Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?

[ProximaC]

thejeff wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

-Snip-

Except, as we keep pointing out, you can't get paid for it. You're a PC. You can't MAKE A LIVING by crafting. You can't sell above cost*, precisely as a game balance mechanism to keep characters from breaking the intended WBL guidelines.

The only way to turn a profit on crafting as a PC is to sell to other PCs, since the rules don't bind them.

Selling magic items at market is not quite the same scenario as having someone come to you and ask to commission something.

If the DM had an NPC come up to a crafter wizard I was playing and ask to enchant his sword to +1, I'd absolutely entertain that request. But if the NPC then proceeded to only offer 1000gp "since you can only sell magic items at half cost", I'd laugh, and the NPC would be getting told to pound sand.

Having said that, my preferred method for handling crafting for other PCs is to charge 75% of full price, and then use that extra 1/4th of purchase cost to make or buy a whole load of consumables for party use. That way I get tons of utility because I'm carrying around a bucketful of potions and dozens of scrolls, but the money's clearly getting invested back in the whole party, not just me.

[Baval]

graystone wrote:

Baval wrote:

graystone wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Also, if it doesn't matter where you go in-game because you will always pay 100% of the market price, and the party crafter makes it for you 75% of the market price, you DID GET A DISCOUNT. That's indisputable. You saved money versus literally going anywhere else in the world. That's the very definition of a getting a discount.

It's true that, mechanically speaking, the crafter can't make a living off of selling his items while adventuring, but that's a different issue entirely (and actually, with downtime rules and feats and traits that give additional discounts, this is actually very possible).

What's also indisputable is that "literally going anywhere else in the world", the crafter sells his items for 50% of market value, and that selling to your party at 75% is a MARK UP. "That's indisputable" It's not "a different issue entirely" but the main issue; The crafter is trying to be a retailer when they are a wholesaler.

Again, If I go with your argument, how much should I charge for the free potions I make with Druidic Herbalism? 25% 50% 75? 100%?

no crafter sells things they make for the price it cost them to make. They would go out of business that way in like a day.

retailers upcharge because they make it convenient to buy things, but they still have to buy from the wholesaler whos charging for his work.

That applies for NPC's only. PC's are wholesalers, who only get 50% of the market price for their work. That's how the game works. The GAME has set the PC's time and effort at 0gp worth, not me. I'm expecting at least the same cost as some random NPC off the street not the 'family' discount that's an actual increase.

And I'll ask since you didn't say anything. How much are you paying for my druids free potions? Since you assume time and effort get a reward instead of the actual cost then free potions should be rewarded with cash right?

no, 50% value is what a shop will buy an item for, thats not what a PC can sell it for (nor is that what being a wholeseller is. Its closer to selling to a pawnbroker). If a PC can find a buyer he can sell an item for whatever price he wants. A random NPC is not thinking about reselling things that he buys from a PC, if hes buying the item he wants to use it so of course hed be willing to pay what to him is a 25% discount on what he would pay if he went to a shop to buy it. If the DM wont allow the PC to find a buyer, the DM still cant control other PCs. If the PC sells to another PC at 75% market value or even 125% market value the DM literally cant do anything about it.

And quite frankly, its a jerk railroading DM who decides that "because youre a PC no one will buy your dagger any higher than the price you paid to forge it, even if they will buy inferior dagger at twice the price from the blacksmith next door"

[Baval]

Torbyne wrote:

Baval wrote:

graystone wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Also, if it doesn't matter where you go in-game because you will always pay 100% of the market price, and the party crafter makes it for you 75% of the market price, you DID GET A DISCOUNT. That's indisputable. You saved money versus literally going anywhere else in the world. That's the very definition of a getting a discount.

It's true that, mechanically speaking, the crafter can't make a living off of selling his items while adventuring, but that's a different issue entirely (and actually, with downtime rules and feats and traits that give additional discounts, this is actually very possible).

What's also indisputable is that "literally going anywhere else in the world", the crafter sells his items for 50% of market value, and that selling to your party at 75% is a MARK UP. "That's indisputable" It's not "a different issue entirely" but the main issue; The crafter is trying to be a retailer when they are a wholesaler.

Again, If I go with your argument, how much should I charge for the free potions I make with Druidic Herbalism? 25% 50% 75? 100%?

no crafter sells things they make for the price it cost them to make. They would go out of business that way in like a day.

retailers upcharge because they make it convenient to buy things, but they still have to buy from the wholesaler whos charging for his work.

If you are a retailer you are an NPC, not a party member. Party members make money by adventuring not by crafting. if you want to make money by crafting than you are playing a fantasy business simulator and are outside the scope of the Pathfinder rules.

No, if my character is a retailer and im controlling him, hes a PC. If hes traveling with a band of adventurers, hes a party member. If im not controlling him even if hes out slaying dragons, hes an NPC. Thats how it works. You can not want to play "fantasy business simulator" if you want, thats your business, but if I want to I can (using Pathfinders rules no less.) You dont get to dictate that the way I want to play is wrong just because you dont like it.

[Baval]

ProximaC wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

-Snip-

Except, as we keep pointing out, you can't get paid for it. You're a PC. You can't MAKE A LIVING by crafting. You can't sell above cost*, precisely as a game balance mechanism to keep characters from breaking the intended WBL guidelines.

The only way to turn a profit on crafting as a PC is to sell to other PCs, since the rules don't bind them.

Selling magic items at market is not quite the same scenario as having someone come to you and ask to commission something.

If the DM had an NPC come up to a crafter wizard I was playing and ask to enchant his sword to +1, I'd absolutely entertain that request. But if the NPC then proceeded to only offer 1000gp "since you can only sell magic items at half cost", I'd laugh, and the NPC would be getting told to pound sand.

Having said that, my preferred method for handling crafting for other PCs is to charge 75% of full price, and then use that extra 1/4th of purchase cost to make or buy a whole load of consumables for party use. That way I get tons of utility because I'm carrying around a bucketful of potions and dozens of scrolls, but the money's clearly getting invested back in the whole party, not just me.

exactly how I do it too. Best way to play a crafter.

[Baval]

James Risner wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

nicholas storm wrote:

You can't equate real life to the game, because by game terms you are charging your family more than what you charge everyone else.

Huh? I charge my family and friends the same amount for my services as I do everyone else. I do give discounts on occasion, but it's usually not solely on the basis that they are a family or a friend.

You also have time to take the photos and experience in training. In Pathfinder, there is no time spent "GM I make it" and no experience "Write Craft Wondrous Item on character sheet."

No, in real life there is no time spent making Pathfinder items. In Golarion, there is time spent making items, which the PC who doesnt know hes a PC can then charge extra money for, not say "well it didnt cost Bob who controls my every whim any time, so no charge"

James Risner wrote:

Gray Warden wrote:

In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?

I've done the caster route once, because I wanted/needed to double my effective wealth by level. I made items for others at cost.

I've had one player try to request we pay him retail for crafted items. The entire table said no after learning he wasn't joking.

