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Also the prob with these 'Rankings' threads is that they are very situational...
For example, A lot of people havent ranked the Druid high but then if you had to solo an adventure, a Druid would probably be the best class choice going!!
Depends entirely on what level you're talking. At 20th the wizard is far better solo than the Druid. Early levels the Druid is definitely better. Middle levels...eh...
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The biggest power difference in full casters is the player, not the RAW.
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Don't forget shapechange for druids. Its an amazingly versatile spell and really lets druids conserve spells if you've got LONG days.
Yes, wizards get it too. But a druid is much more likely to have the stats to actually be able to use a lot of the abilities effectively.
And the ring of natural attunement (leshy) adds GREAT options at high levels.
One huge advantage of the druid is versatility. Especially comes up in PFS, of course.
And even at high levels a fully buffed Animal Companion is rather terrifying.
All that said, I think a strong argument can be made for a sorcerer with the Rasmiran Priest archetype. Full access to wizard list and all divine spells up to level 8 is pretty sweet.
It is pretty hard to beat the Wizard, Cleric and Druid for depth, utility and sheer power.
I feel the distance people are putting between spontaneous casters and prepared casters is overrated. Particularly wizards vs. sorcerers, since the primary argument for the supremacy of wizards is due to a handful of specific spells on the wizard/sorcerer spell list; if those spells are so powerful why wouldn't a sorcerer take them as well? Even 9th level spells - of which a sorcerer will learn only 3 + bloodline (without taking any feats) - how much power is the sorcerer missing out on after she takes time stop and whatever two of gate/shapechange/wish isn't her bloodline spell? (Celestial bloodline gives gate, Draconic/Arcane wish, and Fey/Aberrant for shapechange.)
And that's 9th level spells. A human sorcerer will end up learning 6 + bloodline 8th level spells. Are they really missing out by not being able to take the 7th best and worse 8th level spells?
Versatility is always going to be strong, but when versatility realistically means the ability to memorize some corner-case spell that's relevant four times over the course of the campaign instead of buying a scroll it does lose a bit of its prominence.
The biggest power difference in full casters is the player, not the RAW.
Fact
With things like versatile spontenaity and mnemonic vestments the line between spontaneous and prepared caster versatility gets pretty thin. This leaves prepared casters with only earlier access to spell levels and faster metamagic. These differences become much less important after level 18 when both have 9th level spells and move actions are less important.
1) Druid; spont summons and wild shape
2) Sorcerer; better spont summons, pages of spell knowledge, bloodlines are stronger than schools, better lichdom, stronger skills
3) Archanist; spont summons but less of them
4) Wizard; general nonsense
5) Cleric; the original godling
6) Witch; Hexes are a class by itself, but then it gets full casting to
7) others...
8) any full caster that can't summon.
1) Druid; spont summons and wild shape
2) Sorcerer; better spont summons, pages of spell knowledge, bloodlines are stronger than schools, better lichdom, stronger skills
3) Archanist; spont summons but less of them
4) Wizard; general nonsense
5) Cleric; the original godling
6) Witch; Hexes are a class by itself, but then it gets full casting to
7) others...
8) any full caster that can't summon.If you're focusing on Summoning ability, I'd have to say that the options for Arcane summoning are better than Druidic. Druids are limited to Summon Nature's Ally, which is good, but doesn't have the same level of Oomph as Summon Monster at high levels (There is a Feat that would allow a Cleric to have full Summon Nature's Ally access while keeping full Summon Monster access, which is interesting). Summoning a Tyrannosaurus, Cloud Giant, or Storm Giant is great for beating face, but doesn't have the flexibility granted by the extra-planar creatures available to Summon Monster.
Additionally, Summon Monster has a larger number of feats available that expand the list of creatures that can be summoned.
Lastly, Druid doesn't (normally, there might be a niche way I don't know about) have access to Planar Biding or Planar Ally. While not quite the same as Summon Monster, it is similar, and potentially far more powerful.
All true, but the druid kit has spont summoning while still being a prepared caster, which is more useful for having access to all of the niche spells.
I'm also taking into account all levels. Wildshape is very useful and I forgot to mention this, but animal companions basically carry you through low levels and remain always useful if you put in the spell slot effort.
Druids are just really strong in basically any game while not breaking it.
*raises hand*
If we're saying the druid is powerful largely because it can spontaneously summon animals....
Herald Caller clerics are even better.
*raises hand*
If we're saying the druid is powerful largely because it can spontaneously summon animals....
Herald Caller clerics are even better.
Well that archetype is either #2 or #3 for me. Druids still have wildshape, and an animal companion.
Hmmmm, BUT clerics get sacred summons. Spontaneous standard action summons bumps that archetype to rank 1. Best spellcaster
In which case the Occultist Arcanist is even more powerful because it can Spont summon scaling 1 minute per level Summon Monster spells that do not cost spell slots.
I feel the distance people are putting between spontaneous casters and prepared casters is overrated. Particularly wizards vs. sorcerers, since the primary argument for the supremacy of wizards is due to a handful of specific spells on the wizard/sorcerer spell list; if those spells are so powerful why wouldn't a sorcerer take them as well? Even 9th level spells - of which a sorcerer will learn only 3 + bloodline (without taking any feats) - how much power is the sorcerer missing out on after she takes time stop and whatever two of gate/shapechange/wish isn't her bloodline spell? (Celestial bloodline gives gate, Draconic/Arcane wish, and Fey/Aberrant for shapechange.)
