Dogfolk (10rp)
STARTING RACIAL TRAITS
-Ability Score Racial Traits: Dogfolk are strong and sociable, but often lack common sense. They gain +2 str, +2 cha, -2 wis.
-Size: Dogfolk are medium creatures and thus receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
-Type: Dogfolk are human with the dogfolk subtype.
-Base Speed: Dogfolk have a base speed of 30ft.
-Languages: Dogfolk begin play speaking Common and Dogfolk. Dogfolk with high intelligence can choose from the following: Dwarven, Elven, Halfing, Orc, and Syvlan.
Defense Racial Traits
-Stability: Dogfolk gain a +4 racial bonus to CMD against bullrush and trip attempts.
-Eternal Hope: Dogfolk gain a +2 racial saving throw bonus against fear and despair effects. Once per day, after rolling a 1 on a d20, the dogfolk may reroll and use the second result.
Feats and Skills Racial Traits
-Flexible Bonus Feat: Dogfolk gain a bonus feat at level 1 to represent their varied nature.
-Skill Training: Acrobatics and Survival are always class skills for Dogfolk.
Movement
-Sprinter: Dogfolk receive a 10ft bonus to their land speed when using charge, run, or withdraw actions.
Senses Racial Trait
-Low Light Vision: Dogfolk can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
RACIAL SUBTYPES
First Responder
Dogfolk can easily be trained to overcome virtually everything to others in need. First Responders are quick to act. First Responders lose the flexible bonus feat but gain the following.
-Fast: Dogfolk gain a 10ft bonus to their landspeed.
-Quick Reactions: Dogfolks gain Improved Initiative as a bonus feat at 1st level.
-Fearless: Dogfolks gain a +2 moral saving throw bonus against fear effects.
Show Dog
Some Dogfolk embrace their charismatic elements over their strength, proving their worth in other ways. Show Dogs lose the flexible bonus feat, stability, and sprinter but gain the following.
-Skilled: Dogfolks gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.
-Skill Bonus: Dogfolks gain a +1 racial bonus to Acrobatics and Diplomacy.
Feral
Dogfolks that enter the wild sometimes find more of themselves, usually finding their canine roots. Feral Dogfolk lose the Flexible bonus feat, stability, and sprinter but gain the following.
-Ability Score: Feral Dogfolk are tougher than normal dogfolk and wiser than their breathen. Feral Dogfolk gain +2 Con, +2 cha, -2 int.
-Bite Attack: Feral Dogfolk gain a natural bite attack that deals 1d6 points of damage.
-Cornered Fury: When feral dogfolk are below half HP and have no allies within 30ft, they gain a +2 racial bonus to attack rolls and to Armor Class.
I would think that dogs are more wise than intelligent. -2 wis seems odd.
You should reconsider acrobatics and survival as class skills. If you want them to be natural jumpers, then a boost to base speed would be better. I don't think of dogs as having the balance of cats. Survival sort of makes sense, but animals in pathfinder don't get survival as a class skill. Also, thats 4 RP.
The show dog seems to give up a lot for what is gained.
I'm on the edge about Wis vs Int for Dogfolk. Dogs can be trained well, which I believe is more int. If I could give -1 Int/Wis, I would, but that would also hugely benefit the race and its ability scores.
Skill Training is 1 RP. Pick up two skills, these are always class skills. Dogs do have at least some dexterity to them, which is why Acrobatics is a class skill, rather than having a +2 to dex (also because Catfolk are already +Dex/Cha). I was thinking about Swim as a class skill over Acrobatics, but swim is just bleh as a skill and the race is already +2 str to help swim checks. I might change it to heal checks, since the idea of dogs helping people and being there to heal emotionally.
Show dog was just a funny idea. Bonus feat is powerful but only 4 RP, just like bonus skill points. Oddly Stability and Sprinter are only 1 RP each while a +1 skill bonus is 1 RP. I wasn't sure what to do with Show Dog to not make it more of a "skill monkey" without ruining it. I may trade out the skill bonus for Silvered Tongue and have it be worth 1 RP more.
I love this. I have often had the same thought that there should be dog people and there are no real reasons why not.
I'm on the edge about Wis vs Int for Dogfolk. Dogs can be trained well, which I believe is more int. If I could give -1 Int/Wis, I would, but that would also hugely benefit the race and its ability scores.
Yeah I think dogmen should be inherently trusting of others, which would reflect a lower wisdom score. However, a -2 Wis, -2 Int might also be a solid build, and you'd get some RP back to add to some more racial features. Maybe all dogfolk gain a natural bite attack but the feral have damage step higher than the others?
I agree with the whole "Acrobatics" thing. I'd switch it with Perception, since Dogs have very keen senses of hearing and smelling, similar to that of Elves/Half-Elves. Combined with them being used to search things that most humans can't (or at least not as efficiently), makes the most sense compared to them being able to move tactically.
Also, no Scent ability? There are other races that get Scent, and they usually aren't very notable for having an excellent sense of smell. Dogfolk lacking a Scent ability is a glaring design and mechanical oversight that should be rectified.
Eternal Hope doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to have, as not all dogs (or canines in general) are "glass half full" kind of animals. Wolves in particular. I'd consider substituting this for the Scent ability, as hinted at above, though something along the lines of a standard Bite Attack would also work.
Everything else seems to be okay, though. I won't bother with the racial subtypes, since those aren't particularly interesting, but there is great promise in this race design; it just needs more tweaking, and just a smidge more better execution.
**EDIT** I just remembered why there really isn't a Dogfolk race...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
For what it's worth, Bestiary 6 includes a "wolf-folk" playable race in the Rougarou. Seems to be the official Paizo answer to this particular niche.
Interesting about beastiary 6, I'll have to pick it up.
