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You know how to balance a polearm perfectly, striking with artful, yet deadly precision.
Prerequisite(s): Weapon Focus (glaive), must be a worshiper of the associated deity.
Benefit(s): You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a glaive sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike).
As a move action, you can shorten your grip on the glaive, treating it as though it lacked the reach weapon property. You can adjust your grip to grant the weapon the reach property as a move action.
I wonder why this was disallowed for PFS but allowed into the book. If it was a power issue then it seems like it should have just not made it to print. If it isn't then I'm not sure why it was ban hammered.
Regardless of the reason I would love the opportunity to use it. I have a very concept rich setting specific character I would love to play that would use it as I am sure others do. It hits right at the heart of Shelynites and seems like exactly the kind of thing you would want to have available to accomplish the types of followers Shelyn would have.
From a Designer standpoint I know some of the people who worked on the book that this is in: Paths of the Righteous. I'm sure they didn't intend to create options for them to not be usable. I see that there is a section in the Additional Resources stating, "Several options in this book are being withheld to appear on Chronicle sheets." Without giving spoilers if it is better to just tell me to shut up and wait to play some newer scenarios and I might get what I would like then I'm all ears.
Otherwise... can we please have this cookie? The underpowered martials want to have nice things. :)
Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane
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Yah, I can see a bunch of worshippers of Shelyn showing up as soon as that Feat is allowed...it's pretty damned awesome, despite the pre-reqs. The real question would have to be why was this actually released?
It's allowing something that you can only otherwise get through one specific fighter archetype (polearm master), PLUS adds a weapon to Finesse, PLUS allows you to use a normally two-handed weapon in one hand. That's pretty good value for one feat!
Contributor
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Technically, the Shield Brace feat already poached the polearm fighter's formerly-exclusive trick. (Outside of PFS, it even allows you to still get the full benefits of wielding the weapon two-handed.)
Potential interactions with the magus's spell combat may have also been a factor in Bladed Brush getting disallowed - I've seen a number of arguments for the feat allowing use of the glaive during spell combat.
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I think the feat does too much for the requiring too little. Dex to damage is a huge advantage. That is one big feature. Now you have a one handed reach weapon. Yes there is the whip but it is exotic,has issues hurting people in armor and it provokes. You can adjust the reach which is a nice feature which I feel is a lone worth the feat. Lastly allows you to do piercing damage. Minor but an extra feature.
So now you have four benefits each one possibly worth 1 feat alone wrapped into the cost of one. I would be annoyed if this got allowed.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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On the one hand it's a very complex feat. Look at the long discussions about spell combat and slashing grace [and most of those discussions concluded that you could NOT use slashing grace, only precise strike].
On the other hand it's wicked powerful. It lets a swashbuckler with about Strength 14 get 1.5x strength to damage, 3x power attack to damage, and still rely on Dex as to-hit stat so your defense doesn't tank. (Because the weapon is 2H for everything except a handful of abilities that specifically require 1H. Thus, it continues to deal damage as a 2H weapon.)
And then there's the Daring Champion cavalier archetype that does all that and add Challenge.
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On the one hand it's a very complex feat. Look at the long discussions about spell combat and slashing grace [and most of those discussions concluded that you could NOT use slashing grace, only precise strike].
On the other hand it's wicked powerful. It lets a swashbuckler with about Strength 14 get 1.5x strength to damage, 3x power attack to damage, and still rely on Dex as to-hit stat so your defense doesn't tank. (Because the weapon is 2H for everything except a handful of abilities that specifically require 1H. Thus, it continues to deal damage as a 2H weapon.)
And then there's the Daring Champion cavalier archetype that does all that and add Challenge.
And the new Order of the Hero plays off of Daring Champion very nicely.
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Doubtful. Whining just leads to badfeels. Giving a nice little argument stating why this feat fits the themes of the game, is not overpowered, etc. will be much more receptive. Jiggy did this some time ago and succeeded in getting Magical Knack into PFS
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Just to clarify, this feat doesn't provide dex to damage. But it does allow class features that give dex to damage to work with it.
The statements some people made seemed to imply they thought the feat gave dex to damage, rather than simply working with abilities that did so.
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Well, honestly, IMO if it is too powerful then it just shouldn't be printed at all. That doesn't make it a good reason to not make it into PFS. If it is a balance issue then something else should have been added to balance the feat. They could have added more skill or feat requirements or split it into two feats. But they stabbed themselves in the foot if it was a power issue during editing.
Kalindlara could be right about wanting to avoid Magus arguments. I could see that. But, outside of that I'm not sure why it was banned. As far as flavor goes, well... I don't know if a more flavorful feat exists for Shelynites.
