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Does Holy Water stop the regeneration of a monster ability?
Regeneration 10: good weapons and good spells
I know Bless water is used to create holy water which has the good description, but does that include it?
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RAW I think not. Summoning celestial woodchucks is a [good] spell, but their natural attacks are not good aligned, holy water and celestial woodchucks are the products of a [good] spell, not the spell.
At my table it would probably work however.
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Depends on how many HD those Celestial Woodchucks have, if enough to qualify for DR/Evil, then yesRAW I think not. Summoning celestial woodchucks is a [good] spell, but their natural attacks are not good aligned, holy water and celestial woodchucks are the products of a [good] spell, not the spell.
At my table it would probably work however.
If you are saying that having DR/evil gives you the ability to pierce any sort of DR... then that idea is incorrect.
Having an ["any alignment"] subtype allows you to pierce DR/"that alignment". Eg. a creature with the subtype [evil] can pierce DR/evil.
Having DR/magic allows you to pierce DR/magic.
Having DR/epic allows you to pierce DR/epic.
Remember that all three of these only apply for the purpose of piercing DR.
Also remember...
"Incorporeal Creatures and "Counts as Magic": Say I have an attack that counts as magical for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction, such as from the monk's ki pool (magic). Does that mean I can't harm an incorporeal creature at all, since the attack doesn't count as magical for that purpose?
Such attacks should also be able to harm incorporeal creatures as if the attack was magic. This will be reflected in future errata."
But that is as far as that goes.
There is nothing about the celestial template that grants any form of DR piercing.
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What if the celestial woodchuck does a Smite? Would the Smite count as a Good attack.
Barring a few VERY fringe creatures, throwing normal water doesn't hurt anything. Holy Water damage is a special magical, and arguably Good effect.
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What if the celestial woodchuck does a Smite? Would the Smite count as a Good attack.
Barring a few VERY fringe creatures, throwing normal water doesn't hurt anything. Holy Water damage is a special magical, and arguably Good effect.
Celestial creatures do not smite as a paladin, who get extra benefit from their smite.
Notice in the text that it does not grant DR piercing at all. Nor does the attack count as good.
"Special Attacks The creature may smite evil 1/day as a swift action (it adds its Cha bonus to attack rolls, and a damage bonus equal to its HD against evil foes; smite persists until the target is dead or the celestial creature rests)."
And the only argument for holy water being a good effect that I can think of is that it probably should be a good effect... but it definitely is not one.
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Um, Holy Water does sayNeither positive or negative energy are aligned. As holy water only utilizes positive energy, by RAW, it does not stop regeneration 10: good.
They probably should be aligned in Pathfinder due to certain design decisions. But this is what we currently have.
Holy water damages undead creatures and evil outsiders almost as if it were acid.
And bless water is a [Good] aligned spell, so you're utilizing both positive and Good aligned energy.
Um, Holy Water does sayNeither positive or negative energy are aligned. As holy water only utilizes positive energy, by RAW, it does not stop regeneration 10: good.
They probably should be aligned in Pathfinder due to certain design decisions. But this is what we currently have.Holy water damages undead creatures and evil outsiders almost as if it were acid.And bless water is a [Good] aligned spell, so you're utilizing both positive and Good aligned energy.
And Summon Monster, when summoning a celestial badger, also has the [Good] tag. That doesn't mean said badger overcomes damage reduction as if it had the [Good] subtype.
The spell isn't what is doing the damage, so the fact it has the [Good] descriptor means nothing.
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Um, Holy Water does sayNeither positive or negative energy are aligned. As holy water only utilizes positive energy, by RAW, it does not stop regeneration 10: good.
They probably should be aligned in Pathfinder due to certain design decisions. But this is what we currently have.Holy water damages undead creatures and evil outsiders almost as if it were acid.And bless water is a [Good] aligned spell, so you're utilizing both positive and Good aligned energy.And Summon Monster, when summoning a celestial badger, also has the [Good] tag. That doesn't mean said badger overcomes damage reduction as if it had the [Good] subtype.
The spell isn't what is doing the damage, so the fact it has the [Good] descriptor means nothing.
I responding to the claim that holy water only utilizes positive energy and not [Good] energy.
By RAW though I do agree that HW wouldn't short out regeneration, but it makes for a nice house rule.
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Um, Holy Water does sayNeither positive or negative energy are aligned. As holy water only utilizes positive energy, by RAW, it does not stop regeneration 10: good.