I don't know why I didn't think of a cent and perception, mainly because I think of it as vision only. Will change that and add eternal hope to first responder at least.
You go a little too far with the race and made them overpowered.
You should remove the bonus feat. Having a bonus feat means this race is more powerful than humans. Humans are the upperbound benchmark of race balance as they're arguably the strongest race in the core rulebook, useful across all classes and builds, and competitive with all but the strongest published races.
As a consequence to the above point, you should either scrap or totally rework the First Responder heritage. This heritage is way too powerful anyway as it trades a feat for a specific feat that's very useful for all characters AND an advanced-tier racial trait that standard PC races shouldn't have.
Interesting about beastiary 6, I'll have to pick it up.
I don't know why I didn't think of a cent and perception, mainly because I think of it as vision only. Will change that and add eternal hope to first responder at least.
Perception doesn't work just for vision:
Your senses allow you to notice fine details and alert you to danger. Perception covers all five senses, including sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell.
And Scent would be something inherent of dogs, as it's their biggest feature (besides excellent hearing, of course).
Looking at everyone else's suggestions, the Bonus Feat is a little much, and gives them more power than even a Human should have. I'd replace the feat with a 20 or 30 foot Scent ability, substitute the Acrobatics with Perception, and replace Eternal Hope with a Bite Attack, or a bonus to Perception.
Expanding on the other subtypes, the First Responder has some glaring issues with the replacements. The Fast option should replace the Sprinter option, for starters. Second, as suggested, Improved Initiative for free at 1st level is extremely powerful, whether it replaces Scent or even a free feat in general. Fearless could replace the existing Eternal Hope.
Next, the Show Dog gains so little for what it switches out. I'd take the extra Skill Point and have it replace the Feat/Scent ability they'd get. I'd also substitute the Perception/Survival skill ranks with Acrobatics and a single Perform skill, along with substituting Eternal Hope for Skill Training in a single Craft, Perform, or Profession skill of their choice.
The Feral subtype should be called Wolfborn (sounds cooler IMO), and while I agree with some of your options, I'd want to substitute the Cornered Fury with a +1 Natural Armor bonus, since their hides are generally more durable than others of their kind. I'd also maintain the Strength benefit, switch the Charisma with a Constitution Bonus, and replace the Intelligence penalty with a Charisma penalty (as they are less friendly).
It's great to hear that wolf-folk are coming to official PF...
As for your dog-folk, I applaud the effort, especially the effort to address how varied dogs are. I hope my comments are helpful to you.
Flexible (2 RP): Members of this race gain a +2 bonus to any two ability scores.
The issue is then which two! I think I'd specify Str & Cha, as you did, but swap Str out for the subtypes.
Stubborn (2 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race gain a +2 racial bonus on Will saving throws to resist spells and spell-like abilities of the enchantment (charm) and enchantment (compulsion) subschools. In addition, if a member of this race fails such a save, it receives another save 1 round later to prematurely end the effect (assuming the spell or spell-like ability has a duration greater than 1 round). This second save is made at the same DC as the first. If the member of the race has a similar ability from another source (such as a rogue's slippery mind class feature), it can only use one of these abilities per round, but can try the other on the second round if the first reroll ability fails.
Focused Study (4 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: At 1st, 8th, and 16th level, members of this race gain Skill Focus in a skill of their choice as a bonus feat.
{Second thoughts: I'd do this, and eliminate specific skills as discussed above.}
Terrain Stride (1 RP): Prerequisite: Normal speed; Benefit: Choose a ranger favored terrain type. Members of this race can move through natural difficult terrain at their normal speed while within the chosen terrain. Magically altered terrain affects them normally.
However, I grant you that we had the advantage of knowing that the game was set in hilly & mountainous terrain. I'd still go with Hills, I think.
{Sorry for having to figure out so painfully how to format this.}
I thought of the flexible feat as yhe perfect pick for dogfolk, but wasn't thinking about the power. I assumed the hard stats rather than the humans +2 floating would keep it in line, since you are going to always receive a will save penatly, something that martial like to have, and gave it a bonus to cha, making it only "optimal" for warrior type oracles and paladins.
I realize perception is more than just vision, I just keep forgetting that. Really bad habit. I'll change things around and post it again sooI also don't want to change Feral to +2 str/con -2 cha, mainly because that is every optimized non-paladins dream, also because that spread is worth 2 or 4 race points. Also +1 free armor ac? If I'm removing the bonus feat from dogfolk, I'm not giving feral that much.
Not really, since Gnolls are only 6 RP and have better benefits than what I've proposed.
I thought of the flexible feat as yhe perfect pick for dogfolk, but wasn't thinking about the power. I assumed the hard stats rather than the humans +2 floating would keep it in line, since you are going to always receive a will save penatly, something that martial like to have, and gave it a bonus to cha, making it only "optimal" for warrior type oracles and paladins.
Why would a dog race be more versatile than say...any other race? The only reason humans get a bonus feat is because the entire race revolves around being incredibly varied and versatile.
You also cannot justify the bonus feat by saying your dog race's ability scores aren't as good as a human's. A +2/+2/-2 is roughly as good as a +2 to one ability score of choice.
Overall, your race is too powerful. You're better off just nixing the bonus feat.
Dogelord Barkalot, the one true fursona!
I'd give em +Con rather than +Str, also the most important part is missing, not sure why they have bonus to Acrobatics but not Scent.
Not really, since Gnolls are only 6 RP and have better benefits than what I've proposed.
Gnolls have little flavor at all -- certainly nothing of the canine, in my opinion.