There may be a value below 100% retail and above 50% cost that I (and others)might accept. I'd take the discount but I wouldn't be happy with the player charging me extra beyond his cost.it isn't like the PC is doing work, the PC is just saying to GM "my character makes the item" and he's done. So anything above cost seems unfair, inappropriate, gouging, and wrong.

Your logic is since the player is just saying "i make the item" he doesnt deserve to profit from it, since hes not doing any actual real life work. Ok, cool. So since youre just saying "i swing the sword" or "i cast the spell" there should be no loot, since youre not killing any actual monsters.

[graystone]

Baval wrote:

And quite frankly, its a jerk railroading DM who decides that "because youre a PC no one will buy your dagger any higher than the price you paid to forge it, even if they will buy inferior dagger at twice the price from the blacksmith next door"

You mean a jerk that follows the rules of the game? Why is he a jerk when you sell YOUR dagger but not a jerk when you sell one you found in an adventure? If you want a reason, it's most likely that a store has a reputation that will go up or down depending on the quality of the work. Random PC #2 just isn't going to be selling enough to get the same reputation unless they aren't PCing and instead turned into a merchant.

graystone wrote:

And I'll ask since you didn't say anything. How much are you paying for my druids free potions? Since you assume time and effort get a reward instead of the actual cost then free potions should be rewarded with cash right?

You STILL haven't replied to this question. How much to you expect me to charge you for a free potion?

[Baval]

graystone wrote:

Baval wrote:

And quite frankly, its a jerk railroading DM who decides that "because youre a PC no one will buy your dagger any higher than the price you paid to forge it, even if they will buy inferior dagger at twice the price from the blacksmith next door"

You mean a jerk that follows the rules of the game? Why is he a jerk when you sell YOUR dagger but not a jerk when you sell one you found in an adventure? If you want a reason, it's most likely that a store has a reputation that will go up or down depending on the quality of the work. Random PC #2 just isn't going to be selling enough to get the same reputation unless they aren't PCing and instead turned into a merchant.

graystone wrote:

And I'll ask since you didn't say anything. How much are you paying for my druids free potions? Since you assume time and effort get a reward instead of the actual cost then free potions should be rewarded with cash right?

You STILL haven't replied to this question. How much to you expect me to charge you for a free potion?

No, thats not the rules of the game. The rule says "in generaL". Those are the rules for selling to a shop, not for owning a shop and selling to other people. There are rules for that. A dagger I found adventuring is used, probably messed up from combat. If its not, then I fully expect to get full or 75% value from selling it to someone who was looking to buy a dagger. Are you telling me If a farmer was looking for a dagger, he wouldnt buy it from me at full price but if I sold it to a merchant in front of him for half price hed then buy it from that merchant at full price? What is this robot land you run?

You know what is not covered by the rules though? a store that "has a reputation that will go up or down depending on the quality of the work"

Why are you so hard pressed on "this is what the book says period" when it comes to me selling a dagger, but are willing to fluctuate for NPCs?

And again youre confusing "does things I dont like to do in my RPG" with "is not a PC". A player who decides to become a merchant is still "PCing". An NPC who starts adventuring does not randomly become a PC (and lose his ability to sell items at full value apparently). What if my character IS selling enough to have a good reputation (my character has sold bicycles to an entire kingdom, and armed an army with cheap pistols during a crisis). Then is he allowed to sell things at full price without suddenly becoming an NPC, or is that against the rules? A player controlled non player character, lol.

And ill respond to your question. If the potion is completely free, no time or money spent on it, you can sell it for whatever you like. If its costs time to make, you can sell it for whatever you like. You know, because its your potion.

[Brain in a Jar]

When i play a caster with crafting feats here is how it goes.

Fighter: "Hey Wizard could you make me a Belt of Strength(+2)?

Wizard: "Sure that will cost you 3,000 Gold.

Fighter: "That's a ripoff. I'm not paying you an extra 1,000 gold.

Wizard: "Okay fine. I'll spend my downtime making myself items with my crafting feat. I really want a Headband so maybe if i get time later I'll make your belt...unless I'm making something else."

Fighter: "What about my Belt?"

Wizard: "Go buy one for 4,000 Gold in the market or make it yourself."

Fighter: "..."

You see if i invest in a crafting feat. I'm planning on investing my downtime, which could be very limited base on the adventure to make the items i want with it.

So my items take priority. I usually offer a small discount to stop working on my items to work on someone else's item.

I mean there are plenty of entitled players floating around. So when i encounter one of them who get pissy at me wanting to benefit from my investment. I just tell them to go to the market or learn to make it themselves if they want to b$~&%.

[Tarik Blackhands]

Brain in a Jar wrote:

You see if i invest in a crafting feat. I'm planning on investing my downtime, which could be very limited base on the adventure to make the items i want with it.

So my items take priority. I usually offer a small discount to stop working on my items to work on someone else's item.

I mean there are plenty of entitled players floating around. So when i encounter one of them who get pissy at me wanting to benefit from my investment. I just tell them to go to the market or learn to make it themselves if they want to b+%@~.

Yeah and under that same attitude, I'm sure the party cleric charges full price for raising people from the dead or restoring those negative levels after a wight encounter. Or maybe the bard starts charging a "I diplomized us out of an encounter" fee and the barbarian starts asking for a "I gibbed this guy before he acted saving you all resources" tax. After all, those poor guys are just demanding fair compensation for their character investments and if someone's unappreciative, you can direct them to a bunch of hirelings they can use instead. Obviously.

I dunno, maybe my parties are just a bunch of wierdos where the party is meant to be a vaguely cohesive unit that works together and expensive components ranging from cleric restorations, to communal cure wands, to yes, stuff made by the craft guy, are covered at cost for the good of keeping everyone chugging forward at the best rate they can.

[_Ozy_]

Actually, 300 posts in and I'm surprised nobody mentioned that you can actually use Magic capital to pay for crafting costs, which means that you can craft for 1/4 cost and sell for 1/2 cost, though it will take more downtime to earn the capital.

Now, do people think that you should sell to your party members for 1/4th the cost, even if that means you have to earn your Capital the hard way...1 gp at a time... ;)

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Baval wrote:

And quite frankly, its a jerk railroading DM who decides that "because youre a PC no one will buy your dagger any higher than the price you paid to forge it, even if they will buy inferior dagger at twice the price from the blacksmith next door"

The reason you're not going to get full price is because you're not going to take the time to open up your shop and wait for customers. If you did, you wouldn't have the time for adventuring, and you'd be that NPC next door.

A PC selling a sword he looted from the dungeon isn't a buisness set up for customers, he's essentially dealing with someone who's fencing his loot. And usually half price is the best they can get.

[James Risner]

Baval wrote:

Your logic is since the player is just saying "i make the item" he doesnt deserve to profit from it, since hes not doing any actual real life work. Ok, cool. So since youre just saying "i swing the sword" or "i cast the spell" there should be no loot, since youre not killing any actual monsters.

