I'm wondering if I've missed any trade offs I should be aware of.
The major points seem that Arcane trickster trades base attack bonus progression and three rogue talents for better will saves and better sneak attack progression.
What are your thoughts?
If you wanted to focus more on being a melee combatant than a caster who sneak attacks.
When I played an Eldritch Scoundrel I used the casting mostly to buff my character and give me versatility. I could also cast a spell (can't remember the name) that effectively gave me full sneak attack progression (with the sneak attack dice I already had).
So, if you want to be a caster who sneak attacks with spells go Arcane Trickster.
If you want to be more of a classic rogue, who now has magic to augment your abilities I think straight eldritch scoundrel works better.
Since Arcane Trickster would be plain better as a caster with sneak attack if you'd started as a rogue/wizard it'd feel bad to me to use it to advance Eldritch Scoundrel. YMMV.
If you wanted to focus more on being a melee combatant than a caster who sneak attacks.
When I played an Eldritch Scoundrel I used the casting mostly to buff my character and give me versatility. I could also cast a spell (can't remember the name) that effectively gave me full sneak attack progression (with the sneak attack dice I already had).
So, if you want to be a caster who sneak attacks with spells go Arcane Trickster.
If you want to be more of a classic rogue, who now has magic to augment your abilities I think straight eldritch scoundrel works better.
Is the loss of the three rogue talents the real loss for melee efficiency? Admittedly I haven't gotten above level 8, but I can't imagine BAB reduced by three being make or break.
Since Arcane Trickster would be plain better as a caster with sneak attack if you'd started as a rogue/wizard it'd feel bad to me to use it to advance Eldritch Scoundrel. YMMV.
Is the higher level spell casting the only reason for this?
Since Arcane Trickster would be plain better as a caster with sneak attack if you'd started as a rogue/wizard it'd feel bad to me to use it to advance Eldritch Scoundrel. YMMV.Is the higher level spell casting the only reason for this?
Higher level spells, more spells/day. Arcane Trickster technically gives the same benefits to both classes but in the one case it's advancing 6-level casting, in the other it's advancing 9-level casting.
I can't imagine BAB reduced by three being make or break.
Don't underestimate what 3 points will do, especially on a class like the Rogue that already has problems with its attack bonus to begin with. There's a reason Power Attack is virtually unheard of on Rogue builds, after all. Some extra sneak attack dice aren't going to make up for this, it's going to seriously eat into your damage output... and if you're not good in melee there's actually not a whole lot of point to being an Eldritch Scoundrel. Its entire niche is getting 6-level arcane spellcasting with the Unchained Rogue's finesse training and debilitating injuries. If you can't reliably land those hits, you may as well have gone the Rogue/Wizard route for superior spellcasting.
Now, it's not impossible to do Eldritch Scoundrel/Arcane Trickster, but you'll be significantly behind the single-class Eldritch Scoundrel in combat and significantly behind the Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster in spellcasting. Think about what you want to be doing in combat. If you want to be in the thick of things launching melee sneak attacks, stay single-class Eldritch Scoundrel for the best combat presence. If you want to be casting spells, go with the Wizard/Rogue/Arcane Trickster approach (using Accomplished Sneak Attacker). Also, if you don't have access to the Unchained Rogue then just completely forget about the Eldritch Scoundrel.
Is the loss of the three rogue talents the real loss for melee efficiency? Admittedly I haven't gotten above level 8, but I can't imagine BAB reduced by three being make or break.If you wanted to focus more on being a melee combatant than a caster who sneak attacks.
When I played an Eldritch Scoundrel I used the casting mostly to buff my character and give me versatility. I could also cast a spell (can't remember the name) that effectively gave me full sneak attack progression (with the sneak attack dice I already had).
So, if you want to be a caster who sneak attacks with spells go Arcane Trickster.
If you want to be more of a classic rogue, who now has magic to augment your abilities I think straight eldritch scoundrel works better.
3 points of BAB and 3 talents is actually pretty big.
