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Greetings. I've been ruminating this build idea in my head for a long while, as I like the potential combination of these classes... Though, I've been hesitant to build it, as I've got a good number of other characters to play in Society play, and the general consensus is- the archetypes are underwhelming.
I've decided, screw conventional thought. Let's try to make an unconventional yet flavorful build, and make it somewhat playable.
[I'll hold off on building my Void-element Sylph Psychokineticist, when better Talents become available for the Void element.]
That said-
Nagaji Sandman (Bard X)/Umbral Summoner (Mesmerist 1-2?) will see the light of day!
I like both archetypes; the Sandman's Spellsteal ability would come in handy against enemy casters, and the sneak attack- while very lacking compared to other classes, can be the extra damage needed to end a fight.
Nobody expects the "rogue" to cast spells. :p Yes, losing Inspire Courage is a downside, especially when the party hears i'm playing a bard.
Since spell steal's DC is dependent on my Bard lvl, it's going to be the primary class.
The Umbral Summoner is apparently universally panned because "there are better summoning classes out there" which is moot to this build. This dip into the class purely for the Stare and Trick, and the shadow puppies [or whatever i summon] are purely fodder. The "diminished spell casting" is a boon as i don't want to handle two different spell tables.
A one-level dip gets me all that i need, a second level dip gives me another Trick and Umbral Solipshism [charisma penalty to disbelieving my shadow puppies].
That said, shadow puppies to distract foes and provide flanking for allies while i try to steal spells when the opportunity calls for it.
TL:DR- TOUGH.
Nagaji Bard/Mesmerist
16/14/12/9/12/16
Mesmerist 1> Ready for Battle
Mesmerist 2?> -
M2/Bard 1> Extra Performance?
M2/B2> -
M2/B3> Bleeding Stare?
M2/B4> -
M2/B5> Accomplished Sneak Attacker
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so, no one has any observations about this build?
I think at lvl 1, "Ready for Battle" will be a good boon for the party- as the four people I've implanted Tricks onto get the Initiative boost. And my primary Trick will be Psychosomatic Surge to keep people "alive" after they fall.
I don't know if i need Extra Performance that early, as I'm still uncertain how Spellsteal works as performance.
I'm even uncertain if i want to even get a second level of Mesmerist.
Bleeding Stare and ASA are good for extra damage,
I think for the most part people would avoid the mesmerist/bard combo since both only really shine solo. That and purposely picking poor archetypes seems like self sabotage. That said the mesmerist is a very nice class...two levels really seems useless (giving everyone +2 init is nice but hardly sidetracking) as for Sandman...honestly it seems pretty specialized with little real reward (ie you must be facing a spell caster) Granted I need to read up on the umbral summoner always looking for a pfs legit summoner :) Sorry if I ramble going to bed
Why not just go with a fey trickster mesmerist with the Fey Spell Lore and/or Fey Spell Versatility feats (to pick up some "bard-like" spells)? Put some ranks in Perform if you want to act as a "bard."
You can only have 1 trick implanted at one time until you get manifold tricks. As such, I don't think ready for battle is that great a feat.
yeah this. You can only have 1 trick implanted. SO only one person gets the ready for battle boost.
also, bleeding stare requires Mesmerist 5, so you don't qualify for it.
I really don't see how the mesmerist is really helping you here.
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Why not just go with a fey trickster mesmerist with the Fey Spell Lore and/or Fey Spell Versatility feats (to pick up some "bard-like" spells)? Put some ranks in Perform if you want to act as a "bard."
that [Fey Trickster] doesn't do much for what i have planned.
I want to use SpellSteal, that's the reason for the Mesmerist dip- the lowered will save. since most caster types have a better will save. And people aren't realizing there are more spellcasting classes out there, than just the standard Wizard/Sorcerer.unless there is an alternate way to steal spells from casters, that would make for a better build- then let's have at.
I said this is an unconventional build. I like making those. Let's Make This Work.
