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Generally, you can't overshoot a DC in a manner that would be detrimental.
In your specific example, if the jumper is aware of the trap on the other side of the pit, and makes the jump by a good margin, he can choose to come up short so as to avoid the trap. Now, if he was unaware of the trap, or was actively trying to jump over it, and rolled short, he may well stumble into it.
It is, however, possible to get so good at something that it actually makes your character LESS powerful than it could be. For example, say you have a min/maxed fighter that can hit every CR-appropriate enemy on a roll of 2 or better, and can even do the same for most enemies of a higher CR.
Continuing to spend character resources on attack accuracy would, in effect, be wasted. It would be better, and would make your character more powerful, to spend those resources on other areas, such as AC, skills, or saves.
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There are some cases when beating the DC by a certain amount changes the effect. For example, in some cases Intimidate can frighten the target instead of just shaking him. Now, if you don't want the target to run away, you just wanted to lower his combat capability, him being frightened may be worse for you than him being just shaken.
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Landing on an aircraft carrier comes to mind as something you definitely not want to overshoot.
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Landing on an aircraft carrier comes to mind as something you definitely not want to overshoot.
While terrifying, from what I understand the method is pretty safe.
Once you hit the flight deck you go to max throttle to prepare to take off in case the hook on your plane doesn't catch the cable on the deck. So as long as you don't completely miss the deck, you should probably be okay.
Probably.
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I have heard stories about PCs "rolling too well" and having to deal with failure because of it, getting a crit and killing an enemy with a non lethal weapon or critting with a bow which made a spark that ignited fumes in a building and killed everyone in it. But all of those stories came down to really crazy house rules. The game as intended has no mechanism for penalizing players for beating the DC of a check no matter how well they do. It does come up in some other game systems but even then, beating the DC comes with advantages, i cant think of any that penalize you.
Killing with nonlethal damage isn't a house rule, though the rules make it pretty hard to accidentally kill with nonlethal damage. To wit:
If a creature’s nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage.
That exception aside, Pathfinder doesn't penalize you for exceeding DCs. The system's generally pretty binary when it comes to success and failure: you either meet or beat the target number and win, or don't meet it and fail.
I have heard stories about PCs "rolling too well" and having to deal with failure because of it, getting a crit and killing an enemy with a non lethal weapon or critting with a bow which made a spark that ignited fumes in a building and killed everyone in it. But all of those stories came down to really crazy house rules. The game as intended has no mechanism for penalizing players for beating the DC of a check no matter how well they do. It does come up in some other game systems but even then, beating the DC comes with advantages, i cant think of any that penalize you.Killing with nonlethal damage isn't a house rule, though the rules make it pretty hard to accidentally kill with nonlethal damage. To wit:
If a creature’s nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage.That exception aside, Pathfinder doesn't penalize you for exceeding DCs. The system's generally pretty binary when it comes to success and failure: you either meet or beat the target number and win, or don't meet it and fail.
I can't really see that happening unless you get a high damage crit against a really weak creature with a x4 crit weapon or something.
Generally though, if you're a 10th-level character, one must wonder why you're sapping a 1st-level enemy AND choosing to use Power Attack and a host of other enhancers.
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Let's say you're a low-to-mid-level PC trying to stun a Level 1 peasant to stop him raising the alarm when you're breaking into the Temple of Evil.
If you're a strong martial you might be doing 2d6 + 12 damage without power attack. A x2 critical will do an average of 38 damage. It takes about 30 nonlethal damage to kill a peasant. You could probably switch off a couple of weapon abilities to reduce the damage, but you don't necessarily know the person you're clubbing is level 1.
What is a peasant doing in an evil temple, rather than an evil acolyte more appropriate to your level?
Sure, that could happen I suppose, but odds are that if it did, you're either playing an evil PC who loves clubbing weak peasants, or the GM is setting you up to fail.
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What is a peasant doing in an evil temple, rather than an evil acolyte more appropriate to your level?
Because a lot of GM's [and even writers] don't like the Authority = Asskicking trope. It's silly and unrealistic that Marlon Brando's Godfather should be better in combat than any of his hit men. And it's also silly and unrealistic that everyone who lives and works in the evil temple should be an 8th level über-barbarian, including the people who make the beds, scrub the floors, and empty the chamber pots.