Unfortunately for the players that means that regardless if it was banned for balance reasons or not that we get a carrot on a stick that we can never reach. That is why I'm trying to make our voice heard. Apparently I am either failing or alone in the wish to have this made PFS compatible though as I didn't get a single like.
By the way, the whining bit was a joke. Well, kinda. When people come to the boards and ask for things to be changed it is tantamount to whining. Calling it anything else is really just a euphemism. I'm not deluding myself. When I know I am basically just complaining about something I am as honest with myself as I am with my intended audience. Still, if you prefer "petitioning" I did mention that in my opening post.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Interesting, how some rather powerful options turned out to be very attractive to players in general.
The virtuous bravo paladin would also be my choice to get into devoted muse (with a two level dip into another class to be able to combine artistic flourish with a full attack) and while a katana might just be the better weapon for this build.... I really want my 4th Shelyn worshipping character to use a glaive as her main weapon.
I partly blame the excellent artwork the archetype go for this.
Regarding the mechanical side of the blade brush issue... Lau mentioned a couple of points that increase the damage output of certain build by way too much.
Personally, I would prefer that John writes a scenario about the region where the archetype comes from (ideally with an NPC with that archetype so we can get another picture of it) that gives access to the feat.
Of course, that should come with some sort of campaign clarification that reduces the power level of this feat. I think that the language is pretty clear but a clarification that excludes spell combat seems like a good idea. Reducing the effect of power attack and similar feats might also be a good option....
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Just to clarify, this feat doesn't provide dex to damage. But it does allow class features that give dex to damage to work with it.
The statements some people made seemed to imply they thought the feat gave dex to damage, rather than simply working with abilities that did so.
I was confused as to why so many people were talking about Dex to damage. Hopefully it wasn't denied because OPC thought it did something it didn't.
For the price of 2 feats (WF Glaive and Bladed Brush) and 1 RP decision (Shelyn is your deity) you get:
1. The option to use a glaive with a 3rd feat (Weapon Finesse).
2. The option to use a glaive with Swashbuckler deeds (and Duelist class).
3. The option to perform a better non-reach attack with a glaive than the weapon trick "Haft Bash."
The feat does NOT:
Provide DEX to damage.
Let the glaive qualify for Slashing Grace.
The URogue CAN (maybe--depends on how you read "weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse", only intrinsically or does the feat open it up):
Be a human or half-elf and take WF Glaive and Weapon Proficiency Glaive (or MC something with martial proficiencies) at 1st level, Bladed Brush at 3rd, and get DEX to damage on a glaive.
Now, Weapon Trick is a feat by itself, and the non-reach attack takes a -2 penalty. But it also gives you a lot more tricks than Haft Bash and isn't restricted to the glaive (an inferior pole-arm).
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Yeah, URogue is the only one potentially that you could get dex to damage with the glaive while using Bladed Brush.
And since the Elven Branched Spear already exists as a weapon that you could use with the URogue's dex to damage ability, I wouldn't have much trouble ruling in favor of allow the glaive to qualify if you pickup bladed brush.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Yah, I can see a bunch of worshippers of Shelyn showing up as soon as that Feat is allowed...it's pretty damned awesome, despite the pre-reqs. The real question would have to be why was this actually released?
Which would be a great explanation except that additional resources also featured something so much more absurd than than Bladed Brush that actually made it through. Even nerfed its the equivalent of three feats.
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While I agree that it is a powerful option when combined with other feats/abilities so too are many other feats and combinations (like finessing and power attacking with an elven curve blade) that are already allowed. I know I'm beating a dead horse with my viewpoint here but if it was too powerful then it shouldn't have made it to print at all. Allowing it to be printed and disallowing it from use (especially with the tasty art that you mentioned) is cruelly presenting a carot on a stick. Especially for something so thematic.
As far as power is concerned, I do not think it is overly powerful. It is funny how many people (even people in this very thread) have expressed that a Dex to damage based build is strong here, yet many of these same people would argue in other threads that Dex to damage builds are weak by comparison to Str focused builds.
And, as Claxon pointed out, the feat does not even give Dex to damage. It allows for you to take a Dex to damage feat. An opportunity that you only get after worshipping only a specific deity, spending the feat tax on Weapon Focus to take Bladed Brush in the first place, picking up Weapon Finesse (either as a class ability or the feat itself) and then, finally, taking Slashing Grace. So, the argument being made is that getting Dex to damage on a Glaive (not just any polearm, only the Glaive) is too powerful for the expenditure of 3 feats and the worship of only a single deity?