Thanks for the heads up on Ready for Battle, i thought Tricks could be implanted on multiple targets, and you just couldn't stack Tricks on the same ally.
The more "wrong" advice you get, the more it means you were unclear on what your goals are.
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The more "wrong" advice you get, the more it means you were unclear on what your goals are.
When people don't embrace absurdity and strive only to min/max the "best" classes and archetypes, then it's no fun in a game with limitless potential.
"I have a Magus with Maximized Shocking Grasp!""As do I!" says entire table.
=/
I don't like making Cut'n'Paste characters.
I know what my goals are- I want to make this build playable and functional, without making it a detriment to the party.
I can still be reliable in combat, i'd have spell casting abilities to support/aid my allies, I'd make use of my Spell-Steal when the opportunity arrives.
What I'm saying is. It is very unclear in your OP what type of responses you're hoping to get and what the point of the mesmerist level(s) is/ why you were going bard.
One guy assumed bard was primary for the spells, so his advice was how to get the spells without dipping.
I'm still not sure what type of responses you're hoping to be getting, thus am unable to provide any "useful" advice for you.
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Fair enough. i do make a habit of being ambiguous with my requests...
If there are any other ways to Steal spells outside of that bard archetype, let me know- i'd reconsider this build in it's stead, as i do recognize the Sandman is hurt with the loss of Inspire Courage and slow Sneak Attack progression.
I know that both classes are 3/4 BAB, so starting with the Mesmerist and going into Bard hinders my "to-hit" chance with no progression. When would be a good time to consider dipping into Mesmerist, if start with Bard?
With Bleeding Stare and Ready for Battle unavailable, what feats should I consider with this oddball build?
Alternatively, what about a Spellbreaker [Inquisitor] 3/ Sandman [Bard] X build look compared to this Mesmerist combination?
Getting close to a spellcaster, steal their spell, make it harder for them to cast their remaining spells.
I would greatly appreciate advice on making the most of the Sandman archetype, despite it's flaws.
Great post! This we can try to help with. Give me some time to look, but I plan on responding and helping with this. :D
Otherwise the spell stolen is random, but it is always of the highest level that the bard can cast, if possible.
This line makes it so you want max bard levels, but unfortunately also makes this ability not scale well.
At lv7 when a bard gets lv3 spells the wizard just got lv4 spells. So you'd be able to steal 1 of his 3 level 3 spells, but none of his lv4 spells.
If you take 1 level then wizards have more lv4 and lv3 spells, and sorcerers gained lv4 spells.
So this wont take out the big guns of a 9th caster, or really even make much of a dent in their spells for the fight.
Now against an enemy 6th caster at lv7 they have 2 level 3 spells, so taking 1 of them can be decent, but if you wait till 8 they now have 3 spells, so less impact-full.
Also, this doesn't really stop them from being a threat, nor helps to drop them sooner.
And this can only start happening round 2, after they've likely got off 1 or 2 of their best spells.
now That's my thoughts on the build. Are you still interested in building it?
Your Sneakspell requires them to be denied-dex, and that works for your sneak attack too, so going feinting might be a good option for you.
Because of the above I'd not dip more than necessary, otherwise your less useful stealspell ability will be even more lack-luster.
take mesmerist 1 and the feat intimidating glance. This can let you intimidate as a swift, lowering their saves by 4 by the time you get to targeting enemies.
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I would also like to help here. I going to write down a few thoughts about things we have to overcome. I'm not slaging on the build but outlining some challanges.
Otherwise the spell stolen is random, but it is always of the highest level that the bard can cast, if possible.
This is the biggest hurdle as a 6th level caster you will not be able to steal the most dangerous spells from 9th level casters. If you multi-class your dc will be higher but you will be even further behind in what you can steal.
We should try and find a way to use this Sneakspell (Ex) to increase your DCs.
There is a Spell Stealing weapon enchancment but it is a +3 special ability.
EDIT:
LESSON FOR ALL THE KIDS: refresh before you post or you get ninja'd by chess.