Well, here's my take:
Humanoid (Dogfolk) [0 RP]
Medium: Dogfolk have no bonuses or penalties due to their size. [0 RP]
Normal Speed: Dogfolk have a base speed of 30 feet. [0 RP]
Standard Ability Score: +2 CON, -2 DEX, +2 CHA; Dogfolk are hearty and friendly but not always graceful. [0 RP]
Standard Language: Dogfolk start with start with Common plus Barkken. Furthermore, members of this race with high Intelligence scores can choose from Dwarf, Elvish, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling or Sylvan. [0 RP]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bite: Dogfolk gain a natural bite attack, dealing damage equivalent to that of a creature two size categories lower than normal for their size (1d2 for Small, 1d3 for Medium). The bite is a primary attack, or a secondary attack if the creature is wielding manufactured weapons. [1 RP]
Low-Light Vision: Dogfolk can see twice as far as a race with normal vision in conditions of dim light. [1 RP]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Camouflage: Choose a ranger favored terrain type. You gain a +4 racial bonus on Stealth checks while within that terrain type. This choice must be made at character creation and cannot be changed later (it should be related to the breed of your dogfolk). [1 RP]
Eternal Hope: Dogfolk gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against fear and despair effects. Also, once per day, after a natural roll of 1 on a d20 roll, dogfolk may reroll and use the second result. [2 RP]
Scavenger: Dogfolk gain a +2 racial bonus on Appraise and Perception checks to find hidden objects (including traps and secret doors), determine whether food is spoiled, or identify a potion by taste. [2 RP]
Sociable: When dogfolk attempt to change a creature's attitude with a Diplomacy check and fail by 5 or more, they can try to influence the creature a second time even if 24 hours have not passed. [1 RP]
Scent: Dogfolk have the scent ability. [4 RP]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Enclave Protector: These dogfolk add +1 to the caster level of any abjuration spells they cast. They also gain the following spell-like abilities (the caster level is equal to the user's character level):
1/day—faerie fire, obscure object, sanctuary [2 RP] This replaces Camouflage and Sociable. [2 RP]
Envoy: These dogfolks are trained in divination. They must have an Intelligence score of 11 or higher. They gain the following spell-like abilities (the caster level is equal to the user's character level):
1/day—comprehend languages, detect magic, detect poison, read magic. This replaces Sociable. [1 RP]
Alternate Ability Scores: +2 DEX, -2 STR, +2 CHA; Guide dogs are more agile than most dogfolk but less strong. This replaces the standard ability scores. [0 RP]
Silent Hunter: These dogfolk reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5 and can make Stealth checks while running at a –20 penalty (this number includes the penalty reduction from this trait). This replaces Camouflage and Sociable. [2 RP]
Alternate Ability Scores: +2 DEX, -2 INT, +2 CHA; Hunting dogs are more agile than most dogfolk but tend not to be very scholarly. This replaces the standard ability scores. [0 RP]
Small: Small races gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty on combat maneuver checks and to their CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks. This replaces the Medium Size. The speed of these dogfolk is reduced to 20 ft.[0 RP]
Powerful Swimmer: These dogfolk receive a +10 foot bonus to their swim speed. This replaces Camouflage. [1 RP]
Long Runner: These dogfolk receive a +4 racial bonus on Constitution checks and Fortitude saves to avoid fatigue and exhaustion, as well as any other ill effects from running, forced marches, starvation, thirst, and hot or cold environments. This replaces Camouflage and Sociable. [2 RP]
Indagare, this is great! Mostly, LOL...
Emissary (1 RP): Once per day, these dogfolk can roll twice when making a Bluff or Diplomacy check and take the better roll.
Looking at your subtypes, I'm thinking I'd want to differentiate them by Ability Scores, as well, especially as I think about their RL counterparts.
Alternate Ability Scores: +2 CON, +2 INT, -2 CHA; Guard dogs are quick learners, but more suspicious than most dogfolk. This replaces the standard ability scores. [0 RP]
Alternate Ability Scores: -2 STR, +2 DEX, +2 WIS; Guide dogs are more agile than most dogfolk but not as strong, and substitute awareness of the world about them for the keen interest most dogfolk take in social interactions. This replaces the standard ability scores. [0 RP]
Alternate Ability Scores: -2 STR, +2 DEX, +2 CHA; Lap dogs are more agile than most dogfolk but not as strong. This replaces the standard ability scores. [0 RP]
But yes, looking at this write-up has been a lot of fun!
OK, I'm inspired to leap in now and create a playable, flexible race. I have, as I've said, a Dog-kin race that I've developed with Debnor, but it's an Advanced race, and very much tailored to a specific campaign. (Our dog-kin were based on a specific Spitz breed, the Icelandic sheepdog.)
It seems to me that the first step is to come up with a list of what types of dogs there are. Note that I plan to specify only some racial traits for all dogfolk, and there will be no default ability score mods. That is, I intend to allow no "mutts" -- every dogfolk character will have to pick one of these functions as the basis for their ability scores and their remaining racial traits. (Put it another way: you can say you have a mixed parentage, but you'll have to pick one racial package as predominate in you.) Yes, RL dogs are very complex, but games have to simplify!
So I went to the font of all knowledge: Wikipedia to come up with my proposed list. I'm sorting out the functions here a bit differently, however, because I want fewer categories, and no sub-categories at all. Obviously, once I go to the step of coming up with racial trait packages, the list may get altered. (I'm especially troubled about the incomplete overlap of Guarder & Herder.)
So before I put a lot more work into racial packages, I put this whole concept & list to you for comments & proposed revisions!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Battlecorgis!
So I went to the font of all knowledge: Wikipedia to come up with my proposed list. I'm sorting out the functions here a bit differently, however, because I want fewer categories, and no sub-categories at all. Obviously, once I go to the step of coming up with racial trait packages, the list may get altered. (I'm especially troubled about the incomplete overlap of Guarder & Herder.)