They probably should be aligned in Pathfinder due to certain design decisions. But this is what we currently have.Holy water damages undead creatures and evil outsiders almost as if it were acid.And bless water is a [Good] aligned spell, so you're utilizing both positive and Good aligned energy.And Summon Monster, when summoning a celestial badger, also has the [Good] tag. That doesn't mean said badger overcomes damage reduction as if it had the [Good] subtype.
The spell isn't what is doing the damage, so the fact it has the [Good] descriptor means nothing.
I responding to the claim that holy water only utilizes positive energy and not [Good] energy.
By RAW though I do agree that HW wouldn't short out regeneration, but it makes for a nice house rule.
And yet bless water says it does this... "This transmutation imbues a flask (1 pint) of water with positive energy, turning it into holy water."
I see nothing good being imbued into the water. Just positive energy. Which, by the way, can be used to harm evil outsiders with the right options taken.Do you have some text that directly goes against this? Because I've looked pretty hard at holy water and I've never seen a single line that indicates that its damage is aligned.
Purely from the text in the game there is nothing inherently good about holy water. Bless water has the [good] tag. But the water does not.
Again, I'll say that it probably should be [good]. But should does not equal does in Pathfinder.
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Purely from the text in the game there is nothing inherently good about holy water....
This is so blatantly incorrect there is no point even debating further.
Remember, please, that this question is in the Rules Questions area.
No, blatantly incorrect would be if I said that the Corrosive weapon enhancement did fire damage.
It's blatant, you see, because it is clearly, undeniably 100% against what is written in the Corrosive ability. Because the text says it does acid damage.
It is not blatantly wrong to say that an ability that never says it does good damage or utilizes good energy is not good.
I notice your lack of text backing up your idea that is, apparently, so certain that to say the opposite is blatantly wrong. That is probably because there is not a single line in the game that says that holy water uses good energy. There is, though, a line that states it is water infused with positive energy.
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would the holy water then do acid damage and bypass the outsiders dr any way but then get blocked by acid resist/immunity?Um, Holy Water does sayNeither positive or negative energy are aligned. As holy water only utilizes positive energy, by RAW, it does not stop regeneration 10: good.
They probably should be aligned in Pathfinder due to certain design decisions. But this is what we currently have.Holy water damages undead creatures and evil outsiders almost as if it were acid.And bless water is a [Good] aligned spell, so you're utilizing both positive and Good aligned energy.
The effect comes from positive energy. So, I would say that the effect would only be blocked by positive energy blocking effects.
But the holy water definition itself does not state what type of damage it does, other than to say it causes harm similar to acid. But similar too isn't the same as being.
So, I think this one may just be up to the GM.
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I notice your lack of text backing up your idea that is, apparently, so certain that to say the opposite is blatantly wrong. That is probably because there is not a single line in the game that says that holy water uses good energy.
Source PRG:CRB
Holy water damages undead creatures and evil outsiders almost as if it were acid. A flask of holy water can be thrown as a splash weapon.Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet. A flask breaks if thrown against the body of a corporeal creature, but to use it against an incorporeal creature, you must open the flask and pour the holy water out onto the target. Thus, you can douse an incorporeal creature with holy water only if you are adjacent to it. Doing so is a ranged touch attack that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
A direct hit by a flask of holy water deals 2d4 points of damage to an undead creature or an evil outsider. Each such creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of damage from the splash.
Temples to good deities sell holy water at cost (making no profit). Holy water is made using the bless water spell.
School transmutation [good]; Level cleric/oracle 1, inquisitor 1, paladin 1; Subdomain divine 2
CASTING
Casting Time 1 minute
Components V, S, M (5 pounds of powdered silver worth 25 gp)EFFECT
Range touch
Target flask of water touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will negates (object); Spell Resistance yes (object)DESCRIPTION
This transmutation imbues a flask (1 pint) of water with positive energy, turning it into holy water.
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@Rysky
Bless Water is an instantaneous effect. It ends the moment the Holy Water comes into existence. And the spells tags have no bearing on the object it creates. This is no different than how any other spell with a tag functions. On the other hand, the text in the spell says exactly what the spell does... which is to imbue positive energy into water. Not good energy. Positive energy.
A good wizard who summons a celestial dog is casting a good spell too... does the dog have the good subtype too? Can it bypass DR/good? Is its attacks imbued with good energy?
The simple answer to all these questions is no. Since that is not how spells work without written words contrary in the spell.
Using positive energy to damage evil outsiders does not mean it is good energy. There are ways in game to achieve that beyond holy water which are also not [good]. If it were good energy... it would directly say that it was good. Much like the Holy weapon enhancement.
" This power makes the weapon good-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction."
Notice the distinct lack of a similar line in holy water?
