Thor: Ragnarok trailer

[JamZilla]

Love the direction this seems to be taking now

[Shadow Kosh]

Cole Deschain wrote:

Thor telling Banner, "I won. Easily." "That doesn't seem right."

Doesn't seem that implausible to me. MCU Hulk got defeated by the Hulkbuster armor. Stark's ___-buster armors NEVER win in the comics. Unless you count holding the world record for fastest time to change from high technology to scrap metal.

If the Hulkbuster armor can defeat MCU Hulk, then Thor wipes the floor with him, no problem.

[John Kretzer]

Shadow Kosh wrote:

Cole Deschain wrote:

Thor telling Banner, "I won. Easily." "That doesn't seem right."

Doesn't seem that implausible to me. MCU Hulk got defeated by the Hulkbuster armor. Stark's ___-buster armors NEVER win in the comics. Unless you count holding the world record for fastest time to change from high technology to scrap metal.

If the Hulkbuster armor can defeat MCU Hulk, then Thor wipes the floor with him, no problem.

I do not think the Hulkbuster won...Hulk was shaking Wanda's control and was calming down when he got punched out.

[Set]

John Kretzer wrote:

I do not think the Hulkbuster won... Hulk was shaking Wanda's control and was calming down when he got punched out.

Same thought here. The fight was essentially over, as Hulk (or Banner, in Hulk) was reacting to the fearful crowds, but Tony, perhaps caught up in the adrenaline of the moment, went for a cheap shot anyway.

I suppose we'll see in November, but I expect Hulk to throw Thor around a bit and only lose by a hair, if at all (and certainly not 'easily').

I like that they seem to be giving the Hulk and Thor some of the bantery competitiveness that the comic book Thor shares with Hercules.

[Thomas Seitz]

Set,

Indeed! I hope that means we'll see the Prince of Power too come along some how.

[Cole Deschain]

Shadow Kosh wrote:

Cole Deschain wrote:

Thor telling Banner, "I won. Easily." "That doesn't seem right."

Doesn't seem that implausible to me. MCU Hulk got defeated by the Hulkbuster armor. Stark's ___-buster armors NEVER win in the comics. Unless you count holding the world record for fastest time to change from high technology to scrap metal.

If the Hulkbuster armor can defeat MCU Hulk, then Thor wipes the floor with him, no problem.

Yeah, but that's now how the scene appears to be written- it's cut like Thor is pulling Banner's leg because why not?

Especially since this is Thor sans Mjolnir.

[Delightful]

I think we've already established that Thor is going to be entering the Avatar State at some point in this film, so my guess is that used his lightningbending on Hulk during the arena fight and that's how he won easily.

Makes sense, right.

[Hama]

He didn't win. It's as simple as that.

[Thomas Seitz]

As much as I love our Thunder God, even I must concede. Hulk is the strongest there is.

[Delightful]

Hama wrote:

He didn't win. It's as simple as that.

No, I think my lightningbending theory makes a lot more sense.

[captain yesterday]

Hulk is wearing some serious bling in that last scene, they don't usually give that to the loser. :-)

[TriOmegaZero]

No, I think Thor glossing over the truth makes the most sense.

[Thomas Seitz]

Tri,

There's that too.

Also lighting bending I think comes later.

[Vidmaster7]

Yeah thor was joking. It was definetly set up as a joke. Probably right after Thor getting royally thrashed by hulk. Now Thor with hammer I'm pretty sure Thor tends to win that fight more often then he losses.

[lowfyr01]

Problem is that even without the hammer, Thor has his full strength, fighting experience and the lightning. So a win against the hulk is still possible.

I think the main problem is simply that Thor gets too often reduced to " guy with hammer" and people forget his own abilities.

[Vidmaster7]

Yeah modern thor very true. If I'm remembering correctly old Thor lost his powers without his hammer. I also Think with the hammer being destroyed shouldn't he still become weaker even in this incarnation?

[lowfyr01]

Old thor reverted back to Donald Blake after 60 seconds without the hammer.

I think the one thing he loose is the power of flight. But then he can use his chariot drawn by goats for that^^

And one thing pointing to him being as powerful with or without hammer is the inscription on it.

