| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The answer is always Alchemist.
Trick answer, Alchemist is just a fighter with a lot of lab credits
What counts as a martial class?
there are plenty of characters that can do skills outside of combat. The issue is being better than a caster at them. So question is, what counts as being useful outside of combat?
The only way to do multiple things in combat is martial flexibility to get temp feats on demand. Otherwise no. It take too much specialization to be good at something, and then once you're good at something there's no good reason to not do that thing.
But if you'd like, give some examples of different things to do in combat and we can see what fits.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Vigilante. A talent every level, for starters. Being able to emulate dozens of other classes, as well as being straight-up better than a Core Rogue or Fighter, with all the attributes of the former with more feat options than the latter. Optional full-BAB or pseudo-sneak, with the option of replacing this with four different kinds of 6-Level Spellcasting each with its own special abilities. You can become Spiderman or Hawkman, or even Black Panther. You can be Beast Boy or Robin Hood or Zorro. You can even just be a particularly secretive Inquisitor. You can get a Ki Pool with UnMonk Ki Powers or become a more martial Occultist with Focus Powers.
It is a class that can be anything, with one single, though thematically powerful, restriction.
You should be prepared to roleplay a secret identity to do this class justice. Sure, there's no mechanical stuff stopping you, and the abilities you lose from ignoring it aren't that bad unless you really want to be intrigue-y, but it's super bad form to just ignore a class' primary feature, in my opinion.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In my opinion the two most versatile Martial Classes are Brawler, and Lore Warden/Martial Master Fighter multi-archetype. The versatility in combat you get with the Brawler is kind of unparalleled, as long as you build your core feats properly, you can extend outwards into many different builds on the fly, without sacrificing raw power. Access to Combat Maneuvers when you need them, picking up Dedicated Adversary (PC: DTT) to bump up effectiveness against specific creatures, and let's not forget that Ghostslayer (PC: HHH) even lets you target Incorporeal Creatures!
But if you want more feats in your life, as well as a bit of knowledge, Lore Warden/Martial Master Fighter gives the eventual versatility of Martial Flexibility at level 5, but also a bevvy of new class skills to work with, the ability to focus down specific creatures with Know Thy Enemy, and the ability to negate critical hits at 11th.
The versatility in combat you get with the Brawler is kind of unparalleled, as long as you build your core feats properly
Not to derail the main conversation too much (but i will anyway) what would you consider building the core feats for maximum versatility? Ive only played brawler once so i doubt i got it right.
I see Martial classes as classes that dosent focus on spells. So even if they have spells (Like the paladin) They shouldent focus on casting spells. As for being useful outside of combat.. Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff, Scouting, Finding things, Maybe hunting for or preparing food. Things to do in combat.. Umm.. I'm rather new so I'm not sure.. Be able to do more then go "I hit it with my sword" I guess.. xD
Alchemist I'm unsure about.. Vigilante.. It seems intresting, But keeping a secret identity from the party seems troublesome.. xD And Brawler, Also intresting, Like Monk I find the idea of someone fighting with hands and feet rather then a weapon quite intresting ^_^ But.. I dont know how Brawler's Flurry works.. Is it the same as the Monks Flurry of Blows?
Brawler's Flurry gives you the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for free, as long as you two-weapon fight with monk weapons and/or close weapons. Well, you don't actually need to fight with two weapons, you just get the extra attacks. It upgrades to the Improved and Greater two-weapon fighting at higher levels.
|
|
Vigilante.. It seems intresting, But keeping a secret identity from the party seems troublesome..
You don't have to keep it from your party, just make sure that they don't reveal it to anyone else. Having a secret identity, especially as a noble or skilled craftsman or whatever, would be an incredible boon to any party's social-fu.
Depends on what you define "martial" as.
As long as martial doesn't mean full BAB, I think any of your 6th level progression spell casters usually fit the bill.