Again, this is the rules section. Going to need something more solid here.
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*shrugs*
Holy Water is made up/with [Good] energy and positive energy, not just positive energy. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to hurt Evil Outsiders with it.
And using Holy Water to damage Evil Outsiders doesn't mean Positive Energy hurts Evil Outsiders by itself.
A Paladin's Smite Evil also doesn't have that line that the Holy weapon enchant does either.
Note that I haven't actually claimed that Holy Water would shut down Regeneration overcame by Good Damage outside of allowing it as a house rule (That I acknowledge as a house rule)
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*shrugs*
Holy Water is made up/with [Good] energy and positive energy, not just positive energy. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to hurt Evil Outsiders with it.
And using Holy Water to damage Evil Outsiders doesn't mean Positive Energy hurts Evil Outsiders by itself.
A Paladin's Smite Evil also doesn't have that line that the Holy weapon enchant does either.
Note that I haven't actually claimed that Holy Water would shut down Regeneration overcame by Good Damage outside of allowing it as a house rule (That I acknowledge as a house rule)
Then you hold a paradoxical view. Because if holy water is good energy then it would stop regen(good). By the mere fact that it is good-aligned. If it is not good then it does not stop regen(good). It is quite binary.
And, again, you are incorrect about requiring good energy to harm evil outsiders. Bless Water acts like Alignment Channel set for harm evil and the regular positive channel to harm undead at the same time. Neither form of channel, a usage of positive energy, are good energy. You are reaching a faulty conclusion based on... I'm not even sure what. Positive energy harming evil outsiders does not equal good energy. It is something that can be easily achieved without good energy. Where do you pull the idea that the energy must be good to harm evil outsiders from?
Also... I don't understand your reference to a paladin's smite. Smite isn't good aligned. It also isn't an effect on the paladin's weapon. It's an effect on the paladin. Which allows the paladin's attacks to..."Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess." Which would also not stop regen(good). But it does allow the paladin to pierce all DR. Could you explain your intended point?
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I agree on the "fluff" part that holy water could stop regeneration.
however, from a technical sid:
* seeing how difficult it is to get [good] on a weapon (via spells or effects) and the fact that it cost a +1 equivalent (that will not be useful vs lots of other enemies)
* and the fact the regen Good is limited to powerful beings,
I'd disallow the holy water, a mere 25 GP item, accessible everywhere, to affect such powerful beings.
it's not like it can or cannot do damage, it is the fact that it can KILL the opponent or not.
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Alignment Channel doesn't use Positive or Negative Energy.
Correct, Smite, despite running on Good, doesn't deal [Good] aligned damage and wouldn't stop Regeneration (Good), the same as Holy Water.
Both are powered by Good, but neither deal [Good] aligned damage.
So, then, your position is that Channel Energy does not use positive or negative energy when used for Alignment Channel?
"Instead of its normal effect, you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype."It is still a usage of channel energy. Explicitly.
You would have an argument if this usage cost one of your daily usages(but even then it only becomes maybe) instead of still being the user channeling energy.
With smite... Just because it comes from the forces of good does not equate it to good energy. Any spell a cleric of a good god casts comes from the forces of good. It does not make that spell inherently more good nor does it mean it uses good energy. You are adding things to the text that are not necessitated.
So, I agree that bless water is a [good] spell. But I disagree that there is any [good] energy in holy water. Simply because nothing says that there is. Only positive energy. Which can be used to perform the acts that holy water does in other instances in the rules.
Pathfinder just does not use the logic you are using to reach your conclusion.
And at this point I think we have reached an impasse. You say one thing, I say another and I think we most likely have exhausted all the available evidence. Shall we call it agree to disagree?
Does Holy Water stop the regeneration of a monster ability?
Regeneration 10: good weapons and good spells
Since everyone is here discussing it, I'd ask another question: Would being within the radius of a Magic Circle against Evil stop the regeneration?
@Dragios: I 100% agree with your game ruling. I only ask for posterity.
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Thats my thinking on it, yes.So, then, your position is that Channel Energy does not use positive or negative energy when used for Alignment Channel?Alignment Channel doesn't use Positive or Negative Energy.
Correct, Smite, despite running on Good, doesn't deal [Good] aligned damage and wouldn't stop Regeneration (Good), the same as Holy Water.
Both are powered by Good, but neither deal [Good] aligned damage.
Yes, Channel Energy. Channel Aligned Energy. Not Channel Positive. Not Channel Negative. Channel Aligned Energy to heal/harm. Say you pick Evil and Channel to heal Evil outsiders, and you have a Pit Fiend and a Nightwalker. It would help both. It wouldn't ignore the Nightwalker because you're not using Positive energy."Instead of its normal effect, you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype."
