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Is the produce flame spell considered a touch spell for the purposes of determining whether or not you can attack with it as part of casting the spell?
Of course!
Also, it's fun to combine with Rapid Shot. :-D
There's nothing in the spell that excludes it from the Touch Spell rules. In fact, making melee touch attacks is mentioned throughout its description.
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Actually, the answer is quite simply "no".
Produce flame has a range of "0 feet", whereas normal touch spells have a range of, quite literally, "touch". While produce flame may provide the option to make touch attacks, it only says "with a melee/ranged touch attack". It doesn't say as a free action or as part of the casting of the spell, therefore we must default to an action cost of "standard" (or, depending on interpretation, a full-round action, but the big man upstairs has pretty much stated this doesn't work) in order to use said melee/ranged touch attack.
To make a parallel, beast shape costs an action to give you the option to use natural attacks, but does not provide a way to use those natural attacks during that turn.
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This is kind of the result I was expecting from the community.
How do you determine if a spell is a touch spell for the purposes of whether or not you can make a free touch attack as part of its casting?
For example, produce flame references touch attacks several times in its description, but it is listed with a range of "0 ft.," not "touch." Can I make a melee or ranged touch attack as part of casting the spell?
Please FAQ this post if you'd like an official response.
I agree with Johnny_Devo, it's not a touch spell. It makes you able to make touch attacks after it is cast, but not as part of casting.
Compare with flame blade, shadow weapon, river whip, or other similar spells.
No, the 0 ft. reach of the spell refers to the fact that the flame appears in the palm of your hand, which is the same square as you.
It has nothing to do with the range of your attack with the flame, which is your melee reach, dependent on your size.
I can think of only one way to be able to make an attack with the flame on the same turn as the casting, an that is magus's spell combat ability.
hmm... what if someone were in your square (say a tiny creature); that would qualify as 0 ft. yes? would you get the touch attack?
The problem isn't the range. The problem is the rule says if a spell has a "range of touch" you get a free attack. This spell does not have a range of "touch", it has a range of "0 ft". So by RAW it does not seem to qualify.
It looks like I have been doing this wrong, I have always allowed an initial touch attack. Johnny Devo's (and others) assessment however is quite clearly correct. There is no real strength to the arguments to counter it so far. Pending some rules revelation I have missed I don't think an FAQ is required.
produce flame
"Flames as bright as a torch appear in your open hand. The flames harm neither you nor your equipment.
In addition to providing illumination, the flames can be hurled or used to touch enemies. You can strike an opponent with a melee touch attack, dealing fire damage equal to 1d6 + 1 point per caster level (maximum +5). Alternatively, you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon. When doing so, you attack with a ranged touch attack (with no range penalty) and deal the same damage as with the melee attack. No sooner do you hurl the flames than a new set appears in your hand. Each attack you make reduces the remaining duration by 1 minute. If an attack reduces the remaining duration to 0 minutes or less, the spell ends after the attack resolves."
Technically speaking the description of the spell solidifies its rules under that of a touch spell, regardless of its listed range. Descriptions of spells always take precedence over the listed saving throw or range or duration as they often explain scenarios that are not covered by the basic splat info.
So in short. yes you can in fact hurl the flame at the same time you cast it as a free action.
Utilising the mechanics of touch attacks within it does not make it a range:touch spell. To gain the benefits of the free initial attack the spell needs to be range:touch.
Nothing within the description of the spell over-rides that requirement.
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As I mentioned in a previous post, there are other similar spells with range of 0 ft., for example flame blade, shadow weapon and river whip. They all create some kind of weapon that you can use on the subsequent rounds. For some of them you use normal melee attacks, for other touch melee attacks.
This isn't a typo if it is consinsently present in a series of similar spells. Touch spells have always Range: touch, and Target: creature touched, and all of these spells have Range: 0 ft. and Effect: (some magical way to attack opponents).