[JamZilla]

I'm on Team Hulk for this one.

I know you can't use Planet Hulk as a baseline for everything, and to be fair the comics can be inconsistent with themselves in terms of power levels, but his potential is limited only by how angry he gets.

I feel like this could devolve into a huge debate though and so I think the one thing we can agree on is that the trailer looks awesome.

[Vidmaster7]

I thought the lighting powers went as well without the hammer.

Yeah I think it tends to vary on who wins between those two I always felt Thor was suppose to be marvels Bad@$$. Hulk gets used as a gauge and thrown at virtually everyone. My opinion is they could go either way. Depends whose madder at the time.

[Mark Thomas 66]

The Hulkbuster armor was more like the "Occupy Hulk for ten minutes" armor.

[Vidmaster7]

Mark Thomas 66 wrote:

The Hulkbuster armor was more like the "Occupy Hulk for ten minutes" armor.

You say that like its not impressive.

[Jaelithe]

The only way in 616 the Hulk (or, for that matter, Superman or most any other hero) should win is if Thor stupidly goes toe-to-toe with him, leading with his chin and trading blows, and using only a bit of lightning for co[s]m[et]ic effect. Sadly, this is usually what happens, because in-universe Thor's ego won't allow him to admit that the Hulk's strength can surpass even his own. In addition (and in reality), the Hulk is more popular, and having him conclusively beaten by Thor—which is precisely what would occur if the Thunder God actually employed a couple of his cosmic powers and fought tactically—would ruffle too many Hulk fan-boy feathers. Thus, the writers never do it, IMO. ANY version of the Hulk should have virtually ZERO chance against any being with vastly superior transit powers and the ability to deliver the kind of damage that could potentially disintegrate him, like Thor, the Silver Surfer, Thanos, Black Bolt, the Sentry and a few others.

The MCU is another matter. No reason the Hulk shouldn't win. They're different versions of the characters. The, "I won, easily" comment was hilarious in context. Works for a "buddy" movie.

[thejeff]

Jaelithe wrote:

The only way in 616 the Hulk (or, for that matter, Superman or most any other hero) should win is if Thor stupidly goes toe-to-toe with him, leading with his chin and trading blows, and using only a bit of lightning for co[s]m[et]ic effect. Sadly, this is usually what happens, because in-universe Thor's ego won't allow him to admit that the Hulk's strength can surpass even his own. In addition (and in reality), the Hulk is more popular, and having him conclusively beaten by Thor—which is precisely what would occur if the Thunder God actually employed a couple of his cosmic powers and fought tactically—would ruffle too many Hulk fan-boy feathers. Thus, the writers never do it, IMO. ANY version of the Hulk should have virtually ZERO chance against any being with vastly superior transit powers and the ability to deliver the kind of damage that could potentially disintegrate him, like Thor, the Silver Surfer, Thanos, Black Bolt, the Sentry and a few others.

The MCU is another matter. No reason the Hulk shouldn't win. They're different versions of the characters. The, "I won, easily" comment was hilarious in context. Works for a "buddy" movie.

Thor without the hammer is a somewhat different story. A lot of those "cosmic powers" are tied up in it as is the flight and much of the lightning.

(And Thor would lose easily to Superman, if Superman used all his powers and fought tactically - which he also rarely does. Superspeed is a gamechanger.)

[Jaelithe]

thejeff wrote:

Thor without the hammer is a somewhat different story. A lot of those "cosmic powers" are tied up in it as is the flight and much of the lightning.

(And Thor would lose easily to Superman, if Superman used all his powers and fought tactically - which he also rarely does. Superspeed is a gamechanger.)

Well, Thor and the hammer are a package deal (unless you're Jason Aarons, of course) ... and it's been strongly implied regularly, and explicitly stated on occasion (once each by Thor and Odin) that Thor's powers transcend that of Mjolnir. It's very likely that the hammer is more a focus or lens, rather than the source of power, in many cases. Obviously he can't be allowed to become what he could be, largely because he'd go from a demigod among men to a more-transcendent-and-wholly-uninteresting-as-a-comic-hero being.

As to Thor vs. Superman ... Nope. Not even close.