Now, if you want to build the sandman bard cause it's able to have the cool bard list, sneak attack, and disabling traps all in one class then this is still a decent fit and viable character, Would make for a good reason to find a good masterpiece (battle song of people's revolt?) and use that as your primary buffing song since you don't have inspire courage to use. But that didn't seem to be the direction you were wanting to go.
If Pathfinder Unchained Scaling Items is available, look at the Mark of the Grinning Skull. The first ability increases the penalty you give intimidated creatures by two in regards to yourself - combine with Intimidating Glance as Chess Pwn mentioned, and you can net a -6 to will saves. 2000 gp for the lowest level version. Note this does require two swift actions - once to establish the stare, and once to intimidate.
Blood of Shadows also has the mesmerizing tattoo, but that's a bit pricey. 10,800, and among other things increases the hypnotic stare penalty to Will saving throws by 1.
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Now, if you want to build the sandman bard cause it's able to have the cool bard list, sneak attack, and disabling traps all in one class then this is still a decent fit and viable character, Would make for a good reason to find a good masterpiece (battle song of people's revolt?) and use that as your primary buffing song since you don't have inspire courage to use. But that didn't seem to be the direction you were wanting to go.
I definitely do not see this character as an overly aggressive, as it's only a 3/4 BAB. I have no problem falling into a support roll, and whatever skills i have at my disposable to aid as much as possible.
If i keep with Sandman, would it be smarter to take a Masterpiece in place of a spell slot, rather than a feat?
There was another reason i was looking at the Umbral Summoner- at 5th Lvl, the target of my stare considers me Invisible until i take a hostile action against him. But going that far into Mesmerist is just too, and weakens the Sandman build.
Second level dip into Umbral Summoner would have given me a second Trick, but i'm not desperate for it. I'll probably just stick with Psychosomatic Surge, and Deja Vu as my primary "Mesmerist" abilities.
Good thing that Vanish is on both spell lists, and i still have Fascinate performance.
3/4 bab, 18 str, THW, heroism, power attack and sneak attack. It's what a rogue wishes he could be. Not that you'd need to build this way to be effective, but all 3/4 bab have what it takes to go into melee and perform well enough. And is personally my preferred way of helping do combat. This build would not really be taking great advantage of the steal spells ability so probably not what you'd want.
as for spell known or feat, it depends. Spells known are quite limited, but if you only care for 1 or 2 spells of a certain level then you're good to trade spells known (like do you need a lv2 spell that isn't heroism). If you don't know what feats to take then feats aren't that vital for you so trading them isn't that bad.
vanish as a mesmerist would only last until the beginning of your next turn, which to me doesn't seem like it's at all helpful. Spend your turn to be invisible during their next turn.
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I'm going to ask in the Rules forum about how Spellsteal works as a performance...
I've been trying to find if Nagaji have a weapon proficency, because i'm ruminating this character using a Trident, if able.
Right now, i'm pondering traits-
I'm liking Cross-Disciplined, Less Effort, or Tenacious Shifting
spellsteal. You start it up as a normal performance, while it's active you can make a standard action touch attack to try and steal a spell. If you succeed you can cast that spell. Once you stop performing any stolen spells return to their original owner.
Nagaji don't get any racial weapon proficiency.
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With Diminished Spellcasting from Umbral Summoner, my Mesmerist Spell list is moot. It'll probably be my "contingent" spell pool- like Faerie Fire and Deja Vu, as the Save DC for my mesmerist spells will be pretty low.
I just realized, that as a Nagaji, my intelligence is going to take a hit, and getting it high enough to qualify for several feats that may benefit this build without tweaking my stats, is impossible. Improved Feint requires the world's worst feat-tree unlock.
I could go 14/13/13/13/10/16, because i was considering Skin & Scale feat.
I don't know if Dirty Fighting allows me to qualify for Improved Feint, at later levels.
I was also considering grabbing the Mesmerist lvl later, like at 4/5 because at lower levels, Will Saves vs Spellsteal shouldn't be too hard, and it allows me to grab Extra Performance at first. Though, taking Mesmerist at higher levels makes my Umbral Summoning just purely distraction.
