Dark Lord Fluffy's page

chalk it up to a poorly written item. All I know is that since it specifically mentions putting your head in, you have to be able to retract it. that means that if you put things into the "Exit" on one, they come out the "enter" on the other.

So I don't care how you label them, the gates are 2 way, in and out, one side of gate A is linked to a side of Gate B, and most likely the other side of Gate A is linked to the other side of Gate B. the only other reasonable conclusion is that the gates only have a single functioning side and things can go in and out freely between the two.

I saw it more as going through a push door with no handle on the other side. You can open the door, poke your head out, pull it back with no issue. But if you put something through or walk out the door and the door closes you can't come back in that door and need to go in the entrance on the other side.

I will definitely agree on it being poorly worded. Thanks for the feedback!

5. Something must happen when you enter the exit side. otherwise you couldn't retract your arm once you reach through. I view it as each one has a side A and a side B, what goes in side A on one comes out on side B on the other and vice versa.

See that would make sense. But the way the item is written is that there is an exit and an entrance on each ring. So if you go into one ring's exit how does that affect someone using the entrance that goes out through that exit?

If it were A to A and B to B for each ring it would make a ton more sense.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. A lot of what you said aligns with my initial impressions.

Ring gates seem like a really fun, but confusing item. Reading through the description I was left with several questions that I can't find an answer too. Any help is appreciated.

1. Can you see through a ring gate? If so is it one way or bidirectional? I assume yes because you can cast spells through it.

2. Speaking of spells. Do you calculate LoE and LoS using the gate or does the exit gate need to be in range of the spell from you? If I have an unseen servant carry the ring is its effective range now 100 miles?

3. What about area spells and emanations? If I cast lightning bolt can it pass through the ring?

4. Pressure differences. Would a ring gate at the bottom of a lake shoot out water? Would the solid stream be a continuous item or would it clip at 100 lbs?

5. What happens when something goes in the exit side? Does it pass through harmlessly? What about if someone sticks their arm in the exit side and leaves it there? How would that affect normal use?

I am sure I will think of more. But if anyone knows about the above it is appreciated.

Dave brought up some excellent points. Are you running a 'PC' or do you have an NPC that will be tagging with the player? It can be very easy for it to be perceived that DMPCs are favored, regardless of if it is actually true. To alleviate this you might consider having hireling type characters made closer to normal NPCs that can be changed between adventures as needed as opposed to a full on NPC party member.

Something else to consider is action economy. There is a reason that many DMs discourage 1 big monster encounter design. Unless you are so powerful that the enemy isn't really a threat, having a 3:1 or 4:1 action disadvantage can be a death sentence. There are lots of ways to add minions to the clerics arsenal; hirelings, summons, and bound outsiders at higher level. Heck maybe just give them leadership from level 1 as a bonus feat.

What is the general arc of the story and what level is your cleric? Easier to give more appropriate advice.

He doesn't use attack spells, but definitely likes to use magical tricks in combat. Grease, Enlarge Person, and Vanish are all great 1st level spells for him. At level 2 you have bladed dash, mirror image, and alter self which are a perfect fit flavor wise. Magus also have spell blending to poach some key spells from the wizard list. Even some more direct offensive magic like mud ball could be flavored to fit. You wouldn't be your normal shocking grasp magus, but I still think it is a great option.

Conversly, while I would say war priest is arguably a better rounded melee fighter overall, it just doesn't have the tricky type spells I would want for the Monkey King. But I guess it really comes down to how you want to play the character.

I must admit that my details on the legend itself is rather sparse, and i would love to find reading material that involve this character (Read as: Please point me to where i can find this stuff).

Though i like the path of war i have for restrictions always prevented myself from picking 3pp stuff so i can use it in any PF game without having to get an OK from a DM, but i thank you for pointing out some interesting options Fluffy.

You can always read Journey to the West for source material, but it is a lot to read. You can get a great TL;DR from the wiki if you read his entry and those of his companions. Really, this is such a popular character that is almost an archetype. There are so many variations on the core idea. I guess the best question is why did you decide to do this character? Was it something you saw? Use that as the base point for what you want. Currently it looks like you are focusing on staff fighting, which is a good direction to start.

I can appreciate wanting to stay away from 3pp. In that case I would second staff magus as a solid bet. Lots of spells you can use to boost your staff attacks and some options to poach key effects from other lists. Straight unchained monk is also a solid contender. While warpriest isn't bad, I don't really like it for Sun Wukong.

So maybe its better to make a "Mortal Pre-Legend" or "Young" version of him as he started out as before he achieved enlightenment?