Not to mention goodies you can get while being an eldritch scoundrel like Dual Debilitation, which is super awesome.
And as others pointed out, if you really wanted to be a caster with sneak attack you're just better off going wizard 4/rogue 1 (with the feat for extra sneak attack) and then into arcane trickster.
So if going for a combat sneak attacker which is better?
Wizard/Urogue -> trickster
or
eldritch scoundrel chained rogue
So if going for a combat sneak attacker which is better?
Wizard/Urogue -> trickster
or
eldritch scoundrel chained rogue
My opinion straight eldritch scoundrel is better. The rogue talents, debilitating injury, BAB, etc are much more important.
Arcane trickster basically only works if you want to focus on sneak attacking with spells. Of course, the ruling that you can only get sneak attack once per spell also makes it kind of difficult to be much of a damage dealer.
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So if going for a combat sneak attacker which is better?
Wizard/Urogue -> trickster
or
eldritch scoundrel chained rogueMy opinion straight eldritch scoundrel is better. The rogue talents, debilitating injury, BAB, etc are much more important.
Arcane trickster basically only works if you want to focus on sneak attacking with spells. Of course, the ruling that you can only get sneak attack once per spell also makes it kind of difficult to be much of a damage dealer.
I feel like the real allure is 9th level spellcasting potential with your roguey skills and disarming traps with mage hand ON TOP OF the ability to cast a sneak attack fireball.
And if you're focusing solely on blasting with Arcane Trickster, why not take Sorcerer instead? Get the Orc bloodline, and if you want to cast with INT crossblood it with the Sage bloodline. Or do orc/draconic. As a gnome Pyromaniac with 10 levels of Arcane Trickster, 1 level of rogue and 3 levels of Crossblooded Tattooed Sorcerer (Orc/Draconic) with Spell Focus and Spell Specialization and Accomplished Sneak Attacker, using a Lesser Maximize Metamagic Rod and using the Intensified and Empowered Metamagic feats, we're looking at a fireball that...
1. Is cast as caster level 17 and deals 17d6 damage,
2. Is also Maximized, so it's dealing 17x6=102 damage,
3. And Empowered, so 102x1.5=151,
4. Also adds 34 damage for being CL 17 (Orc/Draconic), so 185 damage,
5. And also deals Sneak Attack damage because you're using Surprise Spells (assuming you're casting on a group of flatfooted foes - presumably you have greater invisibility up?), adding another 7d6 damage to each target, so 185+7d6,
6. For a total of 192-221 damage.
Is it game-breaking? Not really. You can get way better damage on an evocation-focused pure caster, and the 7d6 is just a small extra blip in the huge damage you're already dealing with that fireball. But it is respectable to drop that AoE on a whole group of enemies as a level 14 character. And you can use Surprise Spells as long as the enemy is flat-footed, so it potentially could be used multiple times a day.
Also, that Fireball cast can be made Silent and Still with Tricky Spells, so if you've got Greater Invisibility up they'll have virtually no idea where the Fireball came from. And then you can fly away and pretend nothing happened.
Far from the most powerful build in the game, but Arcane Trickster definitely has its merits both as a blaster and as a sneaky jerk.
So if going for a combat sneak attacker which is better?
Wizard/Urogue -> trickster
or
eldritch scoundrel chained rogueMy opinion straight eldritch scoundrel is better. The rogue talents, debilitating injury, BAB, etc are much more important.
Arcane trickster basically only works if you want to focus on sneak attacking with spells. Of course, the ruling that you can only get sneak attack once per spell also makes it kind of difficult to be much of a damage dealer.
Chained rogue doesn't get debilitating injury or free weapon finesse or dex to damage.
Is the chained eldritch scoundrel still the better option with this?| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So if going for a combat sneak attacker which is better?
Wizard/Urogue -> trickster
or
eldritch scoundrel chained rogueMy opinion straight eldritch scoundrel is better. The rogue talents, debilitating injury, BAB, etc are much more important.
