I want to preface saying that I think the new alchemist is fantastic. Most if not all the complaints I had about the class were solved and I was really happy when I could take an old character concept that I had for an alchemist that I didn't try yet because I didn't like how the alchemist was in the system. With that said, I feel that, unless you are playing a high level campaign, mutagenist is a worse choice than almost every other research field.
First, even if this isn't a problem of the mutagenist itself, almost any other research field can decide to use their versatile vials or advanced alchemy to create mutagens and still have more than plenty of either to use in combat. Mutagens are usually a 1/combat kind of thing so its likely most of the time you won't need more than one (certain feats and effects can change that though) so even if mutagenists have "infinite" of them I don't see that as being a huge selling point for the class.
Second, the mutagenist's field benefit is...okay. Temp HP is welcomed, but if I'm a chirurgeon for example and I take Combine Elixir later down the line (and why I wouldn't) I could easily just take any mutagen and combine it with a numbing tonic for effectively the same benefit but renewing itself every turn.
Third, the effect of your field vials to to suppress the drawback you take from one mutagen currently affecting you until the beginning of your next turn feels weird. Unless you play your mutagenist as if playing a martial I don't think most mutagenist will have the actions to take a mutagen every turn to supress the drawback, and to be fair, even if you did have enough actions I don't think you'll want to use them for this. Most of the "combat" mutagens had their drawbacks dialed back a little, like bestial mutagen not having a penalty to AC anymore. If this suppresed the drawback until the mutagen expires I would like it much better, but as is I think its kind of a trap option to use mutagens every turn to supress drawbacks (except you want to do some combination of cognitive + bestial or war blood mutagen at 13+ level).
I do like the mutagenist's field discovery, advanced vials, and greater field discovery effects, but I feel they come a little too late (specially the greater field discovery effect). I feel all the other research fields have really unique and interesting ways to use their specialized alchemical items while mutagenist has to wait to 13th level to do that. Don't get me wrong though, you can do really good stuff with the mutagenist's greater field discovery effect, but I don't think much would be lost if each effect was received one instance earlier (so the field discovery effect would replace the field vials effect, the advanced vials effect would replace the field discovery effect, and the greater field discovery effect replaced the advanded vials effect). The current field vials effect could be buffed and become the new greater field discovery effect.
I'll repeat that I think the alchemist is fantastic, but when trying to represent the concept I had for the alchemist I wanted to play I felt that it was much better to take chirurgeon rather tha mutagenist and take the alchemist feats that interact with the mutagens that I want rather than play a mutagenist because the other way around I can still be a martial-ish alchemist that has a ton of other options to do with their vials like throwing them around like bombs to heal people. Just my 2c.
The main "problem" of mutagenist IMO is the lack of a really good offensive mutagen or mutagenist feat that gives way more ofensive power than just incread the dice size and add deadly d10 trait.
With exception of Bestial Mutagen all others mutagens are defensive or utility focused. So the best that a mutagenist can get is become with the same offensive power that any martial that has Str KAS can be with a d12 weapon but without any extra damage ability that most others martials get and due how new alchemist archetype works now these martials and fighters can get access to +4 item bonus that this mutagem gives all day long (you have enough vials and advanced alchemy to do this with a mutagen that have 1 hour duration with no cost).
But we need to remember that mutagenists aren't restricted to use just mutagens. You still can use elixirs to heal yourself or get some good effect and poisons to try to improve your damage and debuff or even bombos to debuff too like via skunk bomb does even in a splash (good to debuff while are in MAP). So maybe a mutagenist can work well (may not fantastic but well) in hand of an experienced player that will use all the alchemist versatility in its favor.
and due how new alchemist archetype works now these martials and fighters can get access to +4 item bonus that this mutagem gives all day long (you have enough vials and advanced alchemy to do this with a mutagen that have 1 hour duration with no cost).
Yeah, I noticed that too. This kinda makes witcher-style characters more possible I guess.