I guess we must agree to disagree. I simply don't think it is fun, fair, or reasonable to attempt to ask profit from creation.

Your trying to equate exploitation with being effective (sword and casting). They are not the same.

Clearly I'm apparently in the minority, so if a table enjoys this. Fine. Just I don't want to be a player at a table doing crafting this way instead of how I've done it (make items at cost.)

[_Ozy_]

James Risner wrote:

Baval wrote:

Your logic is since the player is just saying "i make the item" he doesnt deserve to profit from it, since hes not doing any actual real life work. Ok, cool. So since youre just saying "i swing the sword" or "i cast the spell" there should be no loot, since youre not killing any actual monsters.

I guess we must agree to disagree. I simply don't think it is fun, fair, or reasonable to attempt to ask profit from creation.

Your trying to equate exploitation with being effective (sword and casting). They are not the same.

Clearly I'm apparently in the minority, so if a table enjoys this. Fine. Just I don't want to be a player at a table doing crafting this way instead of how I've done it (make items at cost.)

The issue is that there is often an opportunity cost for the crafter to make something for his party. It means he's not making something for himself. Is that opportunity cost worth nothing?

[James Risner]

_Ozy_ wrote:

The issue is that there is often an opportunity cost for the crafter to make something for his party. It means he's not making something for himself. Is that opportunity cost worth nothing?

Find a new GM. I've had several Characters as crafters.

There is no opportunity cost.

Crafter PC:
"GM, the party and I have 73 items I need to craft. I'm going to take 564 days down time. We are hanging in The Shire while I'm crafting."
GM: "Ok nothing happens, on day 565, a TRex invades The Shire"

If my GM didn't behave this way, I'd find anew GM. Period. I don't have time for frustrations.

[Tarik Blackhands]

_Ozy_ wrote:

The issue is that there is often an opportunity cost for the crafter to make something for his party. It means he's not making something for himself. Is that opportunity cost worth nothing?

I personally consider it worth very little. At the end of the day both items go toward increasing party effectiveness toward completing their goals. Barry the Barbarian isn't going to just walk away after you make him a +2 str belt, he's going to be using that belt to be braining people who want to kill Crafts McDerp and/or do something like save the world with him.

Unless we want to hop down the rabbit hole of "I'm a wizard though! My boosts are better than those pleb not-wizards because prep 9/9 caster master race!" of course...

[_Ozy_]

James Risner wrote:

_Ozy_ wrote:

The issue is that there is often an opportunity cost for the crafter to make something for his party. It means he's not making something for himself. Is that opportunity cost worth nothing?

Find a new GM. I've had several Characters as crafters.

There is no opportunity cost.

Crafter PC:
"GM, the party and I have 73 items I need to craft. I'm going to take 564 days down time. We are hanging in The Shire while I'm crafting."
GM: "Ok nothing happens, on day 565, a TRex invades The Shire"

If my GM didn't behave this way, I'd find anew GM. Period. I don't have time for frustrations.

I find it hard to believe that you think GMs should uniformly allow unlimited downtime when there's, you know, stuff going on in the world.

Granted, a GM that doesn't ever give you even a single day before OMG, bad things happen, is pretty damn annoying. But 'Hey, I know we're in the middle of chasing after some bad guys, but we really want to craft some items, so give us a few months and we'll get back to it' might be a bit unreasonable.

Edit: Adventure paths also tend to add a bit of urgency if the players start to dick around too much.

[_Ozy_]

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

_Ozy_ wrote:

The issue is that there is often an opportunity cost for the crafter to make something for his party. It means he's not making something for himself. Is that opportunity cost worth nothing?

I personally consider it worth very little. At the end of the day both items go toward increasing party effectiveness toward completing their goals. Barry the Barbarian isn't going to just walk away after you make him a +2 str belt, he's going to be using that belt to be braining people who want to kill Crafts McDerp and/or do something like save the world with him.

Unless we want to hop down the rabbit hole of "I'm a wizard though! My boosts are better than those pleb not-wizards because prep 9/9 caster master race!" of course...

Sure, is it worth the wizard forgoing the +2 headband of INT? If +2 belts can be found at ye local magic mart, but the wizard really thinks the party needs a hard to find item, then doesn't it make sense for the barbarian to go pick up the magic item while the wizard makes that special ioun stone, or whatever?

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

If I sense that a group of players are going to run into issues of contention when it comes to crafting, I simply ban the crafting feats altogether. They're a luxury... not a necessity.

[Tarik Blackhands]

_Ozy_ wrote:

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

_Ozy_ wrote:

The issue is that there is often an opportunity cost for the crafter to make something for his party. It means he's not making something for himself. Is that opportunity cost worth nothing?

I personally consider it worth very little. At the end of the day both items go toward increasing party effectiveness toward completing their goals. Barry the Barbarian isn't going to just walk away after you make him a +2 str belt, he's going to be using that belt to be braining people who want to kill Crafts McDerp and/or do something like save the world with him.

Unless we want to hop down the rabbit hole of "I'm a wizard though! My boosts are better than those pleb not-wizards because prep 9/9 caster master race!" of course...

Sure, is it worth the wizard forgoing the +2 headband of INT? If +2 belts can be found at ye local magic mart, but the wizard really thinks the party needs a hard to find item, then doesn't it make sense for the barbarian to go pick up the magic item while the wizard makes that special ioun stone, or whatever?

I don't see how that's an argument in anyone's favor. If there's a ye olde magic mart that means there's no opportunity cost for Crafts to buy himself his own Headband at the place either unless he wants to save some gp (which would be identical to Barry's motivation in the same case, so we're back at square one). I honestly don't mind Crafts taking first dibs on the crafting cycle (he is the guy making it after all) but I find charging extra to be about as much of a jerk move as the party cleric charging a 50% spellcasting service cost for restorations.

[_Ozy_]

I was presenting two different scenarios. 1) time is limited, it's either belt or headband

2) belt is easy to buy, other items are hard to find

Neither of these are unreasonable situations for a crafter.

Finally, as I mentioned above, given enough downtime, a crafter can earn Magic capital and essentially pay 1/4 price if he uses that capital for crafting.

Should the caster be forced to spend the time to earn Magic capital to craft items for his party at 1/4 the cost?

Spellcasting services don't have the same opportunity cost...that is, unless you're forcing the person casting restoration and the like to spend his own money to raise his party members.

[Baval]

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Brain in a Jar wrote:

You see if i invest in a crafting feat. I'm planning on investing my downtime, which could be very limited base on the adventure to make the items i want with it.

So my items take priority. I usually offer a small discount to stop working on my items to work on someone else's item.

I mean there are plenty of entitled players floating around. So when i encounter one of them who get pissy at me wanting to benefit from my investment. I just tell them to go to the market or learn to make it themselves if they want to b+%@~.