Arcane trickster basically only works if you want to focus on sneak attacking with spells. Of course, the ruling that you can only get sneak attack once per spell also makes it kind of difficult to be much of a damage dealer.
Chained rogue doesn't get debilitating injury or free weapon finesse or dex to damage.
Is the chained eldritch scoundrel still the better option with this?
Unchained Eldritch Scoundrel is pretty rad. Chained Eldritch Scoundrel is considerably less rad, IMO.
Chained Eldritch Scoundrel at least gets 6th level spellcasting while staying medium BAB, so you're playing a rogue with some handy tools. That's fine. It's just not as awesome as also getting free DEX to damage and debilitating injury.
If we're using Chained rules, I'd go with the Arcane Trickster any day. If we're using Unchained rules, I'd go Eldritch Scoundrel if I wanted to be more of a bruiser / roguish character and I'd go with Arcane Tricksters if I wanted to be a mage that dabbled in thievery.
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Why do you go up to Wizard 4? With Accomplished Sneak Attacker you could go Wiz3/Rog1.
Because if you go the Wiz3/Rog1 qualification route you delay your access to 2nd level spells, which makes the character harder to play at the 3rd level.
It has to do with level sequence. You can either do Wizard/Wizard/Wizard/Wizard/Rogue and take Accomplished Sneak Attacker at 5th level, or Wizard/Wizard/Rogue/Wizard taking Accomplished Sneak Attacker 3rd level. If you're starting at 4th level or beyond then taking the fastest qualification is a no-brainer, but if you're starting at 3rd or below it might be worth a one-level qualification delay to avoid a valley of suck.
I feel like the real allure is 9th level spellcasting potential with your roguey skills and disarming traps with mage hand ON TOP OF the ability to cast a sneak attack fireball.
I think Claxon was talking about the comparison between a straight Eldritch Scoundrel and an Eldritch Scoundrel into Arcane Trickster. Wizard/Rogue into Arcane Trickster is a distinct build that plays completely differently and shouldn't be directly compared to an Eldritch Scoundrel.
Chained rogue doesn't get debilitating injury or free weapon finesse or dex to damage.
Is the chained eldritch scoundrel still the better option with this?
If you're stuck with the chained Rogue, you're best to pass on the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype. It doesn't really have any niche to call its own, and you're better off using an archetype that adds roguish abilities to a spellcasting class. Use something like the Sandman Bard instead.
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So if going for a combat sneak attacker which is better?
Wizard/Urogue -> trickster
or
eldritch scoundrel chained rogueMy opinion straight eldritch scoundrel is better. The rogue talents, debilitating injury, BAB, etc are much more important.
Arcane trickster basically only works if you want to focus on sneak attacking with spells. Of course, the ruling that you can only get sneak attack once per spell also makes it kind of difficult to be much of a damage dealer.
Chained rogue doesn't get debilitating injury or free weapon finesse or dex to damage.
Is the chained eldritch scoundrel still the better option with this?
Why would you play a core rogue eldritch scoundrel?
Wait...why would play a core rogue?
So if going for a combat sneak attacker which is better?
Wizard/Urogue -> trickster
or
eldritch scoundrel chained rogueMy opinion straight eldritch scoundrel is better. The rogue talents, debilitating injury, BAB, etc are much more important.
Arcane trickster basically only works if you want to focus on sneak attacking with spells. Of course, the ruling that you can only get sneak attack once per spell also makes it kind of difficult to be much of a damage dealer.
Chained rogue doesn't get debilitating injury or free weapon finesse or dex to damage.
Is the chained eldritch scoundrel still the better option with this?Unchained Eldritch Scoundrel is pretty rad. Chained Eldritch Scoundrel is considerably less rad, IMO.
Chained Eldritch Scoundrel at least gets 6th level spellcasting while staying medium BAB, so you're playing a rogue with some handy tools. That's fine. It's just not as awesome as also getting free DEX to damage and debilitating injury.
