Watching the new reimagining of Wizard of Oz via the TV series "Emerald City" at the same time as planning for a Pathfinder Campaign hit me at the same time and I have been inspired.
In the show, magic vs technology is emphasized and I thought of creating a campaign that employs this.
I am not keen on creating a sci-fi campaign as such as is provided with the Numera campaign setting but instead am looking for a technology level of around the turn of the 20th century or just before.
- Group of humans rebel against society with reasons of anti magic and pro technology concerns
- Said group rises up but is defeated
- They then migrate (sail off to an island, exodus to a new land, etc) away from said society
- Without magic curbing** their growth, they begin to become more industrious and science focused
- The party will encounter this society as an outsider and have adventures in this new land
- There will be a mix of real world and fantastical world, steam punk-esque with clockwork analoges to sci-fi concepts such as cybernetics, androids, etc
- There will be divine magic in this campaign area because there will be some Gods that either oppose magic for which become patron gods to this new order
**This idea is that science is driven by invention and invention is driven by need. If the needs of the populace are satisfied by magic then there is no drive to change and technology is stunted
This area will contain the humans, gnomes (who would be one of the natives of their new land but share similar industrious goals), various monster types they encounter and divergance of politics to form different sub-groups within the new area. Good humans and bad humans etc.
Guns will be a key part of this world and will perform an interesting challenge since players can eventually start using guns (if they want) but will for a good amount of time in the start of the campaign have to fight against them. Also, magic items will be sparse because whilst previous civilizations that lived in this area may have existed and treasures will be buried with them - there is no "new magic item" generation. Furthermore since using magic will be seen as a crime, these would only be available on a black market basis.
I do intend it to be balanced, not everyone will have guns - there will still be value in honorable combat with swords but its unlikely there will be much more melee than that. Not like i expect to have dire flails, warhammers, mauls, nets, katanas etc - just swords or guns.
Add to this an underground society (exists before the party join) that is rebelling against science with magic, using it in secret and various takes on common tropes or preconceptions and I think you have a good idea for a campaign world.
Magic vs Technology... will the players side with their belief that magic is not an issue or welcome the conflicting views aspousing technology.
Is this a worthwhile idea for a campaign? Any thoughts? Any worthy reading materials (especially PF books) worth taking in to make it better?
Has anyone done something like this before?
(P.S. I have heard balance issues with guns is a big concern in such campaigns. There is a story reason I want guns included but i dont want to tip the game into disarray, I don't intend the players to immediately begin using them and I can moderate their use with rules on usage (so perhaps guns are possible for all but there are moral/legal/social reasons why not everyone will use them) - I welcome advice)
In the early 1900s (which us what I'm assuming you mean by "turn of the century" not early 2000s) there was a disparity of technology due to infrastructural issues. Cities enjoyed phones/telegraph, indoor outhouses, and primitive automobiles. Trains were common. In rural areas, horse and buggy or just horse was more common. Phones were sparse and trains ran only in certain areas cross country. Guns were more common everywhere however.
Also I believe that was an Era marked by the social class known as robber barons. Elite greedy upper crust industrialist capitalists that set the stage for how America would be run right up to today.
Have there been civil wars, a second invasion or is there some native opposition or something? Repeating guns don't come out of nowhere, there needs to be some reason for people to spend time and money developing them.
What's the argument for arcane magic? Divine magic heals but arcane magic's main shtick is killing things or making it easier to kill things. Flying and teleporting are eventual civilian niches I guess but they're not easy (assuming that useful flight is longer than 10 minutes). Is it freedom of knowledge, reaction to persecution against natural-born sorcerers, old secret traditions (or new secret traditions installed by foreign spies) or just young people going 'this is cool!' and trying stuff out?
Magic is just so intrinsically powerful, there needs to be a reason for technology to emerge. Maybe it's getting rarer, in a low magic campaign where very few people have the gift. Most of them are sorcerers or oracles. (INherit it) Although strange historians of esoteric ways may study it. Perhaps wordcasting works better now since something happened to the magic.