Yeah and under that same attitude, I'm sure the party cleric charges full price for raising people from the dead or restoring those negative levels after a wight encounter. Or maybe the bard starts charging a "I diplomized us out of an encounter" fee and the barbarian starts asking for a "I gibbed this guy before he acted saving you all resources" tax. After all, those poor guys are just demanding fair compensation for their character investments and if someone's unappreciative, you can direct them to a bunch of hirelings they can use instead. Obviously.

I dunno, maybe my parties are just a bunch of wierdos where the party is meant to be a vaguely cohesive unit that works together and expensive components ranging from cleric restorations, to communal cure wands, to yes, stuff made by the craft guy, are covered at cost for the good of keeping everyone chugging forward at the best rate they can.

They sure do get compensation for that!

I havent been in a single party where the cleric was expected to pay for other characters resurections. And last I checked, the bard and the barbarian get a share of the loot for their contributions of doing what theyre meant to do.

So by your logic, the crafter earns his share of the loot by crafting. Therefore, he doesnt need to adventure, he already did his share. He gets 25% of the loot, and he stays home and crafts; you go risk your life and come back with his share.

[Baval]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Baval wrote:

And quite frankly, its a jerk railroading DM who decides that "because youre a PC no one will buy your dagger any higher than the price you paid to forge it, even if they will buy inferior dagger at twice the price from the blacksmith next door"

The reason you're not going to get full price is because you're not going to take the time to open up your shop and wait for customers. If you did, you wouldn't have the time for adventuring, and you'd be that NPC next door.

A PC selling a sword he looted from the dungeon isn't a buisness set up for customers, he's essentially dealing with someone who's fencing his loot. And usually half price is the best they can get.

Who says I didnt? I do in fact have a caravan I adventure in just so I can keep choice goods with me that sell well on the road, and I do in fact maintain a fairly large shop manned by my cohort and some of my constructs.

[Tarik Blackhands]

_Ozy_ wrote:

I was presenting two different scenarios. 1) time is limited, it's either belt or headband

2) belt is easy to buy, other items are hard to find

Neither of these are unreasonable situations for a crafter.

Finally, as I mentioned above, given enough downtime, a crafter can earn Magic capital and essentially pay 1/4 price if he uses that capital for crafting.

Should the caster be forced to spend the time to earn Magic capital to craft items for his party at 1/4 the cost?

Spellcasting services don't have the same opportunity cost...that is, unless you're forcing the person casting restoration and the like to spend his own money to raise his party members.

At least in my experience, in a typical adventure where basically all goods are findable but there's not infinite downtime (aka situation 1), crafting generally goes in a loop. Crafts gets first dibs, then the rest of the party makes requests from there, each person getting served till we loop back to Crafts. If the game ends before a finished loop, well such is life.

Sit 2 is something that I've honestly never seen happen. If the GM is being restrictive on certain items why in the blue blazes is he allowing some robe wearing dweeb to just make some in a cave with a box of scraps? I mean, I guess in spirit I can say the hard to find thing/plot critical item(s) take precidence but that honestly just strikes me as a corner case and even then 95% of crafting I've seen is making big 6 items or minor curios like snapleaves.

And I generally don't care for magical capital because I've never seen a GM permissive enough to allow for 1/4 cost crafting of magic items whether on the meta level or allowing enough non-adventuring time for that to happen. Usually people just fork over the 50% crafting cost and wait for time to run its course.

[_Ozy_]

The fact that the big 6 are crafted so frequently is a good reason why they would have generally high availability. Those adventurers eventually retire! High supply.

Obviously Magic capital has the potential to really blow WBL out of the water, but even without it, there are all sorts of activities that can occupy downtime (spell research, copying spells, scribing scrolls, earning gp, ....), so spending it crafting for your party does not have a zero opportunity cost, unlike things like spellcrafting services.

Which was really my only point.

[Tarik Blackhands]

_Ozy_ wrote:

Obviously Magic capital has the potential to really blow WBL out of the water, but even without it, there are all sorts of activities that can occupy downtime (spell research, copying spells, scribing scrolls, earning gp, ....), so spending it crafting for your party does not have a zero opportunity cost, unlike things like spellcrafting services.

Which was really my only point.

Well scribing scrolls is its own crafting but I do see your point. I personally equate the two because I see them as pricey endeavors meant to push the party to greater heights where the effectiveness of the party takes higher priority than the individual. I guess what I'm getting at is restorations and making belts all serve the greater good of the unit and I find it baffling in either case that the cleric or crafter is trying to shave off a few extra gp from his unit if you follow me.

[Torbyne]

Baval wrote:

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Brain in a Jar wrote:

You see if i invest in a crafting feat. I'm planning on investing my downtime, which could be very limited base on the adventure to make the items i want with it.

So my items take priority. I usually offer a small discount to stop working on my items to work on someone else's item.

I mean there are plenty of entitled players floating around. So when i encounter one of them who get pissy at me wanting to benefit from my investment. I just tell them to go to the market or learn to make it themselves if they want to b+%@~.

Yeah and under that same attitude, I'm sure the party cleric charges full price for raising people from the dead or restoring those negative levels after a wight encounter. Or maybe the bard starts charging a "I diplomized us out of an encounter" fee and the barbarian starts asking for a "I gibbed this guy before he acted saving you all resources" tax. After all, those poor guys are just demanding fair compensation for their character investments and if someone's unappreciative, you can direct them to a bunch of hirelings they can use instead. Obviously.

I dunno, maybe my parties are just a bunch of wierdos where the party is meant to be a vaguely cohesive unit that works together and expensive components ranging from cleric restorations, to communal cure wands, to yes, stuff made by the craft guy, are covered at cost for the good of keeping everyone chugging forward at the best rate they can.

They sure do get compensation for that!

I havent been in a single party where the cleric was expected to pay for other characters resurections. And last I checked, the bard and the barbarian get a share of the loot for their contributions of doing what theyre meant to do.

So by your logic, the crafter earns his share of the loot by crafting. Therefore, he doesnt need to adventure, he already did his share. He gets 25% of the loot, and he stays home and crafts; you go risk your life and come back with his share.

Thats a weird arguement to make though, Does the Bard bill the Crafter for each spell cast, Performance made and skill rolled separately but then include basic combat as their party obligation and duly accept loot shares for that one action? What kind of weird adventuring contract would that even look like. The Crafter earns their share of the loot by the same way the rest of the party does, by contributing what they can to the party. do less than that and earn less than a full share.

[Ravingdork]

_Ozy_ wrote:

Actually, 300 posts in and I'm surprised nobody mentioned that you can actually use Magic capital to pay for crafting costs, which means that you can craft for 1/4 cost and sell for 1/2 cost, though it will take more downtime to earn the capital.

Now, do people think that you should sell to your party members for 1/4th the cost, even if that means you have to earn your Capital the hard way...1 gp at a time... ;)

I've hinted at this very thing pretty heavily in several of my posts.

[Baval]

Torbyne wrote:

Baval wrote:

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Brain in a Jar wrote:

You see if i invest in a crafting feat. I'm planning on investing my downtime, which could be very limited base on the adventure to make the items i want with it.