I deny this claim and I think if anyone actually thinks about it they would too. If it were such a problem then why isn't it an issue for the Elven Curve Blade? You can already do it with that weapon for only a 2 feat investment and it has the same damage as a Glaive (wider threat range, lower crit multiplier, so better). Spending another feat and requiring the worship of a specific deity seems like a fine balance to allow the same thing with a specific reach weapon. No one complains about this with the Elven Curve Blade. In fact, most people say that it is underpowered compared to Str based options.
In fact, to me this seems to all be part of a subplot to nerf Dex based martials. It happened with all (most) of the X Grace feats. Dex Magus got nerfed into oblivion. It makes me wonder why Paizo keeps printing Dex based options if they think it is too powerful. This is also confusing when contrasted with the advice board's collective majority opinion that Dex to Damage builds are weaker than their Str based counterparts. It is really bizarre to me. I would kind of like to lock some Paizo devs into a room with some of the optimizers from these boards so they can hash out what is "too powerful". No offense to either party intended.
I do agree with Sebastian on a couple of points though. It would be a fairly powerful option for the Magus. I mean, we can't let them have Dex to damage, right? (partial sarcasm) So fine. If this is something that had been planned to be included on chronicle sheets perhaps release it with a Magus caveat. But don't reduce the power attack ratio unless you do the same thing for the Elven Curve Blade. It would be an internally mechanically dishonest move.
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Oh... Slashing Grace isn't even compatible with Bladed Brush? Hm. I'm going to have to disagree with that. I mean with a pedantic reading I can see where someone could claim that because Slashing Grace specifically says "Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon..." rather than "Choose one kind of weapon that can be wielded as a light or one-handed slashing weapon..." that it isn't usable. But if we want to fight pedantics with pedantics then a small sized Glaive is one handed to a Medium character and technically it would still give reach. Is it ridiculous? Yes. But no more ridiculous than that reading of Slashing Grace. Especially when Bladed Brush says, "When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike)."
As long as you have Bladed Brush before you take Slashing Grace I do not see the issue as it counts as a one handed slashing weapon for all feats. How is that unclear? It says "all". Not "all except Slashing Grace".
Hell. For that matter even Agile would work too.
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As long as you have Bladed Brush before you take Slashing Grace I do not see the issue as it counts as a one handed slashing weapon for all feats. How is that unclear? It says "all". Not "all except Slashing Grace".
Hell. For that matter even Agile would work too.
Lune, those are certainly valid arguments to make. However if those arguments are accepted as true that makes it less likely for the feat to become PFS legal. (As it allows very powerful combinations.)
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On your confusion to why things get published by Paizo that PFS excludes:
They are two different entities with two different purposes.
What is published may be good for a home game but not an organized living campaign.
The argument for the feat is fine on the mechanical discussion alone. Let's not drag it off into insulting the people who make our game.
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Kevin Willis: I disagree. See my previous post regarding the Elven Curve Blade comparison. The optimization community at large does not consider Dex to Damage builds to be powerful builds (with the noted exception of Gunslinger and for good reason). I am also not convinced that the Paizo devs believe this.
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Silly Lune... PFS players can't have nice things! It would upset the balance of the universe... or something.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Kevin Willis: I disagree. See my previous post regarding the Elven Curve Blade comparison. The optimization community at large does not consider Dex to Damage builds to be powerful builds (with the noted exception of Gunslinger and for good reason). I am also not convinced that the Paizo devs believe this.
That's because I don't think it's true. Pretty much every single dexyerity to damage build I can think is better than the Gunslinger by default.
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Kevin Willis: I disagree. See my previous post regarding the Elven Curve Blade comparison. The optimization community at large does not consider Dex to Damage builds to be powerful builds (with the noted exception of Gunslinger and for good reason). I am also not convinced that the Paizo devs believe this.
This whole discussion assumes the feat isn't one of the reserved options, but...
The curve blade isn't reach (and requires enough GP and enough fame to buy a +1 agile curve blade). With the feat, the glaive is reach AND close. That's not a trivial thing.
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Blake's Tiger: Technically it is reach OR close. It isn't both at the same time. It takes a move action to switch your grip.
Also, again, you are applying a Dex to damage argument to a feat that doesn't grant that. Slashing Grace (or Agile) does. I would say that if you have a problem with that then you should take it up with Slashing Grace. But I wish you wouldn't. Dex to Damage builds have already taken several heavy hits from the nerf bat. And it already wasn't a strong option, just a different one.