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I have heard stories about PCs "rolling too well" and having to deal with failure because of it, getting a crit and killing an enemy with a non lethal weapon or critting with a bow which made a spark that ignited fumes in a building and killed everyone in it. But all of those stories came down to really crazy house rules. The game as intended has no mechanism for penalizing players for beating the DC of a check no matter how well they do. It does come up in some other game systems but even then, beating the DC comes with advantages, i cant think of any that penalize you.Killing with nonlethal damage isn't a house rule, though the rules make it pretty hard to accidentally kill with nonlethal damage. To wit:
If a creature’s nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage.That exception aside, Pathfinder doesn't penalize you for exceeding DCs. The system's generally pretty binary when it comes to success and failure: you either meet or beat the target number and win, or don't meet it and fail.I can't really see that happening unless you get a high damage crit against a really weak creature with a x4 crit weapon or something.
Generally though, if you're a 10th-level character, one must wonder why you're sapping a 1st-level enemy AND choosing to use Power Attack and a host of other enhancers.
Do you often ask the night time guard what level he is before you knock him out so he can't trigger the alarm?
Do you often ask the night time guard what level he is before you knock him out so he can't trigger the alarm?
Because a lot of GM's [and even writers] don't like the Authority = Asskicking trope. It's silly and unrealistic that Marlon Brando's Godfather should be better in combat than any of his hit men. And it's also silly and unrealistic that everyone who lives and works in the evil temple should be an 8th level über-barbarian, including the people who make the beds, scrub the floors, and empty the chamber pots.
Tropes aside, the game does generally assume that you're facing appropriate challenges (if a player) or setting up appropriate challenges for your players (if a GM). Much of the game is silly and unrealistic; that doesn't change the fundamental mechanics that the GMs and players are expected to use.
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Tropes aside, the game does generally assume that you're facing appropriate challenges (if a player) or setting up appropriate challenges for your players (if a GM).
You're assuming -- incorrectly -- that everything you encounter is supposed to be a challenge, and further that it's supposed to be a combat challenge. Even if you're twelfth level, the barmaid who shortchanges you at the Pig and Whistle is still only level 1, and the only "challenge" is to see how you react, because it will cause negative consequences down the road if you simply kill Betsy out of hand.
Not every locked door is supposed to require you to take 20 to pick; some doors are just locked for verisimiltude. Not every person who talks to you is supposed to be a combat challenge -- some are just there to feed information you will need later, and some are supposed to set you up for other challenges later.
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I can't really see that happening unless you get a high damage crit against a really weak creature with a x4 crit weapon or something.
Seen it. 2nd level Commoner did not know they were stepping to a 10th level party in the bar fight. Sap Master Rogue bludgeoned them to death with one hit.
Tropes aside, the game does generally assume that you're facing appropriate challenges (if a player) or setting up appropriate challenges for your players (if a GM).You're assuming -- incorrectly -- that everything you encounter is supposed to be a challenge, and further that it's supposed to be a combat challenge. Even if you're twelfth level, the barmaid who shortchanges you at the Pig and Whistle is still only level 1, and the only "challenge" is to see how you react, because it will cause negative consequences down the road if you simply kill Betsy out of hand.
Not every locked door is supposed to require you to take 20 to pick; some doors are just locked for verisimiltude. Not every person who talks to you is supposed to be a combat challenge -- some are just there to feed information you will need later, and some are supposed to set you up for other challenges later.
I don't think that's a fair comparison to what I said.
Someone who attacks Betsy the barmaid out of hand is not what I'm referring to--that's probably not roleplaying, but a troll who has infiltrated your table. I'm referring to the bandits that ambush the PCs on the open road, or the cultists defending their template from PC invaders, and so on; in short, planned encounters set up by the GM.
Multiple books clearly state that there is a range of power that you're expected to put against your players. If that's not happening, then either your group enjoys changing things up, or something has gone terribly wrong.
If your character is worried about not harming innocents, at a certain point you start looking into other avenues other than damage, even non-lethal. If you think you're that much higher level, then trip or grapple are an option even if you haven't the feats for it, to control them.
Also, I think a good character can get behind "You there, your banditry shall not be tolerated! Either surrender or face the consequences!"
A fight ensues as the bandits refuse to surrender and are killed in the process, weaker than anticipated.
"Well, they were weaker than expected. Unfortunate for them, but at least these roads are clear for everyone now. Lets bury them properly."
It might not be the desired outcome, but it's not an outcome any character should be penalized by.
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I don't think that's a fair comparison to what I said.
Shrug. I do. It is directly responsive to what you said.
You asked, and I quote, "What is a peasant doing in an evil temple, rather than an evil acolyte more appropriate to your level?"
The direct answer to that question is : she's serving drinks. Or mopping floors, or making beds, or emptying chamber pots, or whatever, because not everyone who works in an evil temple is necessarily a level-appropriate combat encounter.
I would argue, that the peasant working in the evil temple is probably an evil peasant though.
So...do you really care? Especially if the option of surrender is presented.