He basically has demigod origins so even really young he was an absolute monster. If you can slip into 3rd party I honestly think Path of War would be your best bet. It does a great job capturing the feel of wuxia type characters. Stalker is an initiator and also gets access to some ki abilities. Discipline wise Broken Blade and Veiled Moon are pretty good choices. I would also look at Shattered Mirror and Riven Hourglass.

That was my Initial though as well, but I'm not DMing in this game and was hoping for a more official (or at least web-supported) way to price it to show the DM instead of an arbitrary number.

In this case it is not arbitrary. There is a rule for magic item pricing regarding charges per day. Each charge is worth 1/5 the cost of an the 'unlimited' price. Of course some items should never exist as unlimited. Since this item has no attunement and has no other abilities other then the single charge of dimension door, using the charge per day scale seems appropriate. You could look at boots of teleportation as an example item with a similar effect and multiple charges. It is just shy of 50k and grants teleport 3/day.

Honestly the pricing on that is a little off formula for its caster level, but there shouldn't be any harm in just tripling the cost going by the charges per day rule.

Does it matter if it is dire or not? You only get the stat modifiers the spell give and higher stats/larger is all dire usually gives.

I imagine you saw the kineticist from occult adventures. Imagine 3.5 warlock crossed with the last air bender. They are not true casters, but have lots of spell-like abilities. They pick an element focus and one of the options is Aether which is basically 'force'.

As has been said, most full casters are already jacks-of-all-trades without multiclassing so long as you pick your spells correctly. Really you are going to have to weigh your options and make some decisions. Decide what actual abilities you want. Why do you want arcane and divine, what effects are you trying to access?

What are you looking for from arcane casting? Obviously the most powerful option capable of nearly anything, but since optimization is more then 'play the wizard' not necessarily a mandatory choice.

What are you looking for from divine casting? Not quite as versatile as arcane casting out the gate, they are almost as powerful and excel in areas where arcane is weaker. A well played divine caster rivals most martial classes with a little buff time.

Martial classes. Really if you want melee as a caster it is better to plan to be a straight gish or focus on divine and play up their strengths.

Declindgrunt wrote:

why do meta magic rods work this way personally I do not think its fun as a caster to take longer just for the increased effect, personally in my groups games meta magic rods do not take up an increased time to cast or a higher spell slot

Because the feats work that way and items shouldn't beat out/be better than the feat, at least that is my guess.

Ehh, seems unlikely as they are arguably already better then the feat in a lot of cases. Especially for wizards who, as HyperMissingo pointed out, get to add metamagic on the fly which is normally the thing they can't do at all. It is letting wizards ignore both restrictions they face with metamagic (slots and prep) while ignoring slots for sorcerers.

Presumably he wants a package that has all of the bonus combat feats of a fighter, AND a bit of spellcasting.

Well he shot down Paladin and Ranger as too magical. With their various fighting styles, rangers are almost as feat blessed as fighters.

It might just be simpler to let him take those rogue talents as feats then. It is a quick and simple fix.

I'm sorry, but isn't Child of A&A just a fighter archetype that turns them into a arcane 4/9th caster? What exactly do they want and why are they hung up on fighter?

Well there is Paladin and Ranger. Do they not fit the bill?

No. And there shouldn't be. Brilliant energy weapons (if they worked against everything) would be incredibly powerful. The two things that stop everyone from using them are:

1) The cost, at a +4 equivalent enhancement it's super expensive (to continue enchanting your weapon)
2) The fact that such a weapon doesn't work against Undead, Constructs, objects, or other "non-living" things.

The thing that keeps everyone from using them is that they aren't that good. In addition to not working on 2 fairly common creature types, they also don't work against enemies which rely on natural armor. That is most non-humanoid enemies. For maybe for Pathfinder scenarios where there are more NPC enemies they are good, but in most of my play experience I have never seen anyone deliberately take a brilliant energy weapon. It isn't reliable against enough types of enemies, so if you need the bonus to hit you can't be sure it will actually work. It is +4 which is nearly half of your enchants so it is coming in late at the cost of good early enchants. Making it able to toggle at least makes it a consideration.

Just remembered. Skalds. Not as great for a general party, but can turn melee into monsters.

Well a bard will not be a fighter, even buffed they can't quite make that much of a shift. But they can be good melee combatants. Both Dex and Str builds are possible. Str builds aren't quite as powerful but are easier rules wise. Really a solid 2H and power attack is good for most situations.

What do they like about bard and what are they willing to lose? That will dictate some choices.