Energy and War Blood (uncommon) are offensive mutagens that aren’t bestial. There’s another in Treasure Vault that gives an item bonus with weapons and a variable (not great) secondary buff. I forget the name.
And bestial offering agile to drop down a die size is quite nice, it’s not all about the die itself and the added deadly trait.
Curiously Energy Mutagens doesn't work with unarmed attacks so it cannot be merged with bestial mutagem. It maybe useful if you get some Weapon Familiarity (you can use with a simple weapon too but...) feat but in fact it could give some welcome extra damage. It won't be a Sneak Attack damage but in fact is better than nothing.
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I do hope that there's a clarification on deadly working with bestial mutagen. Raw you still need hand wraps to increase the number of extra damage dice you deal on a crit since it's dependent on striking runes.
I do hope that there's a clarification on deadly working with bestial mutagen. Raw you still need hand wraps to increase the number of extra damage dice you deal on a crit since it's dependent on striking runes.
Iirc the wording does not simply prevent stacking with runes, but outright blocks those Bestial Strikes from benefiting from Striking runes. It would mean that even if you buy the runes just for Deadly scaling, the Bestial Mutagen still blocks them from boosting Deadly damage, lol.
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but if I'm a chirurgeon for example and I take Combine Elixir later
As a Bestial Mutagenist, Combine Elixir is excellent.
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You can probably not bother with Striking Runes, although a late game Alchemist (L15+) now has as good or (usually) better accuracy than anyone other than a Fighter or Gunslinger if they want it. I'm personally of the opinion that they'll clarify that Bestial will grant the extra 2 Deadly dice at Levels 11 and 17, but we'll see.
The reason you still want Handwraps and why you want to upgrade their Potency rune is Property Runes. For example, you can have my Mutagenist's Astral Rune over his cold, dead body... and he's a Mutagenist. He is incredibly hard to kill... Now, more than ever.
Are there any scenarios were spending an action to negate the downsides of a mutagen is clearly worthwhile?
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Are there any scenarios were spending an action to negate the downsides of a mutagen is clearly worthwhile?
Quicksilver Mutagen makes you lose the use of one of your skills. If you absolutely need it then the action is worth it.
Now, the cases will be extremely rare. But honestly, I haven't understood the point of VVs: They seem always lackluster compared to actual items, whatever your Research Field.
Are there any scenarios were spending an action to negate the downsides of a mutagen is clearly worthwhile?
Yes there are.
For example an Anemos have weakness vs cold but it also does electricity damage in its Strikes so if you use an Energy Mutagem to try to exploit it weakness this mutagem also will give you an electricity weakness too. But a mutagenist can drink a Versatile Vial to negate the electricity weakness that the Energyt Mutagen gives to Electricity to try to prevent an extra 5 damage per Strike. It's not so great but if you don't have a better use for your 3rd action is an option.
Are there any scenarios were spending an action to negate the downsides of a mutagen is clearly worthwhile?
Quicksilver Mutagen makes you lose the use of one of your skills. If you absolutely need it then the action is worth it.
Now, the cases will be extremely rare. But honestly, I haven't understood the point of VVs: They seem always lackluster compared to actual items, whatever your Research Field.
QVs are to avoid running out of VVs or give you a fall back when you do. You can only use one additive per round so a quick bomb QV is better use of a MAP strike than a real bomb.
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Are there any scenarios were spending an action to negate the downsides of a mutagen is clearly worthwhile?
Quicksilver Mutagen makes you lose the use of one of your skills. If you absolutely need it then the action is worth it.
Now, the cases will be extremely rare. But honestly, I haven't understood the point of VVs: They seem always lackluster compared to actual items, whatever your Research Field.
Just a quick correction: you're thinking of Silvertongue Mutagen, not Quicksilver.
Negating Silvertongue's Drawback is a good way to go though. As this will likely be out of combat, that action economy won't matter too much. And avoiding Silvertongue's Recall Knowledge failure->Critical Failure Drawback is definitely a good way to go if you need to remember something.