Alternatively, I can take the Enigma archetype, and just use the "Invisibilty Stare" rather than summoning shadow monsters.
Option 1>
Bard 1/M0> Extra Performance
Bard 2/M0> -
Bard 3/M0> Dirty Fighting
Bard 4/M0> -
B4/Mesmerist 1> Improved Feint
Bard 5/M1> -
Bard 6/M1> Accomplished Sneak attacker
Option 2>
B0/Mesmerist 1> Dirty Fighting
Bard 1/M1> -
Bard 2/M1> Extra Performance
Bard 3/M1> -
Bard 4/M1> Improved Feint
Bard 5/M1> -
Bard 6/M1> Accomplished Sneak attacker
Dirty fighting does not work for feinting. Feinting is not a combat maneuver.
A level of brawler bypasses the int 13 requirement, a level of Swashbuckler or a swashbuckler mimic (Daring Champion cavalier and the maybe soon to be legal Virtuous Bravo) lets you use your CHA as a replacement for int.
And Scale and Skin isn't a PFS legal feat.
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Do i really want to multiclass more?
Snakebite Striker (Brawler) gives me Sneak Attack;
Guiding Blade (Swashbuckler) gives me pseudo-Tactician...
It's true at highest level i'd only get half-level+cha-mod to Spellsteal DC, so a couple of dips wouldn't hinder too much.
What would you recommend... This build is far from being brought to realization.
Well an option would be to drop the mesmerist for the other dip.
But okay, here's where I would start. At lv5, what are you hoping your plan for 5 rounds of combat are?
At lv9 what is the plan for the first 5 rounds?
It seems like your plan is,
R1 move towards enemy caster and start spellsteal song.
R2 finish moving to caster and use spellsteal and hope it works.
R3 ... Steal more, try to sneak attack or cast stolen ? I'm not sure what your plan is other than steal a spell.
What is your plan if there isn't an enemy caster?
Also, you seem to be doing risky business, your plan is to reach the backline when you have a d8+1 for HP and light armor +1 for AC.
This exercise is to help you visualize what your character is doing to make sure that you have a plan and to help make sure you can pull off that plan.
EDIT:
Oh also, how often do you want your spellsteal to work?
work almost always against clerics to occasionally works against wis dumped bards.
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Well an option would be to drop the mesmerist for the other dip.
But okay, here's where I would start. At lv5, what are you hoping your plan for 5 rounds of combat are?
At lv9 what is the plan for the first 5 rounds?
It seems like your plan is,
R1 move towards enemy caster and start spellsteal song.
R2 finish moving to caster and use spellsteal and hope it works.
R3 ... Steal more, try to sneak attack or cast stolen ? I'm not sure what your plan is other than steal a spell.What is your plan if there isn't an enemy caster?
Also, you seem to be doing risky business, your plan is to reach the backline when you have a d8+1 for HP and light armor +1 for AC.
This exercise is to help you visualize what your character is doing to make sure that you have a plan and to help make sure you can pull off that plan.
EDIT:
Oh also, how often do you want your spellsteal to work?
work almost always against clerics to occasionally works against wis dumped bards.
All very good points. I know attempting to be a one-trick pony with a uncertain trick is a bad strategy, tis why i'm seeking advice to make this build viable without being dependant on Spellsteal.
I have no problem playing build as a faux-rogue.
ideally, stealing a spell is only to avoid it being used against the party.
Since i don't have Inspire Courage, i think i'd be more dependent Fascinate in the midst of combat; at later levels, I can put them to sleep as per Deep Slumber.
There is a trait/feat that helps me identify casters0 i can't find it currently; but it may be pertinent.
i was looking at those traits to help prolong effects like Bull's Strenghth/Englarge Person to help in combat and the like.
With Snakebite Striker, i can pass myself off as a rogue with Sneak Attack, and leave my team and opponents wondering why i'm not going much damage with Sneak Attack.