So first off, yes, I'm actually running modules adapted to a world where Technology has risen to compete with a declining magic world. Here are a few of the Paizo resources that would be helpful:
Savage Technologist Barbarian: Most of the stuff in the Technology Guide implements new rules from what I saw, but this archetype happens to work fully in the current system.
Tinkerer Alchemist: You're looking at this for the level 14 ability - Clockwork Mimicries: Make a clockwork version of a single Wondrous Item.
Experimenter Vigilante:Your vigilante is now a good enough chemist to make a mutagen and simply "know stuff" as the Bard class feature.
Experimental Gunsmith Gnome only, but this lets you enhance your gun with some higher tech.
Finally, as my own houseruled class, I'd offer up to you The Futurist, which is a class that is meant to represent somewhere around the level of tech you seem to be espousing.
Another thought. Back in the 'old country', or wherever the PCs come from might there be Eberron-style magitech? Elemental-powered airships, lightning rail lines for trains, glass towers and magical artillery.
Is there trade back and forth or will the PCs stand out like sore thumbs?
A bunch of the problems with pre-industrial society simply aren't there in PF. Real shortages of material goods like clothing, common starvation, enduring disability from diseases. So what is science solving in this instance? Or are those things problems back in the magic lands?
First, I am thinking closer to 1800 than 1900 thinking about it. I like the forward thinking, industrious and explorative elements of 1700-1800 society. Guns that don't repeat sounds balanced, a long reload vs a big amount of damage. No cars, no electricity, no phones, telepgrah perhaps, trains yes.. So steam punk is really the most likely mould I am drawn to.
A question that seems to have come up often is "Why is there no magic, there has to be a good reason"
The reason was explained but I may have not gone into enough detail. Magic is deemed as an enemy to science, there would be stories about science solving something magic had a good handle on dealing with and there being resistance by science to embrace it. Furthermore, it could be more moral than that where dangers or misuse of magic (such as some disasters caused by magic, serial killer using magic etc) could lead to similar mindset.
I can flesh this out properly later on.
Overall, magic is seen as "bad" by the group who fight against it, said group still feel that way when they are forced into leaving and continue to feel that way as they innovate along lines of science rather than magic.
Hope that makes sense? A good premise to base a game on?
(bearing in mind that players will not be solidly in this place, they will dip back into the "real world" from time to time - this is like a vacation into a new world)
Also, I plan to use 1st Edition "World Building Guide" for world creation, I find that aside from some of the mecahnical bits (filling races based on 1ed MM) it is very competent about creating a world. I would welcome any alternative methods?
As far as magic vs. technology goes, have you ever heard of an old video game called Arcanum? It has a lot of this.
The idea in Arcanum as to why technology started winning out over magic is...
1) EVERYONE can use a gun, but only the gifted can use magic. Sure, mages might be powerful, but one mage isn't necessarily going to be worth a hundred dudes with rifles.
2) Magic and technology don't mix well. For instance, there's this one quest in Arcanum where a mage wants you to blow up a steam engine that's been built inside a church because the steam engine's energy is actually preventing him from casting spells properly. Basically, magic makes technology go haywire, and technology weakens and dampens magic.
3) Finally, wars simply swung in favor of the guys using guns. The magic users of the world eventually had to admit defeat, and while there were some still around in Arcanum's industrial areas, they were often treated as second-class citizens.
I think points #1 and #2 are most relevant to your idea. Point #2 necessitates conflict between magic and technology, and point #1 is a reason why technology won. I think that's a good source to draw inspiration from.
You could make highly industrialized areas weaken magic. Give casters a -2 penalty to a lot of things (like overcoming spell resistance or succeeding on Concentration checks), and perhaps have areas that are churning out TONS of technological energy (like coal factories and steam generators) reduce the duration and variable effects of spells by 25% or 50%. This would make magic less dependable in cities, but far more useful in the wilds.
Likewise, maybe you could use this to ban 9th level casters in this region while allowing 6th level ones. The most powerful spells simply don't work in this technological atmosphere, etc, but 6th level spells and below are somehow able to persist. I'm not saying you SHOULD do this, but limiting casters to 6th level means your casters are less likely to overshadow the other players.