Superman has a chance in a solar system with a yellow sun. Elsewhere? Not so much. Thor is Thor everywhere; Superman's just some dude in much of the universe. ;)

Joking aside ... Thor's super speed is inconsistently written, but he possesses it, and certainly enough to likely neutralize Superman's advantage if the Man of Steel decided to "cheat" and employ it. It's not part of his customary schtick ... but it's there. We've seen him teach the speedsters Quicksilver, Hyperion (a Superman pastiche, note) and Zefra hard lessons, and he's thrown Mjolnir halfway across the galaxy only to have it return within seconds. We've seen him twirl his cape and create a tornado. I'm just scratching the surface, here.

On the other hand, Thor's also admitted that Wolverine is faster than he is. So ... yeah. I'd say Supes is faster than that version of Thor. :D

Ultimately, IMO, Thor has innumerable powers that leave him completely out of Superman's league. There's really nothing Supes could do to Galactus or the Celestials, for example ... and Thor's made the former run like a little girl and punched a hole in their executioner Exitar's battle armor, respectively.

First encounter, Superman beats Thor, until Thor understands that Supes can take it and dish it out. (Even Busiek, who really doesn't like Thor, says as much in JLA/Avengers, where he writes Superman knocking Thor out after a hard battle in which Thor leads with his chin and does nothing at all interesting.)

Going all out, Classic Thor beats, even disintegrates, post-Byrne Superman. Odinforce Thor (who can stop time, reassemble the moon molecule by molecule, et al.) beats any non-transcendent version of Superman, even planet-moving Silver Age Superman. As to the crazy powerful beings like Rune King Thor, Superman Prime/One Million/Cosmic Armor, who can say?

Ultimately, though, either you or I could write a plausible story in which the Man of Steel defeats the God of Thunder, and vice versa.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Jaelithe wrote:

Ultimately, though, either you or I could write a plausible story in which the Man of Steel defeats the God of Thunder, and vice versa.

Steel's a pretty decent conductor, isn't it? Particularly at 1.Odinson gigawatts?

[Thomas Seitz]

Wei,

Yeah but the fact Superman beat up Goku twice does make the Man of Steel's fight in these kind of situations a bit one sided at times.

Even so, Thor versus Superman is still my dream match.

[thejeff]

Well, I was positing "without Mjolnir", since this started with the movie Thor vs Hulk and he doesn't have the hammer for that scene. Similarly, I ignore Thor with the Odinforce or any of the other variants.

I mean, I get it. You love Thor, like I do and think he's pretty much unstoppable. But you're picking outliers in Thor's presentation to justify it.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

I think part of this is we are all pretty familiar with Thor of Marvel 616's abilities, but the changes made to define Thor of the MCU are a bit fuzzier. I was kind of assuming from the previous movies and this new trailer that 1) MCU Thor has been using Mjolnir as a crutch, thinking it is the source of his lightning powers, and 2) by the final confrontation of Team Thor vs. Hela, Thor figures out the lightning powers always came from him, not Mjolnir (or Mjolnir could channel lightning too, but Thor doesn't need it to focus his innate lightning abilities). This hints at his growth into the true God of Thunder and coming into being a worthy heir for Asgard's throne (not that he wants it).

But back to earlier, I'm pretty sure Hulk wins the brute force/physical combat portion of the arena fight with Thor.

[Freehold DM]

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

I think part of this is we are all pretty familiar with Thor of Marvel 616's abilities, but the changes made to define Thor of the MCU are a bit fuzzier. I was kind of assuming from the previous movies and this new trailer that 1) MCU Thor has been using Mjolnir as a crutch, thinking it is the source of his lightning powers, and 2) by the final confrontation of Team Thor vs. Hela, Thor figures out the lightning powers always came from him, not Mjolnir (or Mjolnir could channel lightning too, but Thor doesn't need it to focus his innate lightning abilities). This hints at his growth into the true God of Thunder and coming into being a worthy heir for Asgard's throne (not that he wants it).

But back to earlier, I'm pretty sure Hulk wins the brute force/physical combat portion of the arena fight with Thor.

indeed. Very scion-esque.

[Set]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

I thought the lighting powers went as well without the hammer.