Archetypes. Bards have a few archetypes that make them very combat capable. Arcane Duelist and Archaeologist can open up some interesting options. Of course that is assuming you mean melee when you say combat. How do they actually want to fight?

Dark Lord Fluffy wrote:

Can I get a +4 weasel of wounding please?

fresh out, can I interest you in a +1 flaming, holy weasel?

Naw, I guess I'll just take a Vorpal Bunny instead. I know they come in white, but I was looking for black. You know, to help hide the blood stains.

Can I get a +4 weasel of wounding please?

So I am confused. The player just cast "create pit" right? Not spiked pit or hungry pit? What were they planning that having the ghoul in the pit "cheated" him out of the spell? I mean if the ghoul dug in sideways and couldn't be seen from the top I could imagine them being upset, but other then that, what? You want a ghoul in a pit, ghoul is in the pit.

Just like a "Hippie Tree-Hugger" Druid shouldn't be murdering cute fluffy bunnies and drinking their blood or eating non-organic food.

Are you implying the bunny wasn't organic?

Ok, I'll throw in. I played a N druid devoted to the elements and their expression. I can and did set forests on file to watch them burn. I broke a damn and flooded a valley. I even worked on causing a massive landslide that took off half a mountain (it had been heavily mined and I exploited the existing shafts). I also helped keep a city from sinking by raising a stone plateau underneath it and reclaimed a desert into grassland.

Did I fail to revere nature? Cause I killed a whole bunch of animals and trees basically for funsies. I'd say no. I revered a particular aspect of the natural world that was ultimately indifferent to life and I acted the same. I granted its blessings and brought its wrath as I saw fit. Druids don't have to live in forests and befriend fuzzy animals.

Hello everyone. My apologies on my delayed response. Thank you everyone who responded. I appreciate the feedback.

Recently in my game a tower shield specialist wanted to gain full cover from a stationary ranged enemy using a tower shield. For some reason I thought that a tower shield had to be set to be used in this manner, but reading the rules it does seem that all it takes is a standard action to gain cover from one direction until the start of your next turn. Does this mean that tower shield users can advanced on ranged battlements with impunity or edge along battle fields avoiding attacks of opportunity? I'm not sure that it is really too powerful to allow, but I wanted to know if there was any official clarification.

@Dark Lord Fluffy

I have a good sense motive and decent diplomacy so hopefully it will work out, but thank you for the warning. Regarding services, we're going to be going to the bargaining table so I'm expecting to get talked down a bit; regarding the duel I was hoping on playing their hubris. What self-respecting devil could stand to let a mere mortal challenge and insult him to his face without repercussions? I was also looking for quick fix options as the idea of extended contact with them is something my character would definitely frown upon, but at the same time forcing them to do supervised community service at my behest could be very satisfying. Thanks for the suggestion.

Well if you want a quick and easy service that they would probably love to do, have them hunt down lesser demons on the material plane and those that summon them. They will take glee in murdering these petty evils and you can be assured that at least it is a few less evil outsiders in the world.

As far as the insult angle, it is really going to depend on the devil's temperament and if it actually considers you a threat. Demons would be easier to provoke. Devils smile and let it slide to your face and then left the knife slide into your back later.

I side with option one just because of balance. It is basically a level 1 death spell. I don't see the balance in letting it keep trying until it fills its quota. Of course that is just my opinion.

Honestly, be extremely careful. Find someway for someone in the party to score high Sense Motive. That's a given. Also keep in mind they might just refuse your offer if it is actually dangerous for them to accept those terms. It depends on how desperate they are to clear out their rivals, which should be setting off alarm bells for you.

Best suggestion is to put a bounty on each rivals head in terms of gp and apply that towards future service via a planar ally type effect. They would have to provide the calling mechanism of course. You could even split the duration until you've spent all the bounty on services. This lets you have some control over when to use your favor and for what, so long as you keep it in the guidelines of the spell. It also will make them a little leery since they don't know when or for what you would call in your markers for. It gives lots of potential use, time to decide what you want to use it for, and seems completely reasonable on the surface.

You seem to be ignoring the specific example.

Perhaps it is because artisans tools are used singly not is pairs. I don't need two saws to cut a board. Perhaps there is no good reason other than thieves tools seem a lot more specialized to me.

I have to respectfully disagree. Blacksmiths often use tongs and a hammer at the same time. Tailors use straight pins and needles. These are all simple, common tools. It's really just a vaguely worded item. I have no problem letting the TAT work as MTT. MTT are not any type of special item, are referred to as tools, and locks and traps appear under the craft skill. Seems legit to me.