Attacker (like pit bulls or terriers)
Chaser (any sighthound)
Companion (any lapdog) {EtA: I'm tempted to name this one "Cuddler!"}
Guarder (an alarm-giver who doesn't herd)
Herder (serves as a guarder, too; see sheepdogs)
Retriever (like labradors)
Spotter (any pointer or setter)
Tracker (any scenthound)
Transporter (any coach or sled dog)
While I am, admittedly, biased, I don't have a real problem with splitting breeds out like this. And as for the Guarder/Herder overlap, well, there's nothing to say that two breeds can't have the same stat adjustments, but different racial traits.
I've had a few hours to think about my proposal, and I've altered it (already). All dogfolk have a +2 racial bonus to Cha, and a +2 bonus to one other ability score specified under their breed [2 RP]. This might give my dogfolk more of a sense of being one race, while still having seven distinct breeds.
I had intended to make the default size Medium and offer Small as an alternate racial trait, as Indagare did but more widely available. This now helps me differentiate breeds with the same second ability bonus. Chasers (DEX) & Spotters (WIS) cannot take Small-size, while Entertainers (DEX) & Trackers (WIS) have to. Attackers (STR), Herders (INT), & Retrievers (CON) have the option of either size.
SorrySleeping, I hope you got what you needed for your version!
I can cobble off of SorrySleeping & Indagare's efforts (shamelessly) for my main trait list... You'll see I've sort of changed my stance on mutts. Yes, they exist. No, you really don't want to play one.
~~~ Common Racial Traits ~~~
Dogfolk also get the racial traits specified under their breed.
Flexible Ability Scores: Dogfolk gain a +2 racial bonus to Charisma and to one other ability score determined by their breed; they are one and all highly sociable characters who prefer to gather in groups or packs, but have bred themselves into a variety of other strengths. [2 RP]
Dogfolk: While dogfolk have distinct breeds, these are not true races, and all dogfolk are simply humanoids with the dogfolk subtype. [0 RP]
Medium: Dogfolk have no bonuses or penalties due to their size. [0 RP]
Normal Speed: Dogfolk have a base speed of 30 feet. [0 RP]
Low-Light Vision: Dogfolk can see twice as far as a race with normal vision in conditions of dim light. [1 RP]
Scent: Dogfolk have the scent ability. [4 RP]
Eternal Hope: Dogfolk gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against fear and despair effects. Also, once per day, after a natural roll of 1 on a d20 roll, they may reroll and use the second result. [2 RP]
Emissary: Once per day, dogfolk can roll twice when making a Bluff or Diplomacy check and take the better roll. [1 RP]
Standard Languages: Dogfolk begin play speaking Common and Dogfolk or Canish. Dogfolk with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following languages -- Aklo, Catfolk (or Felish), Gnoll, Grippli, Sylvan, Vanaran, and Vishkanya. [Substitute Dwarf, Elvish, Gnome, Halfling, Orc, or other campaign-appropriate languages for unavailable languages.] [0 RP]
~~~ Alternate Racial Traits ~~~
These alternate racial traits are available to dogfolk based on breed or size.
Standard Ability Scores: Some unfortunate dogfolk are mutts without a predominant breed. These dogfolk are still highly sociable, and their mixed breeding gives them a boost to their health. However, they are often more foolish than those with disciplined breeding behind them. Mutts gain a +2 racial bonus to Constitution and Charisma, but take a -2 racial penalty to Wisdom. This racial trait replaces Flexible Ability Scores. [0 RP]
Only mutts may take this racial trait, and indeed must take it. While they gain no breed-specific racial traits, they are free to take the alternate racial traits below. [Mutts have a total of 8 RP.]
Small: Some dogfolk are Small, rather than Medium, in size. They gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty on combat maneuver checks and to their CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks. Their base speed is reduced to 20 feet, but they still have a space of 5 feet by 5 feet and a reach of 5 feet. Small dogfolk are highly energetic, and must pick two typically Strength- or Dexterity-based skills at character creation to always be class skills for them. This racial trait replaces Medium & Normal Speed. [0 RP]
Mutts and some dogfolk breeds (Attackers, Herders, & Retrievers) have the option of choosing this trait as an alternate to Medium size, while some (Entertainers & Trackers) must choose it and others (Chasers & Spotters) may not choose it.
Sprinter: Some medium-sized dogfolk are surprisingly fast when they need to be, although they're less sociable than others. They receive a 10ft bonus to their land speed when using the charge, run, or withdraw actions. This racial trait requires Medium size, and replaces Emissary. [1 RP]
Pack-fighter [Swarming]: Some small-sized dogfolk are vicious toward those outside their pack, and become so used to fighting communally with other members of their pack that up to two small dogfolk with this racial trait can share the same square at the same time. If two such dogfolk that are occupying the same square attack the same foe, they are considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares. This racial trait requires Small size, and replaces Emissary. [1 RP]
These alternate racial traits are available to all dogfolk.