And that's 9th level spells. A human sorcerer will end up learning 6 + bloodline 8th level spells. Are they really missing out by not being able to take the 7th best and worse 8th level spells?
Versatility is always going to be strong, but when versatility realistically means the ability to memorize some corner-case spell that's relevant four times over the course of the campaign instead of buying a scroll it does lose a bit of its prominence.
That's at level 20. Levels 4-18 the sorcerer only ever knows 1 of their highest level of spells (even numbered levels, when they can cast the same level of spells as the wizard) or 3 (odd-numbered levels, when they're a spell level behind). Less if they go into a prestige class which some do. Even less if they make the mistake of taking the crossblooded archetype. Versatility is a real issue for sorcerers at most levels.
OK, from ~level 10 or so this is less of an issue because their next level of spells from the top is still serious business. Ignoring it because at level 20 it's not important is a mistake though IMO.
In which case the Occultist Arcanist is even more powerful because it can Spont summon scaling 1 minute per level Summon Monster spells that do not cost spell slots.
Ah but they can only have one out at a time
I feel the distance people are putting between spontaneous casters and prepared casters is overrated. Particularly wizards vs. sorcerers, since the primary argument for the supremacy of wizards is due to a handful of specific spells on the wizard/sorcerer spell list; if those spells are so powerful why wouldn't a sorcerer take them as well? Even 9th level spells - of which a sorcerer will learn only 3 + bloodline (without taking any feats) - how much power is the sorcerer missing out on after she takes time stop and whatever two of gate/shapechange/wish isn't her bloodline spell? (Celestial bloodline gives gate, Draconic/Arcane wish, and Fey/Aberrant for shapechange.)
And that's 9th level spells. A human sorcerer will end up learning 6 + bloodline 8th level spells. Are they really missing out by not being able to take the 7th best and worse 8th level spells?
Versatility is always going to be strong, but when versatility realistically means the ability to memorize some corner-case spell that's relevant four times over the course of the campaign instead of buying a scroll it does lose a bit of its prominence.
And yet they are still missing some: Aroden's Spellbane, Astral Projection, Create Demiplane, Summon Monster IX, Shades, Dominate Monster.
Also there are spells really powerful intended for downtime, and an spontaneous casters is not going to waste her spells known in such spells.
That's at level 20. Levels 4-18 the sorcerer only ever knows 1 of their highest level of spells (even numbered levels, when they can cast the same level of spells as the wizard) or 3 (odd-numbered levels, when they're a spell level behind). Less if they go into a prestige class which some do. Even less if they make the mistake of taking the crossblooded archetype. Versatility is a real issue for sorcerers at most levels.
OK, from ~level 10 or so this is less of an issue because their next level of spells from the top is still serious business. Ignoring it because at level 20 it's not important is a mistake though IMO.
I'm not disputing that wizards are generally stronger than sorcerers, merely the degree of how much stronger they are. I still think that if Wizards are #1 primarily because of their spell list, then sorcerers should probably be #2.
I'm not disputing that wizards are generally stronger than sorcerers, merely the degree of how much stronger they are. I still think that if Wizards are #1 primarily because of their spell list, then sorcerers should probably be #2.That's at level 20. Levels 4-18 the sorcerer only ever knows 1 of their highest level of spells (even numbered levels, when they can cast the same level of spells as the wizard) or 3 (odd-numbered levels, when they're a spell level behind). Less if they go into a prestige class which some do. Even less if they make the mistake of taking the crossblooded archetype. Versatility is a real issue for sorcerers at most levels.
OK, from ~level 10 or so this is less of an issue because their next level of spells from the top is still serious business. Ignoring it because at level 20 it's not important is a mistake though IMO.
It doesn't help that sorcerers have a bizarre optimization curve.
They start off beside the wizard in the "generally terrible if you don't pick the right stuff" region. The sorcerer starts falling behind the wizard as skill levels get better because they can't fix their bad spell selections without gaining a lot of levels, while the wizard can rectify their screw ups the next day (or at worst, with some gold and time to copy new spells into their book). Then the sorcerer starts picking up fast and exceeds the wizard when their player is good enough to pick the "goodstuff" spells, but not good enough to pick the best spells for the situation each day (with absolutely no contextual information, warning or prep time, Sorcerer>Wizard). Then they fall back again as the wizard gets better at prepping appropriate spells and the sorcerer's locked spell selection starts to hurt them badly. Then the sorcerer starts to pick up again as they get all the flexibility boosters (paragon surge, pages, ring of spell knowledge, mnemonic vestment) and they almost catch up to the wizard.
And then things like Razmiran Priest Sage Bloodline Kitsune Enchanters show up, and the Sorcerer blows the wizard out of the water and takes its place as the most powerful class in the game hands down.
It is really a mess.
These lists would change a bit if made for 5th, 10th, or 15th level casters. I have played a cleric up to 18th once (it was awesome), but otherwise have little experience past 10th level. I think this is the case for most players.
Dang buggy site, any way. Shaman at 15+ is not going to shake the world like a true wizard, sorry but they cant base the perfect list to stop anything, be anywhere or topple any government with 24 hour notice. Wizard can damn well break the game unless they play nice when ran by a good arcane player.
Shaman is a nice jack of many trades, master of none.