herolab but they often initially depend on "this modifies/alters" and only via tickets filed against these issues do they correct the stacking. So it's beneficial to remember these are coded quickly in an effort to get them out the same month the book releases.

As for Spell Combat / Dervish Dance:

Slashing Grace says wrote:
You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.
Dervish Dance says wrote:
You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.

Spell Combat is in effect TWF with your second weapon a spell. You will need to ask your GM if using Spell Combat counts as using/carrying a weapon in your second hand. Plan the playing of your character around the GM's answer to that question, and plan for not having it if you play in PFS with multiple GMs.

Dark Archive

James Risner wrote:

I love Herolab but they often initially depend on "this modifies/alters" and only via tickets filed against these issues do they correct the stacking. So it's beneficial to remember these are coded quickly in an effort to get them out the same month the book releases.

As for Spell Combat / Dervish Dance:

Slashing Grace says wrote:
You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.
Dervish Dance says wrote:
You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.

Spell Combat is in effect TWF with your second weapon a spell. You will need to ask your GM if using Spell Combat counts as using/carrying a weapon in your second hand. Plan the playing of your character around the GM's answer to that question, and plan for not having it if you play in PFS with multiple GMs.

I'm pretty sure this is PFS legal and is a very common recommended weapon build for the Magus. The ability states:

"Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast... "

Thus "function much like" is not equivalent to "is the same as". A spell is not a weapon, thus Dervish Dance is fine. If they wanted to they could do a campaign clarification to put it in line with fencing grace/slashing grace stating that the hand cannot otherwise be occupied. But as it stands it is PFS legal and has been for years. If I was carrying a weapon in my offhand then I would take TWF penalties, not this specific abilities' penalties for attacking twice with one hand.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

How it interacts in PFS is entirely up to the GM. There is no official answer that it works, so you are entirely dependent on your PFS GM's interpretation.

I've found guides tend to be often advocating things that are not considered "RAW" by all. So the fact a guide suggests the build shouldn't be taken to mean there is consensus on how the ability works.


right, They advocate "RAW" by 80%+ Thus it's good enough that the rule means that version.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Maybe I'm reading different guides, as I've seen a lot are flat out wrong that ultimately get FAQ/Errata invalidating the guide. Look at the Monk Druid guide using FCT as an example.


James Risner wrote:
Maybe I'm reading different guides, as I've seen a lot are flat out wrong that ultimately get FAQ/Errata invalidating the guide. Look at the Monk Druid guide using FCT as an example.

You mean the one that was following the Current FAQs on FCT that got invalidated when they randomly errata'd it?

That's like saying, "Look at all the guides saying go half-elf oracle for the elf FCB to get +1 to a revelation every 2 levels. Those guys sure had a risky view of what the RAW was. 1/6 was obviously a valid RAW reading that should have been considered when 1/2 was printed."

Also, I'm curious as to if you accurately predicted the most recent FAQ the PDT just issued.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Chess Pwn wrote:

You mean the one that was following the Current FAQs on FCT that got invalidated when they randomly errata'd it?

Also, I'm curious as to if you accurately predicted the most recent FAQ the PDT just issued.

Actually that errata was known to be likely because people were misinterpreting "monk unarmed" as size bump up your naturals x sizes. Which wasn't "swap your unarmed for your natural" they said they meant. So you could have bet on that being errataed.

I didn't discuss that bow FAQ. So I'm unsure what I'd have went with. It makes sense tho.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

The hexcrafter blade bound guide has been pointed out to be wrong many times on here. It hasn't been updated so either the author disagrees or no one has pointed it out to the author.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I recall reading a comment from the author that indicated he disagrees, stating something along the lines of the alteration being secondary or indirect or something. At my table, it's legal, not that it matters.

The dervish dance one has not been FAQ'd yet, to my knowledge, like slahing/fencing grace, though there was a general assumption (in threads I read) that it would be at some point. With the addition of blade tutor's spirit, I'm back in the strength magus build camp anyway. Unfortunately, I'm the GM, so I get to play mostly support and/or NPCs, and I get to watch my players with their magus builds instead. ;)

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

There are a large number of people who haven't read the archetype stacking rules or have a very narrow view of what alter or replace means. The developers have many times commented and made a number of FAQ like two archetypes that add the same class skill to your class skill list don't stack.

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