Bite: Some dogfolk can savage their foes with their teeth. They gain a natural bite attack, dealing 1d3 for Small dogfolk & 1d4 for Medium ones. The bite is a primary attack, or a secondary attack if the dogfolk is wielding manufactured weapons. This racial trait replaces Eternal Hope. [2 RP]
Focused Study: Some dogfolk have "cut off their noses" in the words of their scornful fellows, and have blended in with human society, working hard on building typical human skills but over time losing their sensitive scent ability. At 1st, 8th, and 16th level, they gain Skill Focus in a skill of their choice as a bonus feat. This racial trait replaces Scent. [4 RP]
Gift of Tongues: Some dogfolk are even more focused on social interactions than the rest. They gain a +1 racial bonus on Bluff and Diplomacy checks, and they learn one additional language every time they put a rank in the Linguistics skill. This racial trait replaces Eternal Hope. [2 RP]
Scavenger: Some dogfolk are extremely perceptive. They gain a +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks and on Perception checks to find hidden objects (including traps and secret doors), determine whether food is spoiled, or identify a potion by taste. This racial trait replaces Eternal Hope. [2 RP]
Skill Training: Some dogfolk are quieter than their gregarious cousins, focusing on closely watching the world and its social interactions around them. Perception and Sense Motive are always considered class skills for these dogfolk. This racial trait replaces Emissary. [1 RP]
Stubborn: Some dogfolk are stubbornly loyal, and gain a +2 racial bonus on Will saving throws to resist spells and spell-like abilities of the enchantment (charm) and enchantment (compulsion) subschools. In addition, if such a dogfolk fails such a save, it receives another save 1 round later to prematurely end the effect (assuming the spell or spell-like ability has a duration greater than 1 round). This second save is made at the same DC as the first. If the dogfolk with this trait has a similar ability from another source (such as a rogue's slippery mind class feature), it can only use one of these abilities per round, but can try the other on the second round if the first reroll ability fails. This racial trait replaces Eternal Hope. [2 RP]
~~~ Breed-Specific Racial Traits ~~~
These racial traits are available only to dogfolk with a specific breed. They supplement the common & alternate racial traits above, rather than replacing them. There are no alternates for the breed-specific racial traits. [2 RP each, so each breed has a total of 12 RP.]
~ WIP ~
I would elimate the +2 Cha on the grounds that not all dogs are personable. Having lived with humans for so long, they are as diverse as them. I suggest simply doing +2 to an ability score of choice. I like the idea of the type of dog (guard dog, herder, runner, etc), so maybe assigning a secondary trait to each ability score would be appropriate. I would make a couple of them small too (an additonal -2 Str and +2 Dex). Toy breeds are small, but hunting dogs and ratters are too.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Nope. Too powerful.
I would elimate the +2 Cha on the grounds that not all dogs are personable. Having lived with humans for so long, they are as diverse as them. I suggest simply doing +2 to an ability score of choice. I like the idea of the type of dog (guard dog, herder, runner, etc), so maybe assigning a secondary trait to each ability score would be appropriate. I would make a couple of them small too (an additonal -2 Str and +2 Dex). Toy breeds are small, but hunting dogs and ratters are too.
My argument about the Cha bonus is that they don't have to be personable, they can be intimidating, and still be extremely pack-oriented. However, I'll think about going to a... what? An already-specified single +2 bonus (for an ability defined for each specific breed) isn't in the Race Builder. How many RP would you rate that as? The same as Standard (O)?
Or were you suggesting I allow Human Heritage, and permit each dogfolk to pick their +2 bonus?
Did you see my alternate racial trait for Small? Attackers (yes, ratters), herders, & retrievers have the option of being small, while entertainers & trackers must be. (Although if by "hunting dog" you mean spotters, I'm not aware of any RL pointers or setters who are small. I've got chasers & spotters as not eligible for small-size.)
In any case, I had forgotten about the -2 Str & +2 Dex just from the Small size. Or at least, I hadn't thought in those terms because the Race Builder doesn't. Do I need to?
I was suggesting the human style +2, and then one or two secondary traits paired with it.
I did see your small attacker. I didn't know that's what the ratter was, but it's what gave me the idea.
The Str/Dex adjustment for small isn't required. Gnomes don't get a Dex bonus.
In this case, ratters would be formidable. Small characters with a bonus of +2 to Strength, rather than a penalty. Are you going to scream?
{And what about the various racial traits & alternate racial traits I've described?}
I wasn't meaning to criticize. Everything looks pretty good. I was interested in the concept and so felt the need to throw in my 2 cents.
I can't think of a + Str small race. Doesn't sound inherantly wrong though.
Ciaran, thanks! Criticizing is okay, I shouldn't have used the word "scream." I was afraid you'd come back and say that It Shouldn't Be Done. Not because you were being mean, but because... rules.
I can restructure the ability scores to be in essence, Human Heritage, except that as a player picks an ability bonus & size, they're also picking a breed w/ other traits, as well.
I give up my +2 to Cha, but... I can now run out to spend the 2 RP you just saved me! I should quickly mention that I have an uncomfortable sense that I'm going to need 3 RP for the breed traits, so I was considering dropping Low-Light Vision. (Except for giving it back to the Chasers as a breed trait. Other dogs don't focus on vision enough to justify giving dogfolk a vision-based trait, is the argument.)
Comments?
Well, I think you're going to be dismayed by my vote. I agree with getting rid of Low-light for the base traits. However, Skill Training in Perception and Sense Motive seems very canine, and worthy.
So I would substitute Skill Training for Low-Light, and just have the base traits be one less than is allowed -- there is nothing that says that the upper limit must be the lower limit also....
I can restructure the ability scores to be in essence, Human Heritage, except that as a player picks an ability bonus & size, they're also picking a breed w/ other traits, as well.
Its was just an idea. It's up to you if you do it that way or not.
So now I could keep Low-Light for all dogfolk, promote Skill Training in Perception & Sense Motive (1 RP) to be a base common trait, and bank 1 RP to spend on breed traits, giving me the 3 RP I need there.
Sounds reasonable.
I can restructure the ability scores to be in essence, Human Heritage, except that as a player picks an ability bonus & size, they're also picking a breed w/ other traits, as well.Its was just an idea. It's up to you if you do it that way or not.
Sounds reasonable.