Traditionally, yes, but it's an occasional theme that Thor needs to lose his hammer to remember that he's the god of thunder without it, and doesn't actually need it to bring the lightning. (Currently occurring in the comics, where he has managed to throw some lightning despite being hammer-less.)

Due to the cyclical nature of comic books, it seems to be something he has to re-discover every couple decades.

IIRC, during the Simonson run, when Baldar suddenly discovered he had light-generating powers (after two or three *thousand* years of not knowing he could do this...), it was heavily implied, if not stated outright, that Odin had been siphoning off the power of the other Asgardians for his own use (and that the 'Odin-power' was the power of all the other Asgardian gods). In both his battle with Surtur, and a decade or so before, for a big fight with the Celestials while inhabiting the Destroyer and wielding the 'Odin-sword,' he'd siphoned off the life-forces of the other Asgardians as a 'power-up' before a big fight, so it's definitely a running theme with him.

[Imbicatus]

IIRC, MCU Odin locked away all of Thor's power in the hammer as a punishment. Thor became worthy again and regained his power, but it was still locked in Mjolnir. But when Hela destroys it, that power will return to Thor, where it rightfully belongs.

[Jaelithe]

thejeff wrote:

But you're picking outliers in Thor's presentation to justify it.

Again, nope. They're not "outliers" when it comes to Thor, because it's one of the character's main schticks to possess or invent new powers on the fly, as well as simply being as powerful as the situation requires to be victorious.

Deus ex machina is acceptable when you're a deus.

As to Superman vs. a Thor without his hammer and not having figured out what he can really do ... yeah, Supes would kick his ass.

[Jaelithe]

Set wrote:

IIRC, during the Simonson run, when Bald[e]r suddenly discovered he had light-generating powers (after two or three *thousand* years of not knowing he could do this...), it was heavily implied, if not stated outright, that Odin had been siphoning off the power of the other Asgardians for his own use (and that the 'Odin-power' was the power of all the other Asgardian gods). In both his battle with Surtur, and a decade or so before, for a big fight with the Celestials while inhabiting the Destroyer and wielding the 'Odin-sword,' he'd siphoned off the life-forces of the other Asgardians as a 'power-up' before a big fight, so it's definitely a running theme with him.

Balder implies that he'd never before trained and pushed himself so hard for so long, which had him tapping powers he'd never knew lay deep inside him. Worked for me, but ... YMMV.

Certainly Thomas' run showed Odin at or near his exploitative and manipulative best, but Simonson's portrayed a much wiser and more grandfatherly Odin. I prefer the latter, but certainly understand the former. Odin doesn't steal anything under Simonson's watch, nor does he consider the gods his pawns so much as his children. As a matter of fact, he creates Stormbreaker for Beta Ray Bill, a not-insignificant expenditure of power, primarily out of gratitude, admiration and magnanimity.

The All-Father's vast power is in large measure as a result of his still-living brothers Vili and Ve voluntarily sacrificing their life force and giving it to their younger sibling, that he might function as the god of gods now that they were gone. That conflation of three deities' power became the Odin Force.

[thejeff]

Jaelithe wrote:

thejeff wrote:

But you're picking outliers in Thor's presentation to justify it.

Again, nope. They're not "outliers" when it comes to Thor, because it's one of the character's main schticks to possess or invent new powers on the fly, as well as simply being as powerful as the situation requires to be victorious.

Deus ex machina is acceptable when you're a deus

Yeah, that's pretty much "as powerful as the story needs him to be", which means the Hulk beats him up, if that's what the story needs.

According to you, Thor's made Galactus "run like a little girl", which is definitely on the outlier end. (When was that actually? I don't remember anything like that, unless you're referring to King Thor in Aaron's run, which shouldn't really count, since it's a future Thor with a serious power upgrade.)

As for the "invent new powers on the fly", that was a common thing back in the early days, but it was thankfully mostly left in the past sometime in the 70s.

And the Hulk's actual power set involves getting strong enough to beat whoever he's fighting.

[Jaelithe]

thejeff wrote:

Yeah, that's pretty much "as powerful as the story needs him to be", which means the Hulk beats him up, if that's what the story needs.