And, if for some reason the party comes across her (and shes not evil) loudly shouting "I just work here, don't kill me!" is probably a wise course of action on her part.
On the topic of the original question, I have always thought of it as a margin of success. Rolling high on an Acrobatics check to jump does not automatically make for a long jump. As long as you succeed the check, how you succeed the check is fluff, a 30 on an Acrobatics check could simply mean you cleared your jump, or it could mean you jump exactly as far as you wanted to. Either way, you still cleared the jump
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I did this in a PFS adventure.
I was playing a samurai, I think I was 1st or 2nd level. We were fighting low-level rogues, and this particular enemy had already taken a lethal damage hit.
I stepped up to put him down gently with some nonlethal damage (iirc, the briefing suggested not killing anyone). Rolled a crit with the katana, followed by rolling almost max damage on the 2d8. With the wounds he already had, he went straight to dead-dead.
My samurai felt great shame.
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I did this in a PFS adventure.
I was playing a samurai, I think I was 1st or 2nd level. We were fighting low-level rogues, and this particular enemy had already taken a lethal damage hit.
I stepped up to put him down gently with some nonlethal damage (iirc, the briefing suggested not killing anyone). Rolled a crit with the katana, followed by rolling almost max damage on the 2d8. With the wounds he already had, he went straight to dead-dead.
My samurai felt great shame.
Had a similar thing with my level 1 cleric of Urgathoa at the very start of a campaign. Tried to soften a guy up a bit, scythe crit. Whoops, have 30 extra damage against a CR1 foe.
One of my first third edition characters was a monk. At one point in the heat of battle I needed to leap from one ship to another. My jump check was absurdly high and the Dungeonmaster said that I leapt clear over the ship and landed in the water on the other side. I was not pleased with this, and if anyone was capable of swimming in the storm it was me, but it took me out of the battle for at least a few rounds. I mean, he probably did it so I would have to fight a shark or something.
This explains why olympic athletes are incapable of simply hopping over a puddle without clearing the car on the other side.....
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One of my first third edition characters was a monk. At one point in the heat of battle I needed to leap from one ship to another. My jump check was absurdly high and the Dungeonmaster said that I leapt clear over the ship and landed in the water on the other side. I was not pleased with this, and if anyone was capable of swimming in the storm it was me, but it took me out of the battle for at least a few rounds. I mean, he probably did it so I would have to fight a shark or something.
Yeah, bull &&^^& like this is why I don't like "if you succeed too well, you fail" rules.
Demons and Devils have a chance of being able to cast wish/have loot.
Betsy has a broom.
Demons and Devils have a chance of being able to cast wish/have loot.
Betsy has a broom.
Is it a magic broom?
Quick, someone cast Detect Magic for me!
My "crazy houserule" is that non-lethal damage cannot kill. Otherwise it should be called "somewhat lethal damage".
As to the question, I have set a specific range before where rolling too high would have consequences, but only in cases where a character had a newfound power and I wanted to reflect the lack of precise control.
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there is a 20 foot gaping pit in front of you. you need to get across. that's when you notice a foot wide pillar in the center of the pit. you have to make a roll that will allow you to jump the ten feet and land on the pillar. but if you roll too well you might jump further then the 10 needed to land on the pillar. you rolled a X and over shoot the pillar and fall into the spiked pit trap.
No, that's not how the rules work.
You decide how far you want to jump, and you need to meet or exceed the DC to jump that far.
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but if you roll too well you might jump further then the 10 needed to land on the pillar. you rolled a X and over shoot the pillar and fall into the spiked pit trap.
That doesn't happen.
And it would be your decision as to whether you want to jump a certain distance and no more or jump as far as you can. "Doing too well" is only a problem if you selected the second option because you failed to perceive the trap(s) beyond the pit and thus mistakenly decided that your best bet was to get as far beyond the pit as possible.
If overshooting was a possibility, then someone trying to land on a 5-foot wide platform with a running jump would have at least a 75% chance of failure, no matter how skilled he was. Rolled a one to four? Too low! You failed! Roll a ten to twenty? Too high! You failed! Take ten? Too high! You failed!
there is a 20 foot gaping pit in front of you. you need to get across. that's when you notice a foot wide pillar in the center of the pit. you have to make a roll that will allow you to jump the ten feet and land on the pillar. but if you roll too well you might jump further then the 10 needed to land on the pillar. you rolled a X and over shoot the pillar and fall into the spiked pit trap.
Clever trap makers don't have a single pillar coming up from the pit. They have two pillars, one coming up from the pit, and one coming down from the ceiling over the same location. The top pillar has a permanent invisibility spell on it. Jumping across the pit results in someone bouncing off the invisible pillar and falling into the pit. >D