So now I could keep Low-Light for all dogfolk, promote Skill Training in Perception & Sense Motive (1 RP) to be a base common trait, and bank 1 RP to spend on breed traits, giving me the 3 RP I need there.
I had been looking at it as here's the breeds, and the ability score each is required to have a bonus in. No choice. But the point is, it's not really a requirement if the player can just pick any breed they want. So I can invert it with just a little mental work-out.
Getting called on to do a mental work-out is why I posted, after all. :)
And as for losing the +2 Cha, yes, I'm sad, but there's value in exchange. I'm hoping others will help out -- but so far it looks like bumping up Skill Training wins. If I keep Low-Light, I can have Bite and Stubborn replace it + "Keen Senses" (Skill Training in Perception & Sense Motive). I can say that dogfolk who have retained a strong bite or who can shrug off enchantments simply aren't as perception-oriented. Which fixes one of the issues with the write-up I had.
Debnor, having a trait replace Emissary + Keen Senses makes less sense to me; I don't see as much of a connection between those two traits. So yes, I want to keep a somewhat dubious trait just for the math in trading it out!
{EtA: Next question -- are there mutts? What bonuses & penalties? Still +2 Con, +2 Cha, -2 Wis?}
And now I'm back to refining my list of breeds before I pick breed-specific traits.
The dogfolk breeds are based on functions of various dog breeds, and each offers breed-specific racial traits in addition to the common ones above. However, to belong to a specific breed and gain its traits, a dogfolk character must have their +2 racial bonus in the ability score associated with that breed and must be of a permissible size.
Traits (WIP) will be 3 RP each, so each breed has a total of 12 RP.
I'd love comments, especially on the possibility of DEX/Small breeds -- I'm looking for smaller breeds that used agility to work for a living, with a different function from those already listed. And I'm not sure about reinstating Guarder as a CHA/Medium breed; is this too much of a stretch?
I'm renaming "Human Heritage" for the ability scores to "Multiple-Breed," but it still will mean that you can pick one ability score for a +2 bonus.
And I'm reconsidering penalizing Mutts, now that the breed ability score rules have changed (to 0 RP). That is, it's now fairly easy to differentiate Mutt ability scores from those of a true breed, while still giving them the 3 RP in "breed-specific" racial traits all other dogfolk get. This is what I have now...
Mutt Prerequisite: none. Some unfortunate dogfolk are mutts -— the offspring of more than one breed, as shameful as dogfolk consider such a thing. Their mixed breeding gives them a boost to their health, however, and they quickly learn to manipulate those around them into giving them at least for a time the home and pack that they crave. Mutt dogfolk gain a +2 racial bonus to Constitution and Charisma, along with a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against disease, ingested poisons, and becoming nauseated or sickened. (Mutts often choose Small or Stubborn as alternate racial traits.) This racial trait replaces Multiple-Breed Ability Scores. [Flexible Ability Scores & Plagueborn: 3 RP.]
I suppose that way is basically what I had in mind, even if I didn't explain it that way.
I suggest possibly making the small Dex ?? dog and the small attack (ratter) dog one in the same. Even if it doesn't have a Str bonus, not having a Str penalty is important for such a character.
You could make the +2 breed either the mutt or a work dog. Either makes sense to me.
For simplicity, I would also recommend consolidating or trimming the list down to 6 breeds: one per ability score.
You could also get those 6 breeds into 12 virtual breeds but allowing any of them to choose between small and medium.
I'm okay with nine breeds; some of the size splits result in truly distinct sets of traits. But I can follow you on the lack of a Str penalty being good enough for a ratter. (And not filling in the gap for a Small dogfolk with a Str bonus.) So now I'm looking at (in part):
And the text for Small changes (at the beginning & end)...
Small: Some entire dogfolk breeds are Small in size, as are some mutts. These dogfolk gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty on combat maneuver checks and to their CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks. Their base speed is reduced to 20 feet, but they still have a space of 5 feet by 5 feet and a reach of 5 feet. Small dogfolk are highly energetic, and must pick two typically Strength- or Dexterity-based skills at character creation to always be class skills for them. This racial trait replaces Medium & Normal Speed, but may not be selected for dogfolk with a bonus in Strength. [0 RP]
~~~
Again, since I'm determined to have more than 6 breeds, how well does the Guarder hold up as CHA/medium? Is this what you're addressing here?
You could make the +2 breed either the mutt or a work dog. Either makes sense to me.
Because I don't think that Cha/Medium fits the Mutts well, and "work dog" is my herder.
I meant con bonus for mutts, not cha. They're survivors.
Have a question. If Dogfolk has Sprinter, what can first responder get in order to show its "speed"/responsiveness?
I left off Scent because it is an advance trait, also it is 4 RP. This is what I have so far. I'm working on Lap Dog (Small sized Dogfolk) and Hunter (trying to make it different than normal Dogfolk).