My personal favorite is Inquisitor, especially archer Inquisitors with the chivalry domain. You got skill points, you got spells, you got class features to keep your damage on top. The Inquisitor is actually one of the best archers in the game thanks to Greater Bane and Judgment. And tacking on other spells like Divine Power. A fully buffed archer Inquisitor is truly terrifying, and can use spells and skills outside of combat to be extremely versatile. Especially when combined with scrolls (of spells on her spell list) and Mnemonic Vestment which allow you to cast the spell using your spell slot without taking up a spell known slot.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The versatility in combat you get with the Brawler is kind of unparalleled, as long as you build your core feats properlyNot to derail the main conversation too much (but i will anyway) what would you consider building the core feats for maximum versatility? Ive only played brawler once so i doubt i got it right.
My personal go-to's are the following
Power Attack
Combat Expertise/Dirty Fighting
Dodge and Mobility
Weapon Focus
Combat Reflexes
6 feats spent, and you don't have to go in on them all the way. Those feats branch off into 90% of the martial feat trees in the entire game. For maximum combat versatility I like high Str and Dex builds, and don't forget that Brawlers can use a shield to bump up their AC, unlike Monks. Mithral Armor too, eventually, Kikko for the best Dex use, Breastplate for everything else.
I would say a Paladin or Bloodrager with UMD as a skill is super versatile.
Alchemist is a very good class that can do a lot of everything.
As far as mundane Versatility anything with Martial flexibility gains a ton of Versatility in things it can do.
Thanks, Unspaceman
Also (more on topic), inquisitors are a very versatile class. Judgements can give them a bump to a lot of things depending on the needs of a fight and bane give them a huge boost to the "f**k this thing in particular" ability.
They can be built well for melee or ranged, have a good selection of skills and a good pool of skill points, have access to domains and inquisitions for shoring up weaknesses or, in the case of the conversion inquisition, allowing them to function as a face while still dumping cha.
Theyre only 3/4 bab but get 6th level spells and a class feature that lets them use teamwork feats without needing another member of the party to have them. Sanctified slayer and ravener hunter are both good archetypes to look at as well.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So first off, since you're new, here's how combat works.
you either do HP damage (hit with sword or shoot with bow), or you do something to help your team do HP damage(haste or other offensive buffs), or help your team not die(control spells, defensive buffs, healing)
Also, combat actions are quite repetitive. Most characters do the same thing in most combats. The wizard casts the same 2 spells in every fight, the cleric does the same 2 buffs every fight. The archer uses a bow every round and the sword-guy uses a sword every round. The reason for this is that your role needs to be filled, and the actions you use to fill that will likely be the same every fight. And all fights need to get to the point where the enemies are down (dead or by non-lethal) or have surrendered.
A martial class is VERY good at doing HP damage, aka hitting with sword or shooting with bow. There's very little and infrequent times that someone that can damage real good would WANT to do anything different. "I can try to trip him or just kill him this round. Which one will kill him faster?"
Also the only* thing for a martial to do outside of doing damage is combat maneuvers. And to do them you need to REALLY focus on getting bit numbers to pull them off. That's why martial flexibility is needed, it lets you specialize in something to try it on the fly. But if they are doing maneuvers (providing control) then someone else in the party is needing to be the one doing the damage. Thus if your role is damage, even if you could try for maneuvers, your best choice is doing damage.
Also, you stick with one attack option and make it good. A sword user level 1-5 has a back-up bow that he uses against a flying enemy that never lands and attacks at range. level 5+ he should have some way to fly to get in close and use the sword, a caster casting fly, self flying, or potions of fly. It is far cheaper and more effective getting in close to the flying enemy than trying to use a bow as well as a sword. Same for bow users, your bow skills are so good lv 3-5+ that switching to a sword will never be the better option than continue to use your bow.
Now that combat flexibility has been addressed
Paladin with the good charisma can do diplomacy and intimidate well for out of combat, he wont be good at much, be he can be quite good at a few charisma skills.
Any class going ranged fighting and thus having a good dex can pick up stealth, disable device.
And perception and hunting(survival skill) is any class.
Getting them as class skills is really the only deciding/limiting factor, and that can sometimes be fixed by traits.
But all classes, even the fighter now, have ways to try and play the skills game. You just need to build your character for it rather than dumping all mental stats.