So my items take priority. I usually offer a small discount to stop working on my items to work on someone else's item.

I mean there are plenty of entitled players floating around. So when i encounter one of them who get pissy at me wanting to benefit from my investment. I just tell them to go to the market or learn to make it themselves if they want to b+%@~.

Yeah and under that same attitude, I'm sure the party cleric charges full price for raising people from the dead or restoring those negative levels after a wight encounter. Or maybe the bard starts charging a "I diplomized us out of an encounter" fee and the barbarian starts asking for a "I gibbed this guy before he acted saving you all resources" tax. After all, those poor guys are just demanding fair compensation for their character investments and if someone's unappreciative, you can direct them to a bunch of hirelings they can use instead. Obviously.

I dunno, maybe my parties are just a bunch of wierdos where the party is meant to be a vaguely cohesive unit that works together and expensive components ranging from cleric restorations, to communal cure wands, to yes, stuff made by the craft guy, are covered at cost for the good of keeping everyone chugging forward at the best rate they can.

They sure do get compensation for that!

I havent been in a single party where the cleric was expected to pay for other characters resurections. And last I checked, the bard and the barbarian get a share of the loot for their contributions of doing what theyre meant to do.

So by your logic, the crafter earns his share of the loot by crafting. Therefore, he doesnt need to adventure, he already did his share. He gets 25% of the loot, and he stays home and crafts; you go risk your life and

...

Right ok fair enough, so then why isnt the bard and the barbarian crafting? They dont need feats, craft up some ammo or some daggers. Otherwise theyre not doing their full share, and so they get less of a share.

After all, if the crafter has to fight, why doesnt the fighter have to craft?

And again, the Barbarian and the Bard do have a contract in place, they get a share of the loot. The Crafter is also making the same contract: Ill do what I do best at no cost, and in exchange i get 25% of the loot. Thats only fair. Were not expecting the Barbarian to translate ancient tomes or the Bard to tank hits because thats not what theyre good at, so why expect the crafter to do what he isnt good at?

No, a party member doesnt earn its share by "doing whatever they can for the party", a party member earns its share by contributing to the adventure. If the crafter is there and hes fighting with you hes earning his share, he doesnt also owe you a free axe just because its within his power to make one. You can argue all you want "but he has a better chance of surviving if he gives me what I want" but he has an even better chance of surviving if he just hires and outfits a few mercenaries to do similar work for him and bring back a share of the profits.

[nicholas storm]

Now that adventure paths tell you what level the party is at break points in the AP, we have done away with awarding XP.

In a similar vein, I was thinking treasure could be eliminated by just awarding each character WBL every time the party levels.

I figure limiting each person to 25% of WBL into consumables and giving a slight bonus to WBL for crafting skills - like maybe +10% for 1, +15% for 2, +20% for 3, etc. Of course this advantage only applies to the character with the crafting feat.

What's the opinion on a system like that? No more recording treasure. No more figuring out what bad guys have and how much the pcs get. The GMs work is cut by a significant margin. This whole thread becomes moot. I figure I would do something like this or ABP with the people in this thread.

[Revan]

Baval wrote:

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Brain in a Jar wrote:

You see if i invest in a crafting feat. I'm planning on investing my downtime, which could be very limited base on the adventure to make the items i want with it.

So my items take priority. I usually offer a small discount to stop working on my items to work on someone else's item.

I mean there are plenty of entitled players floating around. So when i encounter one of them who get pissy at me wanting to benefit from my investment. I just tell them to go to the market or learn to make it themselves if they want to b+%@~.

Yeah and under that same attitude, I'm sure the party cleric charges full price for raising people from the dead or restoring those negative levels after a wight encounter. Or maybe the bard starts charging a "I diplomized us out of an encounter" fee and the barbarian starts asking for a "I gibbed this guy before he acted saving you all resources" tax. After all, those poor guys are just demanding fair compensation for their character investments and if someone's unappreciative, you can direct them to a bunch of hirelings they can use instead. Obviously.

I dunno, maybe my parties are just a bunch of wierdos where the party is meant to be a vaguely cohesive unit that works together and expensive components ranging from cleric restorations, to communal cure wands, to yes, stuff made by the craft guy, are covered at cost for the good of keeping everyone chugging forward at the best rate they can.

They sure do get compensation for that!

I havent been in a single party where the cleric was expected to pay for other characters resurections.

Exactly--the party covers the cost of the material component--*not* the charge listed for spellcasting services which goes above and beyond that.

Look, folks, I'm an actor. Getting proper compensation for what I do is a nightmare, so I completely understand every argument being made here about economics and not being taken advantage of. And I agree with them--in the real world. Yes, 100%, if I, the real person, made a kickass ring for my real life friend, it would be only proper for him to cover the cost of materials *and* pay for my labor. But I simply don't think that the analogy holds up well to the game world with its oddly functioning economy. And even to the extent that it *does* hold up, I feel like it disrupts party dynamics to no significant benefit.

[Baval]

Revan wrote:

Baval wrote:

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Brain in a Jar wrote:

You see if i invest in a crafting feat. I'm planning on investing my downtime, which could be very limited base on the adventure to make the items i want with it.

So my items take priority. I usually offer a small discount to stop working on my items to work on someone else's item.

I mean there are plenty of entitled players floating around. So when i encounter one of them who get pissy at me wanting to benefit from my investment. I just tell them to go to the market or learn to make it themselves if they want to b+%@~.

Yeah and under that same attitude, I'm sure the party cleric charges full price for raising people from the dead or restoring those negative levels after a wight encounter. Or maybe the bard starts charging a "I diplomized us out of an encounter" fee and the barbarian starts asking for a "I gibbed this guy before he acted saving you all resources" tax. After all, those poor guys are just demanding fair compensation for their character investments and if someone's unappreciative, you can direct them to a bunch of hirelings they can use instead. Obviously.

I dunno, maybe my parties are just a bunch of wierdos where the party is meant to be a vaguely cohesive unit that works together and expensive components ranging from cleric restorations, to communal cure wands, to yes, stuff made by the craft guy, are covered at cost for the good of keeping everyone chugging forward at the best rate they can.

They sure do get compensation for that!

I havent been in a single party where the cleric was expected to pay for other characters resurections.

Exactly--the party covers the cost of the material component--*not* the charge listed for spellcasting services which goes above and beyond that.

Look, folks, I'm an actor. Getting proper compensation for what I do is a nightmare, so I completely understand every argument being made here about economics and not being taken advantage of. And...

OK, sure. Ill agree with that. The cleric can charge me for spellcasting services, and ill charge him for items. Lets see who needs who first. (quick reminder, the most expensive spellcasting service you can buy, a 9th level spell from a 20th level caster, costs 1800 gold. Ill toss him 90k and use him as a wand)

There is a very significant benefit to giving the crafter your gold, namely that he can use it to craft better gear so he can contribute better in combat. Because no matter how much you might want to say "feats arent even that big of a deal" the fact is they are, or everyone would just be a crafter all the time.