If we're using Chained rules, I'd go with the Arcane Trickster any day. If we're using Unchained rules, I'd go Eldritch Scoundrel if I wanted to be more of a bruiser / roguish character and I'd go with Arcane Tricksters if I wanted to be a mage that dabbled in thievery.
Agree 100%
So if going for a combat sneak attacker which is better?
Wizard/Urogue -> trickster
or
eldritch scoundrel chained rogueMy opinion straight eldritch scoundrel is better. The rogue talents, debilitating injury, BAB, etc are much more important.
Arcane trickster basically only works if you want to focus on sneak attacking with spells. Of course, the ruling that you can only get sneak attack once per spell also makes it kind of difficult to be much of a damage dealer.
Chained rogue doesn't get debilitating injury or free weapon finesse or dex to damage.
Is the chained eldritch scoundrel still the better option with this?Why would you play a core rogue eldritch scoundrel?
Wait...why would play a core rogue?
Stubborn defiance.
Though a core Eldritch Scoundrel at least lets you get spellcasting to make up for being a Rogue. 8 6 4 skill points/level + trapfinding + spellcasting + some rogue talents... It's doable. It's just not nearly as cool as the unchained version.
I'd argue that as gross as the core rogue is, the eldritch scoundrel would make it something that could contribute, albeit people would probably ask why you aren't playing a bard instead.
Arcane Trickster still way better.
EDIT: Oh right, FOUR skill points. Ugh. Yeah, no, Bard please, if we're chained. Bard every day. Or Arcane Trickster.
Or Eldritch Scoundrel if the character concept REALLY suits it but otherwise just Bard please.
Unless we're talking Unchained. Then Eldritch Scoundrel is cool again. But specifically for chained, Bard or Arcane Trickster just way outclasses it.
Why would you play a core rogue eldritch scoundrel?
Wait...why would play a core rogue?
I think PFS limited Eldritch Scoundrel to chained rogue only.
So that would be a reason why you might want to play chained rogue.
I just don't play PFS. I agree with a lot of restrictions they make. Probably 98% of them. But the 2% I don't agree with I think are just very ridiculous restrictions, such as no eldritch scoundrel unchained rogue.
Yup, Ascalphus nailed it. In PFS chained is the only eldritch scoundrel. So I was curious how people viewed the comparison with that limitation.
Yup, Ascalphus nailed it. In PFS chained is the only eldritch scoundrel. So I was curious how people viewed the comparison with that limitation.
In that situation my honest thought is you CAN make the Chained Eldritch Scoundrel work, but when someone else can be an Unchained Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster it might feel underwhelming.
The pros of the Eldritch Scoundrel is it maintains 3/4 BAB while getting 6th level spells and sneak attack. But its SAD come slowly, and its skill points are reduced to 4, and you get less Rogue Talents. You get a lot of flexibility from your spellcasting, which you can use on self-buffs to make yourself a better fighter, and I could certainly see the merits of, say, using Beast Shape II to turn into a Dire Lion and getting 3 attacks with pounce and +2d6 sneak attack damage on each attack, or being able to eventually cast Greater Invisibility on yourself as a ranged rogue to get sneak attacks off. The utility spells give you is impressive.
But I can't imagine the chained Eldritch Scoundrel comparing well to a Bard of the same level (who gets some of the same spells like Heroism at a lower level), or to an Unchained Rogue/Arcane Trickster as far as combat utility goes. The Arcane Trickster loses some BAB for a lot more spellcasting power and a lot more sneak attack dice. The Arcane Trickster PRC even has the same number of skill points as the Eldritch Scoundrel despite being able to progress 9th level spellcasting.
As previously said: if you've got a character concept in mind that makes the Eldritch Scoundrel work, go for it. It's a solid enough setup on its own, chained or unchained. Just don't be surprised if the Chained Eldritch Scoundrel feels a little lackluster next to some of the other options around you. Also consider getting DEX to damage somehow, even if it has to be through the Agile enchantment.