Brawler is awesome for versatility but requires system mastery to actually utilize martial versatitly (the class feature). Bard actually makes a pretty good martial. Go arcane duelist, pick up lingering performance and consider inspire courage as a buff for yourself that just happens to buff others. You keep up with full BAB classes pretty well. Grab a couple combat spells if you with but you can probably get by focusing your spells known on utility. The best spells have utility both in and out of combat. you'll also have masive skill flexibility.
I think Slayer is a pretty good Martial class in terms of Versatility.
You have full BAB (and therefore d10 HD), 6 SP/LvL, up to 7d6 Sneak Attack without investment, and you get all the benefits of Favored Enemy with none of the downsides. The Slayer Talents are great, you can pick up a Ranger Combat Style (and therefore ignore the Prerequisites of certain feats), Trapfinding (and be a Martial Troubleshooter), and/or Poison Use (and be a true Assassin from level 2).
Is the bloodrager a martial? How about the Occultist if they take the "trappings of the warrior" panoply to get full BAB? The Kineticist doesn't get spells, so does it count? I'm not really clear on what a "martial" is, but those are classes I like.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm... Tough to answer a question phrased like that. PF is a game system that rewards specialization (within limits) more than extreme versatility. For example a classic jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none is actually really easy to build. However, it tends to not do well in actual play except in some narrow circumstances. Like if there are only 2 players, so both are trying to cover lots of roles (and the GM adjusts for it) then neither will outshine the other. Other wise the master-of-none gets to spend most of the game watching the other players be better all the time.
Also remember that although I did say the system rewards specialization, most people find being a one-trick-pony quickly gets boring since you have nothing to do when their one trick doesn't apply.
One of the most versatile capabilities is spell casting. But you said you want martial and don't want to focus on spell casting. There is a lot of wiggle room there. I have seen some full caster cleric or battle oracle builds that in combat usually use their spells for just 1 or 2 buffs then go to town with a weapon. But then outside of combat, they still have all their remaining spells for utility tasks. But again this is a caster not a martial class.
Another thing to consider is your statement that you are new to the game. There are a few very versatile classes, that are very complex and difficult for beginners. Magi, poisoner alchemist, medium, etc...
When I work with someone on a new brand build I prefer not to start with the class. If for no other reason than you can use many different builds to perform the same role. There are great archer builds that start with ranger, fighter, monk, magus, inquisitor, and/or paladin. Which one you choose depends upon what else you want the PC to do.
My preference is to start with a few questions.
1) Do you have some backstory or personality already set that requires some particular race, ability, weapon, or whatever?
2) What is the primary thing you want him to usually do in a fight?
3) What is the secondary thing you want him to do when the primary isn't possible/advisable?
4) What is the primary thing you want to do when not in combat?
5) What is the secondary thing you want to do when not in combat if the primary isn't a good option?
6) Anything else you want to keep in mind?
Sounds like a Barbarian to me. There are some rage powers to help with grabbing and trowing people around. Make sure to put ranks in Perception and Sense Motive.
It depends on how you define "versatile," as well. A medium can be extremely versatile, given the opportunity (or using an archetype like spirit dancer or storyteller, for a more "at will" versatility that isn't dependent on seance location).
An investigator (or, more likely, a swashbuckler (inspired blade) 1/investigator) is no slouch in either the martial or versatile categories, either.
|
A strength-based investigator can perform excellently as a martial while providing a bunch of utility. A longspear with a combined Enlarge/Long Arm extract is popular, and gives you a hilarious 25ft reach - definitely an entertaining and useful combat benefit. Plus, you're an investigator so you get the best skill package in the game.
Always Alchemist.
Also we should get on the difinition of versatility.
Do you want to be versatile as having a lot of options to do in combat or you don't care so much about it and you want to be able to help the party outside combat like being able to do the scouting, diplomacy, etc. but you don't care about keeping it more simple in combat?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Fighters are as versatile as the player chooses to make them, and have the feats available to fill more than one role.
Honestly any class with a decent UMD skill, decent income, and an open market is extremely versatile.
It is a known fact Spells can negate needs for skills and some spells used in the right moment can win fights.