...its almost like they lined up the nerfing of Dex to Damage with the release of URogue, but I'm sure that is just WILD speculation. ;)
Ragoz: Heh. Thank you for that.
edit: Also, I do very much hope that Bladed Brush is at least one of the reserved options. I mean... I think it is already pretty reserved what with the feat taxes and deity requirement. But if it isn't then I would just like to ask for it to be allowed.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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I'm currently averaging ~110 damage at level 8 with my bow if I'm not sneak attacking on one character. I have no idea what someone would have to do to make this feat competitive with archery. Apparently that is the only dexterity style the gods intended though.
Archery isn't really a dexterity style though and with the right class you are better off without it.
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I'm currently averaging ~110 damage at level 8 with my bow if I'm not sneak attacking on one character. I have no idea what someone would have to do to make this feat competitive with archery. Apparently that is the only dexterity style the gods intended though.Archery isn't really a dexterity style though and with the right class you are better off without it.
Both this feat and archery use str for damage and dex to hit (or at least allows you to which would be the point). It sounds like a fair comparison to me.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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@Lune: at the risk of beating a horse that was already beaten to death in several threads, here is the breakdown of why Bladed Brush doesn't allow Slashing Grace, even though it very much makes you think that at first glance:
Benefit: You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a glaive sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike).
You can treat it as "a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand", for feats and class abilities that require that.
Now let's compare Slashing Grace to Precise Strike:
When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike), and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size. You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.
Precise Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not a natural weapon), adding her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her off hand or use a shield other than a buckler.
So Bladed Brush matches Precise Strike exactly: treat the other hand as not attacking. Slashing Grace has a much bigger requirement: the off-hand must be unoccupied, meaning empty.
But while using Bladed Brush, you're still holding the glaive in two hands, because you're only considered one-handed for abilities that specifically require one-handedness. So for everything else (like getting 1.5x strength to damage and +3 damage from power attack) you're still using it in two hands.
So Bladed Brush doesn't satisfy Slashing Grace's much stricter requirement.
Compare: you could use Precise Strike while holding a torch in your other hand, but you couldn't do that with Slashing Grace.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Lau just saved me from having to make that exact argument, which also works to explain why spell combat does not work.
Oh and an agile elven curve blade will do less damage than an unchained rogue's dex to damage option.
Of course, dex to damage might not be the issue, the feat is already really strong with a strength based build. A strength based swashbuckler, or more likely daring champion will have a significantly increased damage output with the better power attack ratio, more damage from wielding a two-handed weapon, and the damage from precise strike.
It also counts as a one-handed piercing weapon for many swashbuckler class features... which is a very big deal, I am not aware of any option that gives the same benefit to the elven curve blade.
And last but not least, weapon focus is not a bad feat for characters with opportune parry and riposte.
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Which is pretty much the reason why I am hoping for a nerfed version, treating it as a one-handed weapon for power attack purposes might just be enough.
And Lune, you might want to reread your posts... sentences like this one are not helping your case, since it implies that everyone involved with the feat (additional resources task force and John among others) did not think A LOT about that feat.
I deny this claim and I think if anyone actually thinks about it they would too.
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Oh, so there was actually a ruling on this? Or barring that there were threads where miraculously everyone agreed? Or did the original designer weigh in and provide us with their intention?
I doubt any of these but if I am wrong then please point me to the ruling or thread where this happened.
Regardless, I disagree. I pre-apologize if my disagreement gets anyone's panties in a bunch. The feat outright says that you "treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities".
Also, rereading my posts I see nothing wrong with them including the line you quoted. While I am not upset at the designers, editorial staff, campaign support or anyone about the feat I do not think I am in the minority when I say that if it was too powerful then it shouldn't have been printed in the first place. This kind of policy is what helps to prevent power creep. I have never bought into the theory that there are things that are powerful enough for home games but too powerful for organized play. It is either too powerful and shouldn't have been printed as is or it isn't too powerful and should be allowed in organized play. I don't mean that just for Bladed Brush but as a standard across all printed material. (the obvious exceptions being crafting things and things that are out all together in PFS)
Also, you took my quote out of context. The denial that you were quoting was in reference to the feat being too powerful. It had nothing to do and did not reference designers, John or anyone else. It didn't even imply that. I feel like you made that comparison to vilify me. I hope I'm wrong but making something I said into a personal attack when it clearly wasn't seems like an attack on me.