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"This guy sure has a silver tongue, but maaaan does he have a drinking problem, just can't stop chugging those little vials between every sentence he speaks. Still, he's so charming I'll look past it."
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"This guy sure has a silver tongue, but maaaan does he have a drinking problem, just can't stop chugging those little vials between every sentence he speaks. Still, he's so charming I'll look past it."
HAHA make an add for Golarians most interesting man. I don't always chug these lil vials but when I do I am super interesting.
The main "problem" of mutagenist IMO is the lack of a really good offensive mutagen or mutagenist feat that gives way more ofensive power than just incread the dice size and add deadly d10 trait.
With exception of Bestial Mutagen all others mutagens are defensive or utility focused. So the best that a mutagenist can get is become with the same offensive power that any martial that has Str KAS can be with a d12 weapon but without any extra damage ability that most others martials get and due how new alchemist archetype works now these martials and fighters can get access to +4 item bonus that this mutagem gives all day long (you have enough vials and advanced alchemy to do this with a mutagen that have 1 hour duration with no cost).
But we need to remember that mutagenists aren't restricted to use just mutagens. You still can use elixirs to heal yourself or get some good effect and poisons to try to improve your damage and debuff or even bombos to debuff too like via skunk bomb does even in a splash (good to debuff while are in MAP). So maybe a mutagenist can work well (may not fantastic but well) in hand of an experienced player that will use all the alchemist versatility in its favor.
I respectfully disagree. The problem isn't lack of mutagens. Bestial is legit great and all you'll need on a melee alchemist most of the time. The problem is the research field just doesn't meaningfully improve the mutagen usage for most of the game, particularly if you're prebuffing And a normal alchemist can always be provided.
Also, gotta disagree with your martial comparison. D10 weapons with agile and deadly are pretty swell. And sure, other martials can take the archetype to get most of the bestial perks. But the alchemist can use their feats on archetypes as well. The agile claws work on sneak attack. Flurry of blows is cool too. (The archetype frequency nerf matters less than you'd think because the action compression will matter the most on your set up round.)
Martials also have worse action economy if they get surprised by a combat without pre-puffing and the alchemist can be buffed every waking moment of the day. All that said, martial who optimizes for it can probably still do more damage. But they can't provide the sheer versatility of the new alchemist on the moment.
It seems like Bestial and other mutagens can be rather good but the Mutagenist isnt exceptionly good at using them.
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Well another class won’t get the deadly and die increase, another specialist probably won’t go strength instead of dex. A chirurgeon is probably the most likely competitor.
Are there any scenarios were spending an action to negate the downsides of a mutagen is clearly worthwhile?
Yes there are.
For example an Anemos have weakness vs cold but it also does electricity damage in its Strikes so if you use an Energy Mutagem to try to exploit it weakness this mutagem also will give you an electricity weakness too. But a mutagenist can drink a Versatile Vial to negate the electricity weakness that the Energyt Mutagen gives to Electricity to try to prevent an extra 5 damage per Strike. It's not so great but if you don't have a better use for your 3rd action is an option.
I guess it's better action economy than macking frost vials.
The Bombercan just create a bomb that does cold damage on the fly,right?| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
On the contrary, I think Mutagenist is probably the best at using Mutagens, largely because their priorities allow them to combine Mutagens with other Elixirs more than other Alchemists.
Take my 10th level Mutagenist. Remastered, he will have Combine Elixirs, and he will have the Versatile Vials available to use with that Feat.
Bombers want to keep most of their Vials for Additive Bombs. Chirurgeons want them available for healing Elixirs and tools. Toxicologists will be stopping outside every door to Poison up their blowgun darts and other weapons (I really like Pernicious Poison, and it's an Additive feat.) Mutagenists? They can prioritize improving themselves.
My 10th level guy will activate his Collar on Initiative for a 5 minute Bestial (yeah, Bestial will be coming out of his Advanced Alchemy pool) and some temp HP (which may come in handy if he's low in the Initiative order.) First round? Combine Elixirs for Moderate Numbing and Soothing Tonics.