[Matthew Downie]

nicholas storm wrote:

I was thinking treasure could be eliminated by just awarding each character WBL every time the party levels.

I figure limiting each person to 25% of WBL into consumables and giving a slight bonus to WBL for crafting skills - like maybe +10% for 1, +15% for 2, +20% for 3, etc. Of course this advantage only applies to the character with the crafting feat.

What's the opinion on a system like that? No more recording treasure. No more figuring out what bad guys have and how much the pcs get. The GMs work is cut by a significant margin. This whole thread becomes moot. I figure I would do something like this or ABP with the people in this thread.

From my experience of trying something very similar to this:

(1) The details of how consumables should work are pretty confusing. Does the WBL spent on them come back later?
(2) Finding cool magic items is a part of the game that a lot of players enjoy. You might want to look into finding other kinds of 'loot' that they can have fun with - spending gold on building a castle is something most Pathfinder characters would never do because magic items are more important.

[Redelia]

Matthew Downie wrote:

nicholas storm wrote:

I was thinking treasure could be eliminated by just awarding each character WBL every time the party levels.

I figure limiting each person to 25% of WBL into consumables and giving a slight bonus to WBL for crafting skills - like maybe +10% for 1, +15% for 2, +20% for 3, etc. Of course this advantage only applies to the character with the crafting feat.

What's the opinion on a system like that? No more recording treasure. No more figuring out what bad guys have and how much the pcs get. The GMs work is cut by a significant margin. This whole thread becomes moot. I figure I would do something like this or ABP with the people in this thread.

From my experience of trying something very similar to this:

(1) The details of how consumables should work are pretty confusing. Does the WBL spent on them come back later?
(2) Finding cool magic items is a part of the game that a lot of players enjoy. You might want to look into finding other kinds of 'loot' that they can have fun with - spending gold on building a castle is something most Pathfinder characters would never do because magic items are more important.

I do something like this, and I think it works pretty well. Yes, money spent on consumables will be replaced on the next level up, because you get to be back at WBL then. I do allow players to pick up a really cool item if they find one. They can choose to have wealth for 1 level lower plus a really cool item they have found if they find something in the AP if that would put them over WBL. Some GM flexibility is required for this, but I think it works.

However, I integrate crafting feats differently than the proposal above. If anyone in the party has the requirements to craft an item, it counts as half value in the comparison to WBL.

[Matthew Downie]

Redelia wrote:

Yes, money spent on consumables will be replaced on the next level up, because you get to be back at WBL then.

Hope the players never try to take advantage of the ability to use 'free' scrolls of maximum level spells all time...

[Torbyne]

Baval wrote:

Right ok fair enough, so then why isnt the bard and the barbarian crafting? They dont need feats, craft up some ammo or some daggers. Otherwise theyre not doing their full share, and so they get less of a share.

After all, if the crafter has to fight, why doesnt the fighter have to craft?

And again, the Barbarian and the Bard do have a contract in place, they get a share of the loot. The Crafter is also making the same contract: Ill do what I do best at no cost, and in exchange i get 25% of the loot. Thats only fair. Were not expecting the Barbarian to translate ancient tomes or the Bard to tank hits because thats not what theyre good at, so why expect the crafter to do what he isnt good at?

No, a party member doesnt earn its share by "doing whatever they can for the party", a party member earns its share by contributing to the adventure. If the crafter is there and hes fighting with you hes earning his share, he doesnt also owe you a free axe just because its within his power to make one. You can argue all you want "but he has a better chance of surviving if he gives me what I want" but he has an even better chance of surviving if he just hires and outfits a few mercenaries to do similar work for him and bring back a share of the profits.

The starting point for me based on my own experience (and while i have been playing for a long time i recognize that is a drop in the bucket compared to the collective table experience of the forums) is that the party splits loot equally among all PCs; Cohorts, hirelings and NPCs do not normally get shares and instead are either along for their own story reasons or charge flat fees for services. The shares that PCs get is due to the characters providing their services to the party.

The argument that Crafter chose one feat over another and the party should pay Crafter to use that feat is a slippery slope. Why not have Cleric charge per spell, domain or channeling that someone else benefits from. Sure Barbarian doesnt have to invest as much in game time towards power attacking but choosing and using that feat also saved Crafter's life, if Crafter can charge for down time spent for Barbarian than Barbarian can charge Crafter for killing the thing before it horrendously disfigured Crafter. I mean, its only an abstract -4 HP out of Crafter's 20 but in the setting that could be a partially melted face that Crafter was saved from. Barbarian spent years (yes Years, two to be exact) learning how to control their rage and directly put themselves in harms way to protect Crafter, how can Crafter not pay them for that service?

When Barbarian joined the party at level 1 they could only attack once a round and didn't even pounce! At level 6 should they get a larger share of party wealth for the times when they attack twice? At level 11 should they just get all loot for going all RAGE-LANCE-POUNCE, COME AND GET ME on everything? They couldnt do that when they started so those skills must cost extra just as using time intensive feats are. The barbarian is after all putting themselves in much greater danger than the Crafter who doesnt even front line when they get into combat.

So every level each player should make the argument about what their character can bring to the table and renegotiate what percentage of party loot they get based on their capabilities at that level compared to what other characters can do and the going market rate, this is what i am seeing.

[Saldiven]

James Risner wrote:

_Ozy_ wrote:

The issue is that there is often an opportunity cost for the crafter to make something for his party. It means he's not making something for himself. Is that opportunity cost worth nothing?

Find a new GM. I've had several Characters as crafters.

There is no opportunity cost.

Crafter PC:
"GM, the party and I have 73 items I need to craft. I'm going to take 564 days down time. We are hanging in The Shire while I'm crafting."
GM: "Ok nothing happens, on day 565, a TRex invades The Shire"

If my GM didn't behave this way, I'd find anew GM. Period. I don't have time for frustrations.

I have never in my 30 years of RPG playing had a GM that let the campaign languish for unlimited amounts of time so the players could do something like craft items. The game world doesn't stop moving, and the villains do not stop plotting, just because the players want to make a magic sword.

That kind of setting would completely destroy any immersion I might feel for the game world and instead make it feel like an MMO to me.

[thejeff]

Saldiven wrote:

James Risner wrote:

_Ozy_ wrote:

The issue is that there is often an opportunity cost for the crafter to make something for his party. It means he's not making something for himself. Is that opportunity cost worth nothing?

Find a new GM. I've had several Characters as crafters.

There is no opportunity cost.

Crafter PC:
"GM, the party and I have 73 items I need to craft. I'm going to take 564 days down time. We are hanging in The Shire while I'm crafting."
GM: "Ok nothing happens, on day 565, a TRex invades The Shire"

If my GM didn't behave this way, I'd find anew GM. Period. I don't have time for frustrations.