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Also, rereading my posts I see nothing wrong with them including the line you quoted. While I am not upset at the designers, editorial staff, campaign support or anyone about the feat I do not think I am in the minority when I say that if it was too powerful then it shouldn't have been printed in the first place. This kind of policy is what helps to prevent power creep. I have never bought into the theory that there are things that are powerful enough for home games but too powerful for organized play. It is either too powerful and shouldn't have been printed as is or it isn't too powerful and should be allowed in organized play. I don't mean that just for Bladed Brush but as a standard across all printed material. (the obvious exceptions being crafting things and things that are out all together in PFS)
This is decidedly not how games work across a broad spectrum of gaming. That is why organized play in CCGs have banned lists and why tabletop organized plays have guidelines. Fact is that things like mythic is awesome for some games, but in general that type of power would be game breaking for PFS. Also there is Campaign Mode for almost all the APs and Modules, which your GM can allow you to use Bladed Brush or banned races, and it is nice to have that option. I think everyone is sad when something they hoped for (Qadiran Saddle) does not make the legal options list, but usually you know when something is just too good.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Oh, so there was actually a ruling on this? Or barring that there were threads where miraculously everyone agreed? Or did the original designer weigh in and provide us with their intention?
I doubt any of these but if I am wrong then please point me to the ruling or thread where this happened.
Regardless, I disagree. I pre-apologize if my disagreement gets anyone's panties in a bunch. The feat outright says that you "treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities".
Also, rereading my posts I see nothing wrong with them including the line you quoted. While I am not upset at the designers, editorial staff, campaign support or anyone about the feat I do not think I am in the minority when I say that if it was too powerful then it shouldn't have been printed in the first place. This kind of policy is what helps to prevent power creep. I have never bought into the theory that there are things that are powerful enough for home games but too powerful for organized play. It is either too powerful and shouldn't have been printed as is or it isn't too powerful and should be allowed in organized play. I don't mean that just for Bladed Brush but as a standard across all printed material. (the obvious exceptions being crafting things and things that are out all together in PFS)
Also, you took my quote out of context. The denial that you were quoting was in reference to the feat being too powerful. It had nothing to do and did not reference designers, John or anyone else. It didn't even imply that. I feel like you made that comparison to vilify me. I hope I'm wrong but making something I said into a personal attack when it clearly wasn't seems like an attack on me.
I didn't think that you wanted to insult anyone, just that people could read it like that.
And to make the point again, a slashing grace doesn't even work when you wield a longsword in two hands... and while the feat has language that seems tailor made to allow it to work with precise strike... oh well, as I mentioned Dex to damage might not be the reason why it is not currently legal.
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While I hope that the feat becomes legal, to make so many people happy, it really should come with a campaign clarification to clarify all those questions. Power level is one thing, but I really don't want to rediscuss the issue all the time.
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Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane
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So, the argument being made is that getting Dex to damage on a Glaive (not just any polearm, only the Glaive) is too powerful for the expenditure of 3 feats and the worship of only a single deity?
One level of Unchained Rogue or Swashbuckler, one level of Warpriest...boom, qualified, no actual feats expended yet.
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RSX Raver: That is how it should work for those games as well. The same thing annoyed me in M:TG. If it was too powerful to play with then why did it make it to print in the first place? Either print it and allow it or don't print it at all.
Sebastian Hirsch: Well, thanx for stopping by. You gave it your best to try to talk sense into me but I just wouldn't have it. ;) At least we have the same goal in mind.
Michael Clarke: There are several other ways to qualify for Bladed Brush. Not sure I understand your point being that you still don't get Dex to Damage with your build. Maybe if you added 2 more levels of URogue? Or if you added Slashing Grace? Either way I think you'd at least need one more level in there or an Agile Weapon or something.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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The feat outright says that you "treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities".
You cut off the half of the sentence that disagrees with your position.
When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike).
If you were actually holding it in one hand, it would be redundant to state that your off hand isn't attacking. The feat never says you're only using one hand; it only counts like that for certain specific abilities. For everything else it still counts as 2H because you are still using it in two hands.
However, Slashing Grace isn't one of the abilities that requires an off-hand to be "not attacking"; it requires it to be [i]empty[i].
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No. Not just "certain specific abilities". It counts for "all feats and class abilities". You don't get to cherry pick things it does count as a one-handed peircing or slashing melee weapon for and other things that it does not. It counts for all.
It does count as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purpose of Slashing Grace. It also doesn't count as you having an empty off-hand (you're simply not making attacks), so you're not going to be able to use Slashing Grace for dex-to-damage, as it specifies that you must have an empty off-hand.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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No. Not just "certain specific abilities". It counts for "all feats and class abilities". You don't get to cherry pick things it does count as a one-handed peircing or slashing melee weapon for and other things that it does not. It counts for all.
Bladed Brush doesn't make your off-hand count as empty, and Slashing Grace requires that.