13th level? Probably going to max out the Advanced Alchemy pool with four Sanguine Mutagens, which he'll use all day (Extend Elixirs). Bestial in the collar as usual. First round, Combine Elixirs for Numbing Tonic and a Blood Booster. Or maybe a Blood Booster and a Bravo's Brew. Or...
And if he needs to add in more, he'll be able to. Should be fun.
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On the contrary, I think Mutagenist is probably the best at using Mutagens, largely because their priorities allow them to combine Mutagens with other Elixirs more than other Alchemists.
Take my 10th level Mutagenist. Remastered, he will have Combine Elixirs, and he will have the Versatile Vials available to use with that Feat.
Bombers want to keep most of their Vials for Additive Bombs. Chirurgeons want them available for healing Elixirs and tools. Toxicologists will be stopping outside every door to Poison up their blowgun darts and other weapons (I really like Pernicious Poison, and it's an Additive feat.) Mutagenists? They can prioritize improving themselves.
My 10th level guy will activate his Collar on Initiative for a 5 minute Bestial (yeah, Bestial will be coming out of his Advanced Alchemy pool) and some temp HP (which may come in handy if he's low in the Initiative order.) First round? Combine Elixirs for Moderate Numbing and Soothing Tonics.
13th level? Probably going to max out the Advanced Alchemy pool with four Sanguine Mutagens, which he'll use all day (Extend Elixirs). Bestial in the collar as usual. First round, Combine Elixirs for Numbing Tonic and a Blood Booster. Or maybe a Blood Booster and a Bravo's Brew. Or...
And if he needs to add in more, he'll be able to. Should be fun.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but literally the only thing your research field is doing for you in your level 10 example is granting some temp HP which wouldn't stack with your numbing elixir. Everything else can be done by any alchemist. I think you're conflating the play style of a mutagenist with the research field. Again, mutagens are great now, but they are universally available. The play style of mutagen focused characters is great. It just feels like you'd be better off focusing on mutagens while having a different research field that rounds out your abilities.
Level 13 changes things, but man that's a long time to wait. And if you spent 12 levels guzzling mutagens first the GM will probably let you retrain into mutagenist.
On the contrary, I think Mutagenist is probably the best at using Mutagens, largely because their priorities allow them to combine Mutagens with other Elixirs more than other Alchemists...
Bombers want to keep most of their Vials for Additive Bombs. Chirurgeons want them available for healing Elixirs and tools. Toxicologists will be stopping outside every door to Poison up their blowgun darts and other weapons (I really like Pernicious Poison, and it's an Additive feat.) Mutagenists? They can prioritize improving themselves.
This seems like you are saying every other subclass has has better things to do with their resources.
That doesn't make Mutagenist exceptionly good at using mutagens, it just means every other subclass is (more) exceptional at their own specialty.I think Mutagenists just got short changed in the remaster.
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Honestly, I don't think Research Fields make you much better at their thing.
Chirurgeon gives you nearly nothing before level 13, too (Medicine is now useless for an Alchemist). You can grab most of Bomber's Research Field through feats (nothing prevents you from taking Calculated Splash). And Toxicologist mostly removes Immunities to Poison, which is campaign-dependent: if you don't face much Undeads/Constructs you should not care much about it.
The temp hps from Mutagenist are rather useful to a class with 8hp and not many boosts for Constitution. And the level 13 ability is clearly why you play a Mutagenist. So I think the Research Field is fine as long as you play a Bestial Mutagenist who takes quite some heat on the frontline.
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Just pasting a ORC scan of Mutagenist Features from a YT vid.
Mutagenist:
You focus on bizarre mutagenic transformations that sacrifice one aspect of a creature’s physical or psychological being in order to strengthen another.
Formulas Two common 1st-level alchemical mutagens.Field Benefit | When you use a mutagen, you gain a number of temporary Hit Points equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum 0] plus half your level. These temporary Hit Points last for 1 minute or until the mutagen’s duration expires, whichever comes first. You can’t gain temporary HP from drinking a mutagen again for 1 minute.