Which also means that Spider-Man, Daredevil and Auny May also beat him up if that's what the story needs.

The winning point is that when other characters manifest new powers, it's a contrivance. For Thor, it's a Thursday ... and every day is Thursday.

thejeff wrote:

According to you, Thor's made Galactus "run like a little girl", which is definitely on the outlier end. (When was that actually? I don't remember anything like that, unless you're referring to King Thor in Aaron's run, which shouldn't really count, since it's a future Thor with a serious power upgrade.)

King Thor vs. Galactus was an interesting fight, but I hardly think it counts, either. Thor is essentially Odin, and then ups the ante even more.

I'll assume "according to you" is not an implication that I'm making s@** up.

No, I'm going way back into the 60's, in Thor #161, when, having absorbed some sort of massive energy blast from Mjolnir, Galactus flees, saying something to the effect of, "Another such blow would kill me ... and Galactus must live!"

A lot of this, of course, is from a period before we had the Celestials, and the gods were quite a bit higher on the cosmic totem pole than they are now.

thejeff wrote:

As for the "invent new powers on the fly", that was a common thing back in the early days, but it was thankfully mostly left in the past sometime in the 70s.

Actually, Thor's been doing it well into the 1990s (De Falco), 2000s (Jurgens), and even under Aarons earlier this decade, so ... which, in many ways, proves my point. It's normal for Thor to do such things.

thejeff wrote:

And the Hulk's actual power set involves getting strong enough to beat whoever he's fighting.

Assuming the guy's not powerful enough to drop him like a bad habit first, which Thor is—if he wasn't constantly fighting precisely the way he needs to for the Hulk to beat him. Thor's ego is his own worst enemy: Anyone who stands toe-to-toe with the Hulk deserves to eventually find himself in Downtown Dreamland.

There's actually an odd rhythm to this. Traditionally, before the onset of the Sentry (a character I cannot stand), Blue Marvel, and a few others, Thor, Hulk and Silver Surfer stood alone at the top of the Marvel hierarchy. In face-to-face encounters, customarily, Silver Surfer gets the best of the Hulk, the Hulk does the same to Thor ... but Thor usually handles the Silver Surfer. Thus, a balance was maintained.

[Shrugs]

[Thomas Seitz]

In any case, I look forward to seeing Thor smash some Fire Giants.

[Damon Griffin]

Jaelithe wrote:

...Thor's made [Galactus] run like a little girl...

Galactus ain't so tough. I haven't read the story, but I understand he was once beaten by Squirrel Girl. Squirrel. Girl.

[Vidmaster7]

Man squirrel girl has beat up everyone. Don't underestimate Doreen Green

[Mark Thomas 66]

Damon Griffin wrote:

Jaelithe wrote:

...Thor's made [Galactus] run like a little girl...

Galactus ain't so tough. I haven't read the story, but I understand he was once beaten by Squirrel Girl. Squirrel. Girl.

Squirrel Girl is Marvel's One Punch Man. An industry joke that some people take way too seriously.

[Un-Bear-able Puns]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Man squirrel girl has beat up everyone. Don't underestimate Doreen Green

You would be nuts to do so.

[Freehold DM]

Mark Thomas 66 wrote:

Damon Griffin wrote:

Jaelithe wrote:

...Thor's made [Galactus] run like a little girl...

Galactus ain't so tough. I haven't read the story, but I understand he was once beaten by Squirrel Girl. Squirrel. Girl.

Squirrel Girl is Marvel's One Punch Man. An industry joke that some people take way too seriously.

there are days where I could kiss you

[Rosgakori]

I hesitate to call her joke, since her own series (EISNER-winning one) is legit really fun and good. And it is more like fun times superhero adventures with no care for complex canons or histories without taking everything so effing seriously, and I adore it

And since she does not take part in civil wars, infinities or various other crisis crossovers, Squirrel Girl comics are basically a standalone series outside of main Marvel continuity.

Deadpool however....he is industry joke that people take way too seriously.

*mic drop*

[Charles Scholz]

thejeff wrote:

Thor without the hammer is a somewhat different story. A lot of those "cosmic powers" are tied up in it as is the flight and much of the lightning.