It is still a usage of channel energy. Explicitly.
You would have an argument if this usage cost one of your daily usages(but even then it only becomes maybe) instead of still being the user channeling energy.
With smite... Just because it comes from the forces of good does not equate it to good energy.If it is made with/from a [Good] source or it calls out calling on the powers of Good the yeah, it kinda does.
Any spell a cleric of a good god casts comes from the forces of good.Their deity gives them the ability to cast spells, not the same as actually casting a [Good] spell or using Smite Evil.
It does not make that spell inherently more goodCorrect.
nor does it mean it uses good energy.It does if it has a [Good] tag.
You are adding things to the text that are not necessitated.
Not really. Bless Water uses good and positive energy.
Holy Water uses good and Postive energy.
Smite Evil uses good energy.
So, I agree that bless water is a [good] spell. But I disagree that there is any [good] energy in holy water. Simply because nothing says that there is. Only positive energy.The [Good] tag on Bless Water refutes this. The fact that it hurts Fiends refutes this.
Which can be used to perform the acts that holy water does in other instances in the rules.
If there's nothing good in Holy Water then don't you think Evil Clerics would be able to make it?
Pathfinder just does not use the logic you are using to reach your conclusion.
Actually it does.
Holy Water = Good
Unholy Water = Evil
Does Holy Water stop the regeneration of a monster ability?
Regeneration 10: good weapons and good spells
Since everyone is here discussing it, I'd ask another question: Would being within the radius of a Magic Circle against Evil stop the regeneration?
@Dragios: I 100% agree with your game ruling. I only ask for the good of posterity.
Absolutely not. It's not a damaging effect, just a barrier.
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Does Holy Water stop the regeneration of a monster ability?
Regeneration 10: good weapons and good spells
Since everyone is here discussing it, I'd ask another question: Would being within the radius of a Magic Circle against Evil stop the regeneration?
@Dragios: I 100% agree with your game ruling. I only ask for the good of posterity.
Only damage stops regen. As MCAE does not do any damage it would not stop regeneration.
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Absolutely not. It's not a damaging effect, just a barrier.Does Holy Water stop the regeneration of a monster ability?
Regeneration 10: good weapons and good spells
Since everyone is here discussing it, I'd ask another question: Would being within the radius of a Magic Circle against Evil stop the regeneration?
@Dragios: I 100% agree with your game ruling. I only ask for the good of posterity.
Actually I think there are a handful of monsters that have their Regeneration shut down by things that aren't straight damage so it could be possible (depending on the wording) for having Aligned spells cast on them in order to turn it off.
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Also... I don't understand your reference to a paladin's smite. Smite isn't good aligned. It also isn't an effect on the paladin's weapon. It's an effect on the paladin. Which allows the paladin's attacks to..."Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess." Which would also not stop regen(good). But it does allow the paladin to pierce all DR. Could you explain your intended point?
Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil.
So we have holy water and smite evil, both using the power of Good but not being Good-aligned.
Actually I think there are a handful of monsters that have their Regeneration shut down by things that aren't straight damage so it could be possible (depending on the wording) for having Aligned spells cast on them in order to turn it off.Absolutely not. It's not a damaging effect, just a barrier.Does Holy Water stop the regeneration of a monster ability?
Regeneration 10: good weapons and good spells
Since everyone is here discussing it, I'd ask another question: Would being within the radius of a Magic Circle against Evil stop the regeneration?
@Dragios: I 100% agree with your game ruling. I only ask for the good of posterity.
Inapplicable. a Magic Circle is not an effect cast on a creature, but an area barrier.
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Inapplicable. a Magic Circle is not an effect cast on a creature, but an area barrier.Actually I think there are a handful of monsters that have their Regeneration shut down by things that aren't straight damage so it could be possible (depending on the wording) for having Aligned spells cast on them in order to turn it off.Absolutely not. It's not a damaging effect, just a barrier.Does Holy Water stop the regeneration of a monster ability?
Regeneration 10: good weapons and good spells
Since everyone is here discussing it, I'd ask another question: Would being within the radius of a Magic Circle against Evil stop the regeneration?
@Dragios: I 100% agree with your game ruling. I only ask for the good of posterity.
*nods*
An improved/greater magic circle that does that would be really cool though.
Inapplicable. a Magic Circle is not an effect cast on a creature, but an area barrier.In this case I'm referring to the MCAE effect that:
All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell...