Field Vials | You can drink the contents of one your versatile vials to suppress the drawback you take from one mutagen currently affecting you until the beginning of your next turn. A vial used this way loses the acid, bomb, and splash traits and gains the elixir trait. If you have more than one drawback due to Combine Elixirs or a similar ability, drinking the vial suppresses one drawback of your choice.
Field Discovery (5th) | The mutagens flowing through your blood have altered your body chemistry. When you roll a Fortitude save while affected by a mutagen and dislike the result, you can end the effect of the mutagen to reroll the save. This is a fortune effect.
Advanced Vials (11th) | When you drink one of your field vials, you also gain resistance to physical damage for the same duration. The resistance is equal to half your level.
Greater Field Discovery (13th) | If you imbibe another mutagen while you are under the effects of a mutagen, you can gain the benefits and the drawbacks of both mutagens at once, despite the fact that they both have the polymorph trait and would not normally function together. If you come under the effects of any further mutagens while benefiting from two mutagens, you lose the benefit of one of the former mutagens of your choice, while retaining the drawbacks of all the mutagens. If you are under the effects of two mutagens and you come under the effect of a non-mutagen polymorph effect, you lose the benefits of the mutagens while retaining the drawbacks of both. Your field vial benefit to one mutagen of your choice.
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Yeah, I am really not a fan of the core Field Benefit being be a small pop of tHP with a full-combat length cooldown.
First, because the Features & Feats seem to expect the Muta to drink more than 1 mutagen per combat, yet this denies their single core Feature from helping at all for the 2nd and onward applications.
Second, tHP's such a specific benefit with specific implications. It pushes the Muta into playstyles that involve taking damage. That gets doubly enforced by the L11 dmg resistance, which further shuns Mutas that are on the backline. Bomber throws bombs, Tox uses poisons, seems to be no problem with those Features reinforcing that offensive strategy.
IMO, Paizo have completely misinterpreted what a Mutagneist is.
I would suggest the entire concept of mutagens is not enhancing a single play niche, but specializing in mutagens is to specialize in flexibility, to react to the new context and consume the right polymorphic concoction to match.
The very idea that Paizo would push Mutagenists to "main" Bestial, Warblood, or any single mutagen... is really, really crummy and sad.
It's antithetical to the concept, and leaves the entire item list in the dust. Yet Paizo seem to be doing their damnedest to enforce and encourage that "melee Muta" over-specialization.
Like, I can't believe I'm saying it, but the old Mutagenic Flashback understood this better than any of the new Features. It let the Muta pick any mutagen they had drunk prior, encouraging the Alch to both think about what they are drinking and rewarding them for prior demonstrated flexibility via having more options in the moment of the Flashback.
This remaster just boxes the Muta as a brawler.
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I can at least suggest that any Mutagenist thinking about going all-in on Bestial and likes that "ravage them in melee" style considers this alternative:
Graft Technician + L3 claws (50gp +1 investment) + Clawdancer Dedication.
This is a fair amount of hassle to avoid using Bestials, but freeing up your ability to pick any mutagen is IMO well worth the trade, and there's other upsides.
Clawdancer comes with 1d8 finesse kicks at baseline, and it's got multiple options for skipping the action tax of the opening Stance shift.
Another selling point is that Alchemist more than most can appreciate kick attacks leaving both hands available for whatever they want. Clawdancer is a really good match for Alchemists that want to use Handwraps and throw Strikes, is all I'm saying.
I must admit, I really focused on the feild vials and field discovery.
To me,they feel even worse than those of the other subclasses, and that really hurts the appeal.
What if the Mutagenist could just flat out ignore the downsides of mutagenss?
No need for special vials or action compression.
Just a totally unique ability that was NOT a feat, so it could not be poached.
Still only one mutagen at a time, till later levels.
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Correct me if I'm wrong here, but literally the only thing your research field is doing for you in your level 10 example is granting some temp HP which wouldn't stack with your numbing elixir.