- Ability Score Racial Traits: Dogfolk are strong and confident, and personable. They gain +2 Strength and +2 Charisma. [2 RP]
- Type: Dogfolk are Humanoid creatures with dogfolk subtypes. [0 RP]
- Size: Dogfolk are Medium creatures and thus have no bonuses or penalties due to their size. [0 RP]
- Base Speed: Dogfolk have a base speed of 30 feet. [0 RP]
- Languages: Dogfolk begin play speaking Common and Dogfolk/Barkken. Dogfolk with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following languages: Dwarven, Elven, Halfling, Sylvan, and Terran. See the Linguistics skill page for more information about these languages. [0 RP]
- Eternal Hope: Dogfolk gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against fear and despair effects. Also, once per day, after a natural roll of 1 on a d20 roll, members of this race may reroll and use the second result.[2 RP]
- Skill Training: Perception and Survival are always class skills for Dogfolk. [1 RP]
- Emissary: Once per day, members of this race can roll twice when making a Bluff or Dipolomacy check and take the better. [1 RP]
- Sprinter: Dogfolk gain a +10 foot racial bonus to their speed when using the charge, run, or withdraw actions. [1 RP]
- Bite: Dogfolk gain a natural bite attack, dealing 1d4 damage. The bite is a primary attack, or a secondary attack if the creature is wielding manufactured weapons.[2 RP]
- Carrion Sense: Dogfolk have a natural ability to sniff out carrion. This functions like the scent ability, but only for corpses and badly wounded creatures (creatures with below 25% hit points)[1 RP]
- Low-Light Vision: Dogfolk have low-light vision allowing them to see twice as far as humans in dim light. [1 RP]
- Desert Runner: First Responders receive a +4 racial bonus on Constitution checks and Fortitude saves to avoid fatigue and exhaustion, as well as any other ill effects from running, forced marches, starvation, thirst, and hot or cold environments. [2 RP]
- Lucky: First Responders gain a +1 racial bonus on all saving throws.[2 RP]
- Ability Score: Show Dogs are far more nimble and agile than their cousins. They gain +2 Dexterity. [0 RP]
- Gift of Tongues: Show Dogs gain a +1 racial bonus on Bluff and Diplomacy checks, and they learn one additional language every time they put a rank in the Linguistics skill. [1 RP]
- Skill Training: Acrobatics and Diplomacy are always class skills for Show Dogs. [1 RP]
- Static Bonus Feat: Show dogs gain Skill Focus as a bonus feat at first level. [2 RP]
- Cornered Fury: Whenever a wolf-kin is reduced to half its hit points or fewer and has no conscious ally within 30 feet, it gains a +2 racial bonus on melee attack rolls and to Armor Class. [4 RP]
- Natural Armor: Wolf-Kin gain a +1 natural armor bonus to their Armor Class. [2 RP]
I deleted the comment I just made, pending reading the one you just made! LOL!
I think of mainly Dalmatians and German Shepard for First Responders. K9 Units and Fire house dogs equally. Dogs that have "evolved" to take over those roles from humans, if that makes any sense.
I realize the change with Sprinter, but I may just replace that with small-sized dog folk getting base 30ft movement.
Hi there! :) I'm looking on Dogtime.com right now, although it's also worth checking AKC, certainly.
[...] It was in England that the Dalmatian was developed as the definitive coaching dog. He was used to clear a path before the horses, run alongside the coach or under the coach between the axels. He guarded the horses and coach when they were at rest. To this day the Dalmatian has a natural affinity for horses.
This affinity took the Dalmatian on a different career path in the United States. Here he became a firehouse dog, running with the horses to the fire, watching over the equipment during a fire, and sometimes even rescuing people from burning buildings. When the excitement was over, they accompanied the fire wagons back to the station and resumed their duty as watchdog.
OK, so running is big, big for them.
Now for German Shepherds.
The German Shepherd is a relatively new breed, dating back to 1899, and he owes his existence to one man: Captain Max von Stephanitz, a career captain in the German cavalry with a goal of creating a German breed that would be unmatched as a herding dog.[...]
Although he had intended for his breed to work as herding dogs, as Germany became more and more industrialized, von Stephanitz saw the need for such dogs fading. He was determined that his breed would continue as a working dog, and he decided that the dog's future was in police work and military service.
Making good use of his military connections, von Stephanitz convinced the German government to use the breed. During World War I the German Shepherd served as a Red Cross dog, messenger, rescuer, guard, supply carrier, and sentry.
Do you see the lack of connection? I don't know that a German Shepherd is especially built for running, despite being "athletic." It seems to be have been bred for guarding & intelligence (defined as trainability). Of course, guarding is different from attacking.
Still, giving the First Responders Sprinter probably does make sense. I'd love to give them a bonus to Init, as well, but the only legal way to do it requires a +2 bonus to Dex -- and then they're not getting the bonus on charges, which is probably part of what caught your eye. Compare this...
Fleet-Footed (3 RP): Prerequisite: The race has at least a +2 racial bonus to Dexterity; Benefit: Members of this race receive Run as a bonus feat and a +2 racial bonus on initiative checks.
And now we look at the second problem (as I observed and then deleted).
If you keep Sprinter as a main trait, small-sized dogs with a 20-ft base speed don't qualify. You'd have to keep the 30-ft speed, and now you're adding another 10 for charges & runs. Think about it. Are small dogs really faster than a fit human being? (In other words, my bichons might well be faster than me, but that's not saying much. I really doubt they could outrun a typical high school athlete.) {EtA: Did you spend the -1 RP for the 20-ft speed?}Finally, I think there's better traits to give your Wolf-kin than Sprinter. They may be fast... but... any playable race is cutting some feature or another. And frankly, I'm distressed that you're throwing around changes in costs for ability scores the way you are. Or at least, it looks like you switched from Standard ability scores [+0 RP] to... something that's not on the list. Maybe. What did you do, actually?
{EtA much later:} Oh, I see, you took out the small size for your show dogs! What a pity...
SorrySleeping, you mentioned in a PM that Scent is an Advanced trait! Yes, it is! Oooops!
Ciaran and anyone else, do you consider it usable for an 11- or 12-RP "Standard" race?
I meant removing sprinter from small breeds and giving them just 30ft base movement, since I think that is only 1 RP to do so. I thought that small creatures with 20ft speed was 0 RP, not -1 RP.
Wolf-kin was sort of just thrown together, since I want to sorta give him +Str/Con but that seems really powerful and I still want to try to keep cornered fury, but for a "might not really happen ever" sorta trait, it seems hugely expensive at 4 RP. Wolf-kin might just be changed overall.