For example Casting Fly on an archer. Not only does he not need to Climb or Swim, He can not be tripped, and he can always have the higher ground. If an enemy has no way to respond (Counter attack or Cover) to the flying archer. Then the Archer auto wins the encounter with ease and not risking anyone else in the party.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ranger or Slayer. 6+Int skills per level, combat style bonus feats (that ignore prereqs), and either talents or casting. Plus don't forget the myriad skills bonuses that favored enemy, studied target, and favored terrain add.
For most vigilantes, I prefer to think of him most like the Lone Ranger. The Lone Ranger goes almost everywhere and does almost everything while in his secret identity. If he wasn't wearing his Lone Ranger outfit, he'd be disguised as something else, like an old man.
You can also have the social identity be no one of importance, so that even if someone saw him in that form, they wouldn't have any way of knowing who he is. It's like that time Lex Luthor unmasked the Flash, "I.. have no idea who this is."
You can also just be in your social identity 24/7. With only a few exceptions in some of the archetypes nothing really requires you to be in vigilante identity. Just do a Tony Stark.
Seconded. There is no mechanical penalty to having your identity revealed. Vigilante is the best and most versatile martial in the game (that doesn't have spells). You want to hit things good? Go with the Avenger.
In combat versatility.. Hmm.. I suppose things like, Pulling out a bow to shoot at flying enemies and then changing to a melee weapon to fight the grounded enemies, Maybe able to buff allies somehow, Just a bit more then having every turn go "I hit it with my sword." or "Enemy is flying so I stand here till it lands."
Like I said before, and will quote below, a full bab melee character has a back-up bow for the times lv1-4 that he can't reach a flying enemy. You don't need archery feats since this is the temporary back-up option. Then get fly to close in on the enemy.
Also buffing's only purpose is to help you kill them faster. So if your buffing someone else isn't better than you attacking at killing the enemy then you shouldn't be buffing.you either do HP damage (hit with sword or shoot with bow), or you do something to help your team do HP damage(haste or other offensive buffs), or help your team not die(control spells, defensive buffs, healing)
Also, combat actions are quite repetitive. Most characters do the same thing in most combats. The wizard casts the same 2 spells in every fight, the cleric does the same 2 buffs every fight. The archer uses a bow every round and the sword-guy uses a sword every round. The reason for this is that your role needs to be filled, and the actions you use to fill that will likely be the same every fight. And all fights need to get to the point where the enemies are down (dead or by non-lethal) or have surrendered.
A martial class is VERY good at doing HP damage, aka hitting with sword or shooting with bow. There's very little and infrequent times that someone that can damage real good would WANT to do anything different. "I can try to trip him or just kill him this round. Which one will kill him faster?"
Also the only* thing for a martial to do outside of doing damage is combat maneuvers. And to do them you need to REALLY focus on getting bit numbers to pull them off. That's why martial flexibility is needed, it lets you specialize in something to try it on the fly. But if they are doing maneuvers (providing control) then someone else in the party is needing to be the one doing the damage. Thus if your role is damage, even if you could try for maneuvers, your best choice is doing damage.
Also, you stick with one attack option and make it good. A sword user level 1-5 has a back-up bow that he uses against a flying enemy that never lands and attacks at range. level 5+ he should have some way to fly to get in close and use the sword, a caster casting fly, self flying, or potions of fly. It is far cheaper and more effective getting in close to the flying enemy than trying to use a bow as well as a sword. Same for bow users, your bow skills are so good lv 3-5+ that switching to a sword will never be the better option than continue to use your bow.
TLDR:
If you're good enough that hit it with a sword is a good option, it's going to be your best option basically every time. Why are you viewing this as a bad thing?
For pure Martial with no spells or anything i would go Slayer but if you are forgoing spell casting classes than you are also forgoing most versatility outside of combat. For strong martial ability plus the ability to have a strong out of combat impact i would look at one of these
Bloordrager (best in combat ability of these recomendations, not as much to do outside of combat)
Bloodrager gets 4+Int in skills. (More than the Paladin). They only need few points point in Survival, 1 point in Swim and Climb, and the rest are open for what ever. If you have a wizard who can do the Knowledge and spellcrafts you can grab face skills...like Intimidate, Diplomacy, and bluff. You can get traits to provide the skills you do not have. You should have roughly a 12 Cha (at least that what I like to start with). So your alright at them.