Here are the power Mjolnir has according to Wikipedia:

Spoiler:

"As one of the most formidable weapons known to man or god, it is described as impacting with sufficient force to "level mountains," with primarily adamantium and vibranium proving too impervious. Other offensive capabilities include creating vortices and forcefields (capable of containing an explosion that could potentially destroy a galaxy); emitting mystical blasts of energy; controlling electromagnetism; molecular manipulation; and generating the Geo-Blast (an energy wave that taps a planet's gravitational force), Anti-Force (energy created to counter-act another force), the thermo-blast which can even challenge such beings as Ego the living planet, and God Blast (a blast that taps into Thor's life force). The hammer can travel through planets to return to Thor. It can even create antimatter particles and whirling it round can create winds powerful enough to lift the Taj Mahal. The hammer can also move extremely heavy objects, including the Washington Monument.

There are also other several rarely used abilities. Mjolnir can track a person and mystical items; absorb energy, such as draining the Asgardian powers of the Wrecking Crew into the Wrecker; or detect illusions, as Thor once commanded the hammer to strike the demonic Mephisto, who was hiding amongst false images of himself. As a former religious relic, Mjolnir is lethal to the undead, causing creatures such as vampires to burst into flame and crumble to dust. Mjolnir also can project images, as Thor shows a glimpse of Asgard to fellow Avenger Iron Man. It is near-indestructible, surviving bullets, Anti-matter, and the Melter's melting beam.

The hammer has two properties relating to movement. When it is deliberately thrown by Thor, it will return to his hand despite any intervening obstacles or distance, even traveling through planets to return to Thor. When it has been dropped or set aside, it takes a fixed position, from which it cannot be moved except by a 'worthy' individual.

The hammer has also drained energy from the radioactive supervillain called the Presence, who is forced to surrender before being killed. Mjolnir was able to absorb, contain, and direct the energy of a Null Bomb, which was powerful enough to destroy an entire galaxy. Mjolnir also causes a side effect when used against the hero Union Jack: when Thor erroneously attacks the hero with a blast of lightning and then cancels the offensive, Union Jack is accidentally endowed with the ability to generate electricity. The hammer has been used to both power an Atlantean warship and temporarily drain the forcefield of the villain Juggernaut. If someone swears on the hammer their spirit can be summoned up after death. As well as absorbing radiation, the hammer can repel it back.

The hammer's ability to transform its user also purges the user of any toxins or radiations in their systems; however, this works against its current wielder, Jane Foster, as she is currently suffering from cancer, with the result that her transformations purge her of the radiation used in her chemotherapy while leaving the cancerous cells alone.

But Mjolnir is also not indestructible, having been damaged several times: a force beam from the Asgardian Destroyer slices it in two; the Molecule Man dispels the atomic bonds between the hammer's molecules, vaporizing Mjolnir; the hammer shatters after channeling an unmeasurable amount of energy at the Celestial Exitar; Dark god Perrikus slices Mjolnir in half with a magical scythe; and the hammer is shattered when it collides with the uru weapons of Loki's Storm Giant followers, resulting in an atomic-scale explosion."

[Thomas Seitz]

Charles,

Don't forget also he broke Mjolnir on Grandpa Bors face. ;)

[baron arem heshvaun]

The Revengers {tm}

[Thomas Seitz]

I laughed at that. :) Especially since I've seen different versions of the Revengers. :)

[Mark Thomas 66]

How does Hulk end up with a bad ass fade?

[Vidmaster7]

Barber knows better then to mess up?

[Mark Thomas 66]

Mark Thomas 66 wrote:

The Hulkbuster armor was more like the "Occupy Hulk for ten minutes" armor.

So apparently Hulbuster Armor is the Lamborghini of the billionaire Genius set

Can't wait for Reid Richards to bust out his.

[Rysky]

Mark Thomas 66 wrote:

Mark Thomas 66 wrote:

The Hulkbuster armor was more like the "Occupy Hulk for ten minutes" armor.

So apparently Hulbuster Armor is the Lamborghini of the billionaire Genius set

Can't wait for Reid Richards to bust out his.

Dat kitty face XD