I have to change the ability score for Wolfkin. I didn't realize that there wasn't just a +2 non-floating stat bonus. I was using Human Hertiage, but with it fixed in Str. I might trade them over to +2 Str/Con, -2 Cha [1 RP, Specialized] but that seems like a powerful score combination considering how many classes can easily and safely dump Cha.
I also don't want to give Wolfkin a +4 str, meaning they need to keep Flexible [2 RP, +2 to any two stats], Specialized [1 RP, noted above], Standard, or Weakness [+2 to one mental, one physical, -4 to one]. I don't feel like -4 Cha is enough to offset +2 Str/Con and I don't seeing Wolfkin getting +2 Wisdom or Int.
As for your ideas, I like the idea of the flexible bonuses to stats and traits, but it seems like a large step away from Paizo races.
I also don't like the entire change to ability scores, and prefer dogfolk to be less like Aasimar and Teifling in that reguard. I say that as I have currently four different dogfolk if you include base dogfolk, and three didn't ability score modifiers.
And I'm still hoping that SorrySleeping or Indagare, or indeed anyone else, will leap in on suggestions for me. So here's the current consolidated version... And I'm sorry I've been shy about getting a google account. Is there a protected site as an alternative for a long doc? As it is, I have to split this into two posts!
All dogfolk get these traits.
Multiple-Breed Ability Scores: Learning from their long association with humans, dogfolk have disciplined themselves into forming greatly-varying breeds. A dogfolk character gains a +2 bonus to any single ability score of your choice during character creation. In conjunction with size, the ability bonus chosen then determines the character’s breed. [Human Heritage Ability Scores: 0 RP]
Dogfolk: While dogfolk have distinct breeds with astonishing physical differences, these are not true races, and all dogfolk are simply humanoids with the dogfolk subtype. [0 RP]
Medium: Dogfolk have no bonuses or penalties due to their size. [0 RP]
Normal Speed: Dogfolk have a base speed of 30 feet. [0 RP]
Low-Light Vision: Dogfolk can see twice as far as a race with normal vision in conditions of dim light. [1 RP]
Scent: Dogfolk have the scent ability. [4 RP]
Eternal Hope: Dogfolk gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against fear and despair effects. Also, once per day, after a natural roll of 1 on a d20 roll, they may reroll and use the second result. [2 RP]
Emissary: Once per day, dogfolk can roll twice when making a Bluff or Diplomacy check and take the better roll. [1 RP]
Keen Senses: Perception and Sense Motive are always considered class skills for dogfolk. [Skill Training: 1 RP]
Standard Languages: Dogfolk begin play speaking Common and Dogfolk or Canish. Dogfolk with high Intelligence scores can choose from a list of seven campaign-suitable languages. [0 RP]
These alternate racial traits are available to dogfolk based on size.
Small: Some entire dogfolk breeds are Small in size, as are some mutts. These dogfolk gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty on combat maneuver checks and to their CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks. Their base speed is reduced to 20 feet, but they still have a space of 5 feet by 5 feet and a reach of 5 feet. Small dogfolk are highly energetic, and must pick two typically Strength- or Dexterity-based skills at character creation to always be class skills for them. This racial trait replaces Medium & Normal Speed, but may not be selected for dogfolk with a bonus in Strength. [0 RP]
Sprinter: Some medium-sized dogfolk are surprisingly fast when they need to be, although they're less sociable than others. They receive a 10-ft bonus to their land speed when using the charge, run, or withdraw actions. This racial trait requires Medium size, and replaces Emissary. [1 RP]
Pack-fighter: Some small-sized dogfolk are vicious toward those outside their pack, and become so used to fighting communally with other members of their pack that up to two small dogfolk with this racial trait can share the same square at the same time. If two such dogfolk that are occupying the same square attack the same foe, they are considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares. This racial trait requires Small size, and replaces Emissary. [Swarming: 1 RP]
These alternate racial traits are available to all dogfolk.
Bite: Some dogfolk can savage their foes with their teeth, although they are less perceptive than their fellows. They gain a natural bite attack, dealing 1d3 for Small dogfolk & 1d4 for Medium ones. The bite is a primary attack, or a secondary attack if the dogfolk is wielding manufactured weapons. This racial trait replaces Low-Light Vision & Keen Senses. [2 RP]
Focused Study: Some dogfolk have "cut off their noses" in the words of their scornful fellows, and have blended in with human society, working hard on building typical human skills but over time losing their sensitive scent ability. At 1st, 8th, and 16th level, they gain Skill Focus in a skill of their choice as a bonus feat. This racial trait replaces Scent. [4 RP]
Gift of Tongues: Some dogfolk are even more focused on social interactions than the rest. They gain a +1 racial bonus on Bluff and Diplomacy checks, and they learn one additional language every time they put a rank in the Linguistics skill. This racial trait replaces Eternal Hope. [2 RP]
Scavenger: Some dogfolk are even more perceptive than the rest. They gain a +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks and on Perception checks to find hidden objects (including traps and secret doors), determine whether food is spoiled, or identify a potion by taste. This racial trait replaces Eternal Hope. [2 RP]
Stubborn: Some dogfolk are stubbornly loyal, and gain a +2 racial bonus on Will saving throws to resist spells and spell-like abilities of the enchantment (charm) and enchantment (compulsion) subschools. In addition, if such a dogfolk fails such a save, it receives another save 1 round later to prematurely end the effect (assuming the spell or spell-like ability has a duration greater than 1 round). This second save is made at the same DC as the first. If it has a similar ability from another source (such as a rogue's slippery mind class feature), it can only use one of these abilities per round, but can try the other on the second round if the first reroll ability fails. This racial trait replaces Low-Light Vision & Keen Senses. [2 RP]