Like I have mentioned adding UMD to your skill list gives amazing versatility. Scrolls and Wands are cheap and you can buy what you need for out of combat.
If your a talented RPer you can come up with PLENTY to do outside combat. A bloodrager is not like the famous brain damaged Barbarian running around AM SMASH, AM STRONK, AM STUPID.... No they do not have to be that way and I honestly hate even reading/hearing the AM SMASH approach as it is over done and does kill most your out of combat options. But a Bloodrager does not have to follow suite.
You can also just be in your social identity 24/7. With only a few exceptions in some of the archetypes nothing really requires you to be in vigilante identity. Just do a Tony Stark.Seconded. There is no mechanical penalty to having your identity revealed.
Losing your divination immunity while in the other identify is your mechanical penalty for having your identity revealed.
|
Welcome to Pathfinder. Here we do not play WoW, there is no Flavor of the Month Class that is the 1 man wrecking crew that comes with most games because every class has both strengths and weaknesses. Often the most powerfull builds also have the most dangerous weaknesses. More Balanced Builds will be short on weakness, but still have many areas they are not "Strong"
Gunslinger's may be #1 for dealing massive damage that always hits, but they generally have weak Will saves and low skill points. A dominated/Confused Gunslinger can TPK (Total Party Kill) a party faster than some of the most powerful BBEGs (Big Bad Evil Guy).
By Comparison, a Zen Archer may be very mediocre damage in comparison, and still be very weak on skill options, but they have defensive abilities and saves that can hardly be touched by any other class.
I'm sorry but Glrof Fei-hung is correct. At low levels Zen Archers are great, because no one has gotten really big damage bonuses yet, and they get some good options before others do.
But the class doesn't have much beyond extra attacks to deal more damage. They can substitute unarmed strike damage (okay but not great), they get weapon spec, and a couple extra attacks.
But when you're competition can have the same number of attacks using Manyshot and Rapid Shot, can do things like cast Divine Favor for a scaling bonus to attack and damage which grants extra attacks like haste, or has weapon training (Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest), or has Judgment and Greater Bane, or a whole host of different options....well the zen archery just doesn't come out that great. They're good up till around level 10, and then everybody else's class features start to really kick in and leave the zen archer behind.
The best damage on an archer is accomplished with something like Legacy Weapon, Warrior Spirit, or the Inquisitor class feature of the same name slapping an appropriate bane on your weapon isn't it?
I feel like the ZAM is best considered as the baseline against which other archers are measured, since this is the "very easy to build and play option" that will still do good enough damage for level appropriate encounters unless the GM is trying to hose you. If your archer can't do better than the ZAM, rethink things.
I did get one idea for a character.. A Halfling who grew up in a smallish halfling settlement that came under attack by bandits who ket raiding them, So they built up a strong milita to fend off the attacks, Including getting help from a couple of Cavaliers who helped train them and fight. The Halflings father was in the milita and when he came of age so was the halfling, And he was taken up as a Cavalier of the Order of the Paw. Though time went on, The bandits had been mostly defeated or driven away and there was years of peace, And so the young halfling was struck with the wanderlust and, His family and friends gave him what help they could and so he left to see the world!
Silly idea mayhaps, But I am still new to all this. My plan for him was to have him ride a wolf (Cus I love wolves) and he would be a very friendly and talkative character, With ranks in Diplomacy, And maybe bluff..
Not a silly idea. Entire lines of novels have been written, published, and turned into horrible movies with multiple sequels with less.
Besides, small cavaliers with mounts aren't a mechanically bad thing (aside from reduced damage)...they usually don't have to leave their mounts behind when they get into dungeons and tombs.
If you want to get more complicated (not that I'm recommending it unless you feel comfortable after looking into it), a cavalier with VMC (variant multiclassing) bard becomes one heck of a support melee character without having to worry about spells.