It's definitely an...odd wording. My interpretation is that it means you take their perception roll (including any vision/sense factors) instead of getting to roll your own, since you only would notice things that they notice. The wording is too vague for me to even call that RAI though, just the way I would houserule it.

^^This^^

Basically you get a feed of what the creature senses and what it knows about those senses. You can make decisions based on that knowledge and may know things about it that the subject doesn't, but you can't get details about the information the subject didn't perceive.

Going back to the language example, if the subject was trying to pay careful attention to someone speaking a language he didn't know you could make it out the words if you knew the language, though there may be some slip ups as it may difficulty perceiving unfamiliar sounds. However if you don't force the dominated creature to pay careful attention you would just get a string of gibberish with maybe the occasional clear word as the creature isn't properly processing the words it doesn't understand. In the opposite manner, if the creature is speaking a language you don't know, as long as the creature does you would get a full understanding of it even if the sounds don't make sense since the creature is providing the interpretation itself. For written languages I don't see in issue. Unless it's in a rush, it should have time to scrutinize and pass that information along just like the letters were a series of images.

Let's start off by saying I do LOVE roleplaying. My current character is a cleric of sun god who got turned into a Vampire. She still kept her patron but now using some of her divine abilities puts her at risk too. Its great balancing her original compassionate nature with those urges of the vampire. She is currently looking for a way to fix it, but its tempting not to as its been extremely useful in dealing with a lot of difficult situations. That is roleplaying to me.

Just because I want those mental and social things I paid for with character points to matter doesn't mean I don't enjoy the less defined aspects as well. I just get pissed when the fighter who dumped Int is always the one coming up with the brilliant ideas. I find it breaks immersion just as much as anything else when the people with low social and mentals don't act them out. If your charisma is low you should have trouble talking with people. Either you are shy and uncomfortable or you are obnoxious and unlikable. Do people like that IRL occasionally have moments, sure they do. That is what the d20 is for. Some times a genius rolls a 1 and gets an 8 total and the idiot rolls a natural 20.

Ultimately its going to vary from table to table, but like I said it is one of my pet peeves. If it costs the same as other resources it should be allowed to be as useful.

On the main thread topic, I'm in agreement that there is a difference in traps and hazards, but if it's a trap it has a DC and a way to stop it. I'd except the odd exception here or there for story reasons so long as it didn't become common.

The cover bonuses you get to AC are merely to reflect how much harder it is to hit someone you cannot see properly, so yes you probably would still get those bonuses as you cannot see through the shield/door. However, you would still be able to attack through those objects with the cover AC bonus/concealment but ignore the actual armour AC that they would grant.

I thought cover represented that a smaller portion of your body was able to be hit by an attack. Concealment represents being harder to see. A giant glass wall should still provide me cover even if you can see me properly. Its not my fault we live in this stupid opaque object oligarchy!

Regarding the 'roleplay' comments

Does my eloquent attack description and out of character knowledge of the monster's anatomy that tells me there is a large vulnerable portion under the left shoulder mean I don't need to worry about attack rolls or damage right? Its 'roleplaying' after all. Why should I worry about my to hit stat and base attack when I can just describe what I want to happen?

I know some groups hand wave those sort of things, but it really irks me because its almost universally applied to the mundane out of combat things exclusively. These skills and stats are part of the game. Giving bonuses for detailed descriptions or creative use is one thing, but it shouldn't replace entire swaths of the rules. Part of good 'roleplaying' is accurately representing the capabilities of the character. In Pathfinder those capabilities are represented by skills, feats, class abilities and ability scores. Ragekill the orc barbarian is not going to charm all the royals at court when he is packing an 8 in all his mentals and negative social skill modifiers no matter how suave his player is; nor should he try.

In my humble 2cp.

A bonus consists of 4 distinct parts.

A source: What is granting the bonus? You can't simply produce it from no where. Something (general rule, class ability, spell, feat, DM bribe) has to provide it to you.
An application: When is the bonus added? Some bonuses are very broad in application such as a luck stone's +1 bonus. While others are very narrow, I'm looking at you Bravery.
A type: What kind of bonus is it? Untyped bonuses do exist, but effectively untyped is a type at this point.
A value: How much does the bonus add? Since it is a bonus we assume a positive integer, but heck weirder things right?

According to the stacking rules, only the greatest bonus of a given type (or per a given source for untyped) is applied to a given roll. The only argument I can think that prevents substitution and a separate instance being added from stacking mechanically is if you consider the bonus from the stat an 'ability' bonus even if it otherwise untyped. That runs afoul of stacking rules. If you instead consider it a discreet bonus that simply mimics the value of an ability score bonus there is no contradiction.