I have never in my 30 years of RPG playing had a GM that let the campaign languish for unlimited amounts of time so the players could do something like craft items. The game world doesn't stop moving, and the villains do not stop plotting, just because the players want to make a magic sword.

That kind of setting would completely destroy any immersion I might feel for the game world and instead make it feel like an MMO to me.

I've seen it, though it's not usually "on day 565, a TRex invades The Shire", it's "On day 565 we go out looking for trouble again."

The basic sandbox game contract - the GM doesn't force adventures on you, you pick and choose what you want to deal with. If you want to sit around for a year and a half, you can. You might miss some cool opportunities, but there will be others. You won't be attacked and forced into action.

[Entryhazard]

Brain in a Jar wrote:

When i play a caster with crafting feats here is how it goes.

Fighter: "Hey Wizard could you make me a Belt of Strength(+2)?

Wizard: "Sure that will cost you 3,000 Gold.

Fighter: "That's a ripoff. I'm not paying you an extra 1,000 gold.

Wizard: "Okay fine. I'll spend my downtime making myself items with my crafting feat. I really want a Headband so maybe if i get time later I'll make your belt...unless I'm making something else."

Fighter: "What about my Belt?"

Wizard: "Go buy one for 4,000 Gold in the market or make it yourself."

Fighter: "..."

You see if i invest in a crafting feat. I'm planning on investing my downtime, which could be very limited base on the adventure to make the items i want with it.

So my items take priority. I usually offer a small discount to stop working on my items to work on someone else's item.

I mean there are plenty of entitled players floating around. So when i encounter one of them who get pissy at me wanting to benefit from my investment. I just tell them to go to the market or learn to make it themselves if they want to b~*%%.

It will be really funny when your wizard gets trounced by a monster the fighter didn't manage to kill before it got to him because he didn't have enough Strength

[James Risner]

Saldiven wrote:

I have never in my 30 years of RPG playing had a GM that let the campaign languish for unlimited amounts of time so the players could do something like craft items.

Funny. I have never in my 32 years of RPG playing had a GM who succeeded in railroading a party into what they wanted instead of responding to what the players want. This does include many times where I performed GM duties. However, I've only played RotRL and Shattered Star and never GM any AP. All my other games (PC or GM) have been home brew/sandbox.

One actual example: I had an elaborate plan created, had some half dragon monsters destroy a village. I had hoped it would call the party to action. Instead, they ignored it with "let someone else handle that". They were positive a NPC in a larger town was a bad guy. He wasn't, but because they felt he was, he was now. I had to pivot the scheme from someone else to him, make him the head bad guy. Why? Because when they discovered they were "RIGHT AFTER ALL" it would make for more fun. As a GM you are the fun provider and can be the fun police.

In other words, don't be the fun police as a GM when the PC want to make items after taking Craft Item feats. Let them make any number they wish, then give them nibbles of quests and see which ones they tug.

[Tarik Blackhands]

James Risner wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

I have never in my 30 years of RPG playing had a GM that let the campaign languish for unlimited amounts of time so the players could do something like craft items.

Funny. I have never in my 32 years of RPG playing had a GM who succeeded in railroading a party into what they wanted instead of responding to what the players want. This does include many times where I performed GM duties. However, I've only played RotRL and Shattered Star and never GM any AP. All my other games (PC or GM) have been home brew/sandbox.

One actual example: I had an elaborate plan created, had some half dragon monsters destroy a village. I had hoped it would call the party to action. Instead, they ignored it with "let someone else handle that". They were positive a NPC in a larger town was a bad guy. He wasn't, but because they felt he was, he was now. I had to pivot the scheme from someone else to him, make him the head bad guy. Why? Because when they discovered they were "RIGHT AFTER ALL" it would make for more fun. As a GM you are the fun provider and can be the fun police.

In other words, don't be the fun police as a GM when the PC want to make items after taking Craft Item feats. Let them make any number they wish, then give them nibbles of quests and see which ones they tug.

So basically the GM is the players' slave? That's frankly a load. If a player's expectation of me as GM is to ask them "How high?" when they tell me to jump, they can frankly take their dice and go home. I have no obligation to satisfy their every minute whim or twist the game world around to make them 100% right in all things. I'm here to run a fun game and I'm included in that fun. If they can't reach a compromise, they can walk and I won't shed a tear.

[Ravingdork]

Entryhazard wrote:

Brain in a Jar wrote:

When i play a caster with crafting feats here is how it goes.

Fighter: "Hey Wizard could you make me a Belt of Strength(+2)?

Wizard: "Sure that will cost you 3,000 Gold.

Fighter: "That's a ripoff. I'm not paying you an extra 1,000 gold.

Wizard: "Okay fine. I'll spend my downtime making myself items with my crafting feat. I really want a Headband so maybe if i get time later I'll make your belt...unless I'm making something else."

Fighter: "What about my Belt?"

Wizard: "Go buy one for 4,000 Gold in the market or make it yourself."

Fighter: "..."

You see if i invest in a crafting feat. I'm planning on investing my downtime, which could be very limited base on the adventure to make the items i want with it.

So my items take priority. I usually offer a small discount to stop working on my items to work on someone else's item.

I mean there are plenty of entitled players floating around. So when i encounter one of them who get pissy at me wanting to benefit from my investment. I just tell them to go to the market or learn to make it themselves if they want to b~*%%.

It will be really funny when your wizard gets trounced by a monster the fighter didn't manage to kill before it got to him because he didn't have enough Strength

And that would be the fault of the fighter, not the wizard. (Or the GM if the encounter wasn't appropriate.) It's the fighter's responsibility to make sure he is properly equipped. Though he can ask the wizard for help in this area, and the party might well benefit from such cooperation*, it is not the responsibility of the wizard to shower toys upon the fighter.

You might have had a valid point if the wizard was the only source of magical goods for the fighter, but he's clearly not.

* It is just as probable that the party would benefit just as much or more if said wizard spent that same time making toys for himself.

[thejeff]

James Risner wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

I have never in my 30 years of RPG playing had a GM that let the campaign languish for unlimited amounts of time so the players could do something like craft items.

Funny. I have never in my 32 years of RPG playing had a GM who succeeded in railroading a party into what they wanted instead of responding to what the players want. This does include many times where I performed GM duties. However, I've only played RotRL and Shattered Star and never GM any AP. All my other games (PC or GM) have been home brew/sandbox.

One actual example: I had an elaborate plan created, had some half dragon monsters destroy a village. I had hoped it would call the party to action. Instead, they ignored it with "let someone else handle that". They were positive a NPC in a larger town was a bad guy. He wasn't, but because they felt he was, he was now. I had to pivot the scheme from someone else to him, make him the head bad guy. Why? Because when they discovered they were "RIGHT AFTER ALL" it would make for more fun. As a GM you are the fun provider and can be the fun police.

In other words, don't be the fun police as a GM when the PC want to make items after taking Craft Item feats. Let them make any number they wish, then give them nibbles of quests and see which ones they tug.