Also, why not have Divine Spellcasting and Arcane Spellcasting both just become Spellcasting? You don't need deities in a setting like this I feel - just have it such that the Warpriest and Cleric believe their powers come from a deity. Whether or not that's true can be left a secret. Indeed, what if the technological fanatics and the magic fanatics pay homage to the same deity, but simply translate how that deity wants things to be differently?
Basically, just because most settings use Greek-style gods doesn't mean you have to. Let your religions be more... Well, let them be a matter of faith. There's no OBVIOUS proof that the gods exist: magic exists, but does it have to be separated into Divine and Arcane spellcasting? Does a preacher need to have levels of Cleric, or could that preacher instead be a gunslinger with a lot of charm? Can't you have faith in something without that deity speaking to you personally or personally granting you spells? (Real-world evidence suggests "Yes.")
Finally, as my own houseruled class, I'd offer up to you The Futurist, which is a class that is meant to represent somewhere around the level of tech you seem to be espousing.
Good to have some free Futurist stuff out there. ;)
I'd need an extremely good reason to believe technology vs. magic. Magic is a force, wizardry is a science, and products thereof are technology.
The state you've described is unstable. You have two major areas with completely different tech. Whoever combines the two first can take the known world. This is likely to be the side the PCs are on, if not the PCs themselves.
As Inlaa said, Arcanum is a great resource for a campaign like this. And it was just an awesome game on its own. They explained the opposition as Magic relies on and enhances an innate instability of existance, maybe for just a few seconds gravity doesnt work or energy swells up out of nothing, while technology needs extremely precise and dependable rules to function. Places with lots of technology re-inforce those rules and make magic fail as it cant convince reality to forget how it works while rampant magic makes the laws governing science too flexible to make repeatable effects.
As to a previous comment you made, "Guns that don't repeat sounds balanced, a long reload vs a big amount of damage." This is NOT how fire arms work in Pathfinder. Targeting touch AC makes hits very, very easy against humanoids and things that rely on massive piles of natural armor but the damage is actually really low compared to say, a composite bow. And the reload times are jonky anyways with things like class features to speed them up and the rapid reload feat. Unless you are handing out free DEX to damage for all guns they will be weak. Also as a D20-ism is DR. Firearms will be almost useless against a lot of enemies without magic to back them up or some big free damage booster. I would say in a tech society that only has guns that dont repeat, everyone is using composite bows. make them as big and fancy as you'd like but firearms will forever play catch up to bows for number of shots fired and power of those shots.
Basically unless the PCs build from the get go to use firearms, guns will never be useful to the party. Once they get them they will have to start multiclassing and wait five more levels to get a stat to damage with them before they can really consider dropping their Sling in favor of a gun.
So, might i suggest that you look at guns being common in this land, advanced firearms such as revolvers and rifles being present and consider pushing classes that get that DEX to damage ability?
Also, again as a D20-ism, magic and technology can work perfectly well along side each other. The tech only guy has to wait until level 5 to get any boosts to their damage. the Magic guy who bought a gun can get a +1 pistol before level 5 and have a distinct advantage. Heck, the guy who just doesnt hate magic can have Weapon Training, Weapon Specialization and a +1 enchanted pistol that equals the damage but has more accuracy than the just tech guy.
Consider how you want to handle that as the PCs will likely realize early on that the society's abhorrence of magic can be exploited to make the PCs more powerful than the locals.
Firearms benefit from deadly aim, as well. It also helps that semi/auto weapons basically have free rapid shot that stacks with the feat for a -6 penalty. Pretty deadly in a low level setting, but does become useless at higher levels unless you're a Gunslinger.
I'm running a similar style campaign, where the rise of technology has caused a lot of changes (hence that custom Futurist class). Just in case any of my players are reading, I'll include spoiler tags for the reasoning for my campaign.