Don't underestimate the strategic value of the the Mutagen Temp HP. Its a great buffer until you get the opportunity to use something like a Numbing Tonic.
Numbing is fantastic, but it can be rather impractical. It's a one minute duration Buff, which means that you basically cannot use it in advance unless you are positive that hostilities will ensue immediately after.
So, Levels One to Four, you carry your Mutagen in your hand and chug it. Now, you might have a Numbing in your other hand to activate in the same round. You might not. The 3 or 4 temp HP from the Mutagen will beat the 2 HP from a minor Numbing regardless.
Fifth level it becomes even more strategic. You activate a Collar on Initiative and gain the temp HP (usually 6.) If you take a hit between Initiative and your first Action, it's definitely served a good purpose.
I'll admit the Field Vial benefits leave something to be desired, at least until 17th. Although I keep having this picture in my head of having a VV in hand in order to pull off something ridiculous while under the effect of Choker-Arm Mutagen. I also keep thinking that a two-hand-free Build could get some mileage out of keeping a VV in hand to gain the Advanced Vials ability in an emergency.
Man, now that I think about it, it's a shame you can't use Combine Elixirs to combine a Quick Vial with an Elixir. I can definitely think of some situations that would come in handy.
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Honestly, I don't think Research Fields make you much better at their thing.
Chirurgeon gives you nearly nothing before level 13, too (Medicine is now useless for an Alchemist). You can grab most of Bomber's Research Field through feats (nothing prevents you from taking Calculated Splash). And Toxicologist mostly removes Immunities to Poison, which is campaign-dependent: if you don't face much Undeads/Constructs you should not care much about it.
The temp hps from Mutagenist are rather useful to a class with 8hp and not many boosts for Constitution. And the level 13 ability is clearly why you play a Mutagenist. So I think the Research Field is fine as long as you play a Bestial Mutagenist who takes quite some heat on the frontline.
Chirurgeon allows you to easily handweave healing between encounters because you, quite literally, have infinite healing. The only exception being if a combat starts almost immediately after finishing the previous one, but if you have at least 10 minutes, between using Crafting as Medicine (even for feat prerequisites!) and a versatile vial + a quick vial you can heal your party to full HP easily between encounters. I admit this isn't something particularly hard to do in PF2e, but I feel a chirurgeon can do it right from 1st level and very efficiently. Also, saying that toxicologist is useless because "if you don't face enemies immune to poison it doesn't matter" is like saying "why care about healing if I'm not planning to take damage". The biggest problem of poison-related builds were that you could easily run into situations in which you were useles; a toxicologist doesn't have that problem and has a quite literally stash of poisons to use in combat. Make a couple of war blood mutagens with advanced alchemy and poison your foes with martial (or higher in some levels) accuracy.
That's kind of the thing with mutagenist. I see all the other research fields having their niche that can't be easily replaced by the others, and if you want to use mutagens with your character, is Paizo really selling me the idea of a mutagenist just for a couple of temp HP when I can easily use my advanced alchemy vials to create mutagens and then dedicate my versatile vials to using alchemical items of my research field?
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I admit this isn't something particularly hard to do in PF2e, but I feel a chirurgeon can do it right from 1st level and very efficiently.
You answered your question yourself: infinite out of combat healing is trivial to achieve and being better at it doesn't have a lot of value. Out of combat healing is in general handwaved unless there's a time constraint.
The biggest problem of poison-related builds were that you could easily run into situations in which you were useles;
The biggest problem of Poison is enemies's high Fortitude saves. And yes, if you don't face immune enemies it's useless. Lots of campaigns feature very few immune ennemies. No campaign features no damage.
The Toxicologist bonus is the kind that gets easily overvalued, people dislike the concept of Immunity. But most campaigns tend to features enemies of the same kind so it's easy to handwave if you're in the right campaign. On the other hand, in Blood Lord, it's very much necessary and all non-Bomber Alchemist should be Toxicologists.