Needs to be some kind of middle ground.

I have played plenty of games where we chased red herrings or down blind alleys and we turned out to be wasting our time. Kind of a bummer in the short run, but it makes actually figuring out what's going on more fun.

Not having downtime to craft everything you want (or worse if you're using the downtime rules) is part of the balance that keeps those abilities from completely breaking the game. Along with not being able to make a profit from them and the GM adjusting loot to keep the group near WBL.

[thejeff]

Ravingdork wrote:

Entryhazard wrote:

Brain in a Jar wrote:

When i play a caster with crafting feats here is how it goes.

Fighter: "Hey Wizard could you make me a Belt of Strength(+2)?

Wizard: "Sure that will cost you 3,000 Gold.

Fighter: "That's a ripoff. I'm not paying you an extra 1,000 gold.

Wizard: "Okay fine. I'll spend my downtime making myself items with my crafting feat. I really want a Headband so maybe if i get time later I'll make your belt...unless I'm making something else."

Fighter: "What about my Belt?"

Wizard: "Go buy one for 4,000 Gold in the market or make it yourself."

Fighter: "..."

You see if i invest in a crafting feat. I'm planning on investing my downtime, which could be very limited base on the adventure to make the items i want with it.

So my items take priority. I usually offer a small discount to stop working on my items to work on someone else's item.

I mean there are plenty of entitled players floating around. So when i encounter one of them who get pissy at me wanting to benefit from my investment. I just tell them to go to the market or learn to make it themselves if they want to b~*%%.

It will be really funny when your wizard gets trounced by a monster the fighter didn't manage to kill before it got to him because he didn't have enough Strength

And that would be the fault of the fighter, not the wizard. (Or the GM if the encounter wasn't appropriate.)

You might have had a valid point if the wizard was the only source of magical goods for the fighter, but he's clearly not.

Well, encounter balance gets tricky when one PC has double the gear of the others.

Which is actually where you wind up if the wizard makes most of the magic and charges extra. :)

If I read the rules & guidelines right, the fighter actually would wind up with less gear if he buys the discounted stuff from the PC wizard rather than the store, since the GM should adjust loot.

[James Risner]

thejeff wrote:

I have played plenty of games where we chased red herrings or down blind alleys and we turned out to be wasting our time. Kind of a bummer in the short run, but it makes actually figuring out what's going on more fun.

You can still do that. I guess my real point is that your players don't always think what you think would be fun is fun. So either you walk away, they walk away, or you compromise and build something new between GM/PC.

Also, the "we don't have time" justification is false. Say you have time to make one 16,000 gp item. It is the same to make it for your self or make it for another PC and charge them full price, then buy the 16,000 gp you want for half + the profit. Same effect, except you annoy the other players at your table.

[Envall]

How do characters even know the worth of magic items?
Do crafters even know when they start making it?

[Forgotten Knight]

Torbyne wrote:

Baval wrote:

Right ok fair enough, so then why isnt the bard and the barbarian crafting? They dont need feats, craft up some ammo or some daggers. Otherwise theyre not doing their full share, and so they get less of a share.

After all, if the crafter has to fight, why doesnt the fighter have to craft?

And again, the Barbarian and the Bard do have a contract in place, they get a share of the loot. The Crafter is also making the same contract: Ill do what I do best at no cost, and in exchange i get 25% of the loot. Thats only fair. Were not expecting the Barbarian to translate ancient tomes or the Bard to tank hits because thats not what theyre good at, so why expect the crafter to do what he isnt good at?

No, a party member doesnt earn its share by "doing whatever they can for the party", a party member earns its share by contributing to the adventure. If the crafter is there and hes fighting with you hes earning his share, he doesnt also owe you a free axe just because its within his power to make one. You can argue all you want "but he has a better chance of surviving if he gives me what I want" but he has an even better chance of surviving if he just hires and outfits a few mercenaries to do similar work for him and bring back a share of the profits.

The starting point for me based on my own experience (and while i have been playing for a long time i recognize that is a drop in the bucket compared to the collective table experience of the forums) is that the party splits loot equally among all PCs; Cohorts, hirelings and NPCs do not normally get shares and instead are either along for their own story reasons or charge flat fees for services. The shares that PCs get is due to the characters providing their services to the party.

The argument that Crafter chose one feat over another and the party should pay Crafter to use that feat is a slippery slope. Why not have Cleric charge per spell, domain or channeling that someone else benefits from. Sure Barbarian doesnt have to invest as...

I see a lot of comparison to what the crafter is doing in his down time to what the rest of the party is doing in the adventuring time. I feel like people are looking over any contributions said crafter is making to the group when everyone is out adventuring.

I will use a character of mine as an example.

I am playing a Shaman of the Heavens. I do some healing, some combat control, defensive spells and some offensive spells. I have occasionally been know to actually attack things with my weapon. It does not happen often, but it does.

Now using what you say, if I charge my party members for crafting while I am in downtime, they have every right to charge me for services during combat. Does that mean I can also charge them for every time I have to save them in said fight? (It happens quite a lot) It becomes a vicious cycle.

Personally I do not charge anyone anything to craft for them. However I will only craft them things my character feel they need, not what they want. But mostly I just craft for myself because 90% of the treasure we get is no real thing I want. Lots of weapons and armor.

I personally just think you should do what you feel your character would do, if that is charge your party, charge your party. If you want to make things for free, make things for free. But no matter what you do, just accept whatever consequences come from it.

[thejeff]

Envall wrote:

How do characters even know the worth of magic items?

Do crafters even know when they start making it?

Damned if I know, but they do. Just like, across the world, all the merchants know to charge the same prices and buy items for the same cost.

Largely because it's all as much a metagame balance construct as anything.

[thejeff]

Forgotten Knight wrote:

I personally just think you should do what you feel your character would do, if that is charge your party, charge your party. If you want to make things for free, make things for free. But no matter what you do, just accept whatever consequences come from it.

Just remember that "I'm just doing what my character would do" is a prime cry of game-disrupting jerks everywhere. It's also, of course, what good roleplayers do, but somehow without pissing off the rest of the group.

[Torbyne]

Forgotten Knight wrote:

Now using what you say, if I charge my party members for crafting while I am in downtime, they have every right to charge me for services during combat. Does that mean I can also charge them for every time I have to save them in said fight? (It happens quite a lot) It becomes a vicious cycle.... I personally just think you should do what you feel your character would do, if that is charge your party, charge your party. If you want to make things for free, make things for free. But no matter what you do, just accept whatever consequences come from it.

This is exactly what i am trying to say, charging other players for your character's actions opens up them doing the same to you and then the party is adversarial to each other.

[whew]

Envall wrote:

How do characters even know the worth of magic items?

Do crafters even know when they start making it?

Knowledge of the required recipes is built into the item-crafting feats. Otherwise, there would need to be rules for buying a formula for each wondrous item. If learning-the-formula is assumed to be part of the current cost, then there should be a discount for making multiple copies of the same item.