Coincidence? I think not.
i think that what every one missed so far by focusing on the touch attack is that this spell is a hybrid. so naming the range is complicated.
most touch spells make a charge in your hand that last X number of attacks and allow a free touch attack on it's 1st round. later rounds need to use a full attack or standard action to discharge.
most range touch attack allow (at least one) free ranged touch attack in the same round that you cast it. some might allow more on continues rounds.
preduce flame was made a hybrid spell to allow it to be both touch and range touch attacks.
since in this case mantoning range and touch might be confusing they made it a charage that stay in the hand( like any other charged touch attack) and in the description explaind that you can ether throw or touch with it.
so right, if you want to be anal about it you can say it is not a ranged touch spell with range in close\medium\long . nor is it touch range so you get not free attack.
but i personly think that its weird that touch spells have enough time with casting for a free attack, and ranged touch spells have enough time when casting for a free range touch attack but this spell which is both has time for nither.
will you agree that if you ignore all the touch attack mantioned in this spell it should have been allowed a free ranged touch attack?
Nowhere in the spell's description does it say that you can make an attack as part of casting the spell. There is a rule that lets you attempt to touch an opponent in the same round as casting a spell, but that explicitly applies only to spells with a range of touch, which this isn't. So there's no reason to think that you can make an attack as part of casting this spell.
Shocking grasp has a range of touch so it doesn't need to mention it, and scorching ray has a duration of instantenous and effect: rays, so it's obvious the attacks are made immediately.
Shocking grasp has a range of touch so it doesn't need to mention it, and scorching ray has a duration of instantenous and effect: rays, so it's obvious the attacks are made immediately.
1st you will need to bring a ranged spell that has more shots then you can make in 1 round to make it stick.
but even considering acid splash, it never said that the attack you make is in fact on the same round that you cast. so do you cast acid splash and shoot on the next turn? after all casting acid splash is a standard action and shooting it should require an attack beyond that2nd as i mantioned since this is a hybrid saying range touch or range close\medium\long is a problem is why they explained it in the description.
Acid splash is also instantenous. That makes it clear.
Instantenous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.
(...)
Subjects, Effects, and Areas: If the spell affects creatures directly, the result travels with the subjects for the spell’s duration. If the spell creates an effect, the effect lasts for the duration. (...)
If the spell is instantenous, and has an effect that is 'a missile of acid', 'one or more rays' or something similar, then this effect last only for the instant the spell is cast, which means it gets fired and hits (or misses) the target on the round of the casting.
Also, there's no such thing as a hybrid spell, that's your own terminology. Produce flame is clearly written as a spell of range 0 ft. (which means its effect appears on the caster's square, like in case of flame blade for example). Its effect is a fire in the palm of caster's hand, And it lasts for 1 min./level (though this duration can be reduced). While the spell lasts, the caster has an ability to make melee and ranged touch attacks, as said in the spell description. But there's no saying in the spell description that he can make an attack as a part of the casting, nor the spell is of range of touch, for which a general rule exists.
Adjoint is spot on!
One thing in the Produce Flame that treated by RAW is unlikely how it is intended, is Spell Resistance entry. The spell is affected by spell resistance, but it doesn't have a target. (Attacks made while the spell lasts obviously do, but the spell itself doesn't.) Therefore it could be ruled that the spell resistance is the spell resistance of the caster, who needs to hold the fire in his palm. But it's obvious to me that it isn't what is intended, and RAI is that it's the attacks what is affected by SR.
Actually, spell resistance doesn't need there to be a target. Any ongoing spell effect can be subject to a creature's spell resistance.
I'm willing to belive you are right, but
The Spell Resistance entry and the descriptive text of a spell description tell you whether spell resistance protects creatures from the spell. In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place.
So I'd think that by RAW only spell resistance of the target matters, unless said otherwise. Although in case of a spell with no targets yet allowing SR, it only makes sense if the SR works upon encountering the effect.
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From the combat chapter,
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action.
So if the spell doesn't list a range of touch, then it's not a touch spell, and you don't get the free touch.
Look at p 565 of the Core Rulebook, "When Spell Resistance Applies". For effect spells, it depends on whether the spell "acts on a creature more or less directly".
Look at p 565 of the Core Rulebook, "When Spell Resistance Applies". For effect spells, it depends on whether the spell "acts on a creature more or less directly".
Got it. Thanks.