So all creatures (even evil enemies) within the radius are effected by the [good] spell (depending on the results of spell resistance and will saves).
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Also... I don't understand your reference to a paladin's smite. Smite isn't good aligned. It also isn't an effect on the paladin's weapon. It's an effect on the paladin. Which allows the paladin's attacks to..."Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess." Which would also not stop regen(good). But it does allow the paladin to pierce all DR. Could you explain your intended point?Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil.So we have holy water and smite evil, both using the power of Good but not being Good-aligned.
This is a re-tred.
You are conflating the two concepts of "from forces of good" and "uses good energy".Any spell a cleric casts is given to them by their god. They receive those spells from their god through prayer, explicitly. A good god does not give only good spells. Nor do they especially apply good energy to those spells.
A god can be good. It does not mean all that they do is imbued with good energy. These are two separate issues. How do you know an effect utilizes good-aligned energy? The effect says that it does.
Heck, if a good god casts a spell them-self it does not even mean that the spell cast utilizes good energy.
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Inapplicable. a Magic Circle is not an effect cast on a creature, but an area barrier.In this case I'm referring to the MCAE effect that:All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell...So all creatures (even evil enemies) within the radius are effected by the [good] spell (depending on the results of spell resistance and will saves).
Yup. Evil creatures can benefit from Protection From Evil. Though, a divine caster who worships an evil deity would generally not be able to cast the spell due to their god not granting [good] spells.
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This is a re-tred.No, it was a clarification.
Only specific items count for overcoming regeneration. In this case, only items that say "Good-Aligned". So despite holy water and paladins being Good, their attacks are not Good-Aligned.
It was a re-tred because nearly the same exact thing was said earlier in the thread. I did not mean it as an offense, merely to inform you that the full idea you put forth had already been discussed.
But, again, holy water is not good. Since no part of holy water is described as good.
To clarify: objects do not have alignments(unless they are intelligent). They can be aligned, though. Either holy water is good aligned or it is not. But it would not have an alignment : good.
A paladin is good, since they must be lawful good. But they are not good-aligned. Those are two separate things which do not always co-exist. For instance, a +1 holy sword is good-aligned. But it is not alignment : good. And smite, while calling out to the powers of good(the forces with the alignment of good), does not necessitate the usage of good-aligned energy. Much as any action of a being with the alignment of good does not have to involve anything good-aligned.
For this conversation we are talking only about good energy, that is, energy that is good-aligned. All references to good as it refers to alignment can be dropped.
Bless Water is a [good] spell, which means this:
"Good: Spells that draw upon the power of true goodness or conjure creatures from good-aligned planes or with the good subtype should have the good descriptor."
Casting Bless Water is a good-aligned action. It somehow interacts with good-aligned planes or good-aligned energy. It uses that energy to perform a task. That task is thus...
"This transmutation imbues a flask (1 pint) of water with positive energy, turning it into holy water."
So the creation of holy water is a good-aligned action. But the water itself is merely positive energy irradiated water. Which is not good-aligned nor has the alignment of good.
I could argue reasonably that Holy Water acts like acid vs Undead (and presumably anything that it specifically affects), and acid stops normal regeneration. Reason will not stand again the basic assumption that nothing counts unless it is specifically written. Institutional processing.
Murdock,
Acts Like is not the same thing as IS.
It means you model the effect after acid. Acid resistance would be irrelevant.
You rather assume that the default GM is only about rules sleazes to mess with the players and make them innefective.
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sadly there isn't a "positive" descriptor for magic. Named descriptors are [acid, air, chaotic, cold, curse, darkness, death, disease, draconic, earth, electricity, emotion, evil, fear, fire, force, good, language-dependent, lawful, light, meditative, mind-affecting, pain, poison, shadow, sonic, and water]. This makes Holy Water do untyped(nondescript? lol) damage.
Holy water isn't a spell and thus spell descriptors have no bearing on it. It is an alchemical weapon created by an instantaneous spell.
Holy water does untyped damage because a type is not given in the item description. Though, given the fact that the creation method describes the item as water with positive energy, it is easy to assume that the damage is a positive energy effect.
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Murdock,
Acts Like is not the same thing as IS.
It means you model the effect after acid. Acid resistance would be irrelevant.You rather assume that the default GM is only about rules sleazes to mess with the players and make them innefective.
I was only saying that if you intend to argue that holy water denies regeneration because it acts like acid, then I'm going to argue that acid resistance applies against holy water.
I don't think either point is true to the RAW. My point is that if you escalate the use of something beyond it's written applications, expect consequences. If you want holy water to function as acid, it will function with the same limitations as acid.