What if you had Zen Archery and the boon but the boon, but rather then saying you add your wisdom bonus it said you add a bonus equal to your wisdom modifier? Or if it declared it's bonus to have a type such as divine or holy? Does that work?

If your point is that it's too powerful/broken, then you aren't arguing rules, you are arguing balance. Lots of things in Pathfinder are unbalanced but are technically rules legal.

So, I tried wading through the thread, but I didn't see what are the actual mechanics of these pastries. I don't think you are cranking out the equivalent of charm potions for every baked good, so that seems out. Correct me if I'm wrong. I mean you could totally have an evil magical bakery cranking out enchanted pastries that make people your unwitting spies, but that is an extreme viewpoint. My 2 cp are as follows:

From what I read and the way I'd interpret it. You use magic to enhance the flavor of your pastries so that people will want more. It's not an actual magical compulsion and it's not an addiction. In my eyes it would be that quality of the product are so high compared to the cost that a person has little reason not to want one. It's not unheard of for real life bakeries to have people lining up for their bake goods or having to limit them per person because they are that good. Word gets around and suddenly it's a full on brand and there is a certain prestige associated with it. This seems in line with that and is certainly something a low level spell like prestidigitation could do. Combine magically delicious (it had to be said) goods with what people think is an awesome company and this seems almost normal.

What would happen if someone didn't like sweets normally? Or if they were really determined to lose weight or any number of compelling reasons to not have a pastry? I don't think there is a constant line, so obviously some people choose not to get them. The mechanics are fuzzy at best, but it may just be if a person has a base 10% chance of coming into your bakery you increase that chance by 10%. They come twice as often, but aren't banging on the door in the middle of the night looking to inject cake batter into their arm.

As far as the loose lips thing. I could see that being represented by people getting a circumstance bonus on social skill rolls with the target due to them being in an off guard and agreeable mood for awhile, like what sometimes actually happens after you just had something you really enjoyed. The friendly counter staff, or maybe even the business owner himself, says hi and wants to hear about your day and how are things in your life and what you are up too. You enjoy that they are friendly and are taking and interest and you have a nice chat with them. Maybe you share some of the stresses of your job or a little bit of gossip you heard. After awhile you get to know them and feel comfortable talking to them, sharing a few more details then you would with strangers. They are always are willing to lend an ear and let you unload, so you do. I see this as a pastry based skill focus (diplomacy) with people who already have a positive opinion of you. If you are a pillar of the town, that is a lot of people giving you bits and pieces you can assemble into complete pictures. You don't have to pump a single person for information.

I can't really speak to the information brokering. It's neutral base and then is skewed by what you are doing with.

That's my fault. I was being somewhat unclear on my full intent. My DM gives stat increases as part of the level progression, so I don't need the enhancement bonus portion of the belt. I was going to pair the effect with the Rage or Blood Rage spell, a kind of raging inferno theme (just realizing how puny that actually is). I started under the assumption that the elemental body would be the most expensive portion, but what I found doesn't jibe with that. I was hoping there was an item that gave you one of the polymorph spells as a per day usage by itself or with a single secondary ability to asses the price reduction. However what you said did ring a bell for me that I didn't see before.

If we work off the assumption that limiting it to a single element is only 1/4th the use of the normal spell that would bring the price to under 6k. It still doesn't account for both the surcharge of two abilities on a slotted item and the force movement immunity, but it makes a great deal more sense in my head. I'll run this past my DM and see what he thinks. Thank you both for your feedback.

I wanted to make a custom item that gave uses of Elemental Body III or IV similar to the Earth Elemental Belt, though in my case it would fire. My DM is fine with it so I looked for a similar item to use as a base. I found the earth elemental belt and tried to break it down. The raw rules for pricing a magic item say that a 1/day use of a level 6 spell should be 23,750 gp (((6*11)*1800)/5). The belt only costs 24,000 gp total and is a +4 Con belt with force movement negation in addition to the elemental body effect.

I know not all items follow the pricing formula exactly, but that is a huge divergence. Most the items I found that gave you a polymorph effect had other abilities that made trying to figure the price of the polymorph part of the item hard, but they all seemed to clock in under the default pricing guideline. Is it because they lock you to a single form as opposed to picking per activation? Does anyone have a good example item to use as a base or know why there seems to be such a large discount on the effect. Insight and thoughts greatly appreciated.