Spoiler:
The Tycon world is a world where the time of magic was simply passing by. The prior age of Tycon was characterized by a four way war between the Drow, Duergar, Elves, and Dwarves, with tthe Duergar taking an early advantage via the discovery and use of ki based abilities; the Gray Disciple Monk was a game changer for the balance of that world. In order to survive, the Drow prayed to and received help from Lolth, which led to the first Drow spellcasters, which were monks that multiclassed with Sanguine Sorcerers. Elves and Dwarves were blessed with the Sage and Empyreal bloodlines, respectively, and magic began as the dominant force in the world.
That was a millenia ago, however. Just as the power of more life-based magic (i.e. ki) once waned, so did the power of magic. The rise of alchemists and futurists portended a new god entering the pantheon, the God Of Numbers, a deity that represented the rise of physics and engineering in the world. In addition, Mystra, a former Magic goddess, is reborn as a Goddess of Chemistry and Biology. The gods are forced to choose sides, with some that were either more inclined towards building things (Laduger, Moradin) or simply more forward thinking (Gorum, Nerull) allying with the God of Numbers and Mystra as other gods (Hextor, Boccob, etc.) actively worked to keep magic as the dominant power. To this end, Hextor launched a plot to maintain the power level of magic by permanently setting up portals to devillish and cherubic realms to keep magic flowing into the world). When Heironious tries to stop them, Hextor murders him and set into the events of the initial campaign for the world, where the PCs are agents of the gods of change trying to stop the permanent portals in order to send the world further down the path of technology.
I'd also echo the idea that mass production is an excellent reason why magic would eventually wane in use as compared to technology.
Which character classes are you allowing? I'd also cosign the idea of not allowing full casters if this is a magic-poor world. Other ideas would be to modify the alchemist to allow them to create alchemical items is spell slots; every 75 gp in the cost of an item is one spell "level" in this system. The philosophy is to make alchemy as close to Chemistry and less "magic performed on yourself" as possible.
Finally, wouldn't you want to allow more than just a sword? A quarterstaff, nunchuku, or even brass knuckles work in 2017, so I don't see why they wouldn't work in this environment. Bows, especially, would still be used for stealth purposes, I would imagine.
Steam-powered railroad trains also imply steam-powered ships (paddlewheels and steam-powered screw propellers) and steam-powered land vehicles (tractors and tanks). The SciFi20 design rules should help with the design of the vehicles.
For Steam Punk ideas, there is an old D&D 3rd edition book called "Legends & Lairs: Sorcery & Steam". Has some REALLY cool steampunk items. Such as an electrified sword with a battery in the handle, jet packs, Steam Craft Power Armor.
But besides just throwing in random items the biggest thing to consider is how the player characters themselves are effected. For example, I LOVE playing full casters. How much would my wizard/cleric/sorcerer be effected, would I be nerfed, would there be a trade off? I say this because purposefully nerfing every class that uses magic (which is at least half of them) really limits character options and play style. You specifically said "magic will be seen as a crime", so that means everyone from the wizard casing Gate to a Paladin using Detect Evil (which IS magic) would be seen as a criminal. You might want to tone that down. Unless you WANT a party made up of nothing but Fighters and Rogues.
For Steam Punk ideas, there is an old D&D 3rd edition book called "Legends & Lairs: Sorcery & Steam". Has some REALLY cool steampunk items. Such as an electrified sword with a battery in the handle, jet packs, Steam Craft Power Armor.
But besides just throwing in random items the biggest thing to consider is how the player characters themselves are effected. For example, I LOVE playing full casters. How much would my wizard/cleric/sorcerer be effected, would I be nerfed, would there be a trade off? I say this because purposefully nerfing every class that uses magic (which is at least half of them) really limits character options and play style. You specifically said "magic will be seen as a crime", so that means everyone from the wizard casing Gate to a Paladin using Detect Evil (which IS magic) would be seen as a criminal. You might want to tone that down. Unless you WANT a party made up of nothing but Fighters and Rogues.
Depends on whether the law enforcement is exempt from this. If no NPCs have magical protection, the campaign is practically asking for an enchantment specialist to take over the country.
