I've got a druid player asking if he can use his Wild Shape to turn into an animal which has had the Dire Template applied to it. As I recall, the general rule is that you can't Wild Shape into templated creatures, but he argues that many valid Wild Shape forms are already at least effectively templated creatures, and that due to Pathfinder's polymorph nerfs, the only bonus he would get from the Dire Template is making a creature a particular size for Wild Shape purposes. What say you, forumites?
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There is no Dire template. A dire wolf is an independant stat block, not a wolf with a template. So wild shape into all the dire animals you wish, they are animals.
The nerfs to wildshape were on purpose because Druids made CoDZilla otherwise.
Also, there is no Dire template (from Paizo) as pointed out, though there is one from 3rd party I wouldn't suggest opening up that can of worms.
In general anyways, the rules is you cannot add templates to creatures for wild shaping.
Doesn't actually matter, Wild Shape gives specifics based on size and small options based on form. Call it "Dire" or call it Large, it gives the same stats. All based on Beast Shape, Elemental Body, etc anyway. Someone could make some insane Druid from Beyond the Beyond and turn into odd alien creatures and still get the same stats and bonuses, and would be up to the GM to figure out the attacks, but easy enough to just re-skin something already available.
Really? Druidzillas seem super powerful now. How were they even more powerful in 3.5? I guess I really never came to an understanding of Natural Attacks when I played 3.5.The nerfs to wildshape were on purpose because Druids made CoDZilla otherwise.
Also, there is no Dire template (from Paizo) as pointed out, though there is one from 3rd party I wouldn't suggest opening up that can of worms.
In general anyways, the rules is you cannot add templates to creatures for wild shaping.
In 3.5 wild shape replaced your stats. It's was the Synthesist Summoner before it existed. Wild shape into something with big str/con which you tanked at character creation. So a character would start with 20 wisdom, and wild shape into creatures with big str scores and lots of natural attacks and go from there. Not to mention the druids could buff themselves and run around in animal form all day it was a basic recipe for broke AF.
It's some thing of a gray area. You couldn't change into a polar bear for half of Pathfinder 's existence because the Bestiary said it was just a normal bear with the Giant template.
Then a later Bestiary printed polar bear stats as it's own stand alone statblock. Suddenly you could polymorph into polar bears.
Except that if you reverse-engineered the new statblock, it was easy to see that it was just a normal bear statblock with the Giant template and a swim speed added on.
So I wouldn't worry too much about your player's request. Saying no without a good reason might engender harsh feelings, but allowing the occasional exception is not going to break your game.
Druids are a bit at the mercy of what appears in the various Bestiaries. For example, saurian shaman get the huge Frog Father, while no similar "Bear Father" or "Lion Father" is available.
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Using the Paizo template I found (Tomb of Horrors)has the following effects:
- Attack dice +1 increment (mild bonus - still not a lot)
- +1 size (no other affect - but changes the wild shape stat block)
- +5 Natural Armor {This is the BIG one}
Dire template finally makes up for the fact that you lose armour and shield when shaping - that's the main impact.
As was pointed out a year ago, the Dire template is 3pp, not from a Paizo source.
Druids are a bit at the mercy of what appears in the various Bestiaries. For example, saurian shaman get the huge Frog Father, while no similar "Bear Father" or "Lion Father" is available.
Frogs are neither reptiles nor Dinosaurs though. Why would the Saurian Shaman (already arguably the stronger animal shaman) be able wild shape into one ?
The point stands though, nitpicking aside (sorry) : that line of archetype is absolutely at the mercy of whatever the bestiaries contain. Boar Shamans grumble. Lions are mostly fine. Others just don't bother much with wild shape or summoning, for lack of options.I'll cover myself by pretending this illustrates another minor issue : not everyone will agree on what animal is admissible for your shaman.
Anyway, not the subject, end tangent.
The Tome of Horrors is a Necromancer/FGG book, not Paizo. It has been used in some older APs, I think, but still.
Plus, most Druids aren't fond of necromancy, be it thread necro.
Druids are a bit at the mercy of what appears in the various Bestiaries. For example, saurian shaman get the huge Frog Father, while no similar "Bear Father" or "Lion Father" is available.Frogs are neither reptiles nor Dinosaurs though. Why would the Saurian Shaman (already arguably the stronger animal shaman) be able wild shape into one ?
This is a good point, and the GM who allowed this was probably in error.
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+5 Natural Armor {This is the BIG one}
Even if 3PP templates were allowed, this wouldn't help. The AC bonuses of the creature you're turning into don't affect you.
"Large animal: If the form you take is that of a Large animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, a -2 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus."
That's all you get.