Your fighting style emulates the disciplined nature of the kytons, with passion and pain held tightly in chains.
Prerequisite(s): Wis 13, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Knowledge (planes) 3 ranks, ki pool class feature.
Benefit(s): When using this style, you treat spiked chains as if they had the monk special weapon feature. Additionally, if you have Stunning Fist, you can spend 1 point from your ki pool to make a Stunning Fist attack with your spiked chain instead of an unarmed strike. This still costs a use of Stunning Fist as normal.
You blend arms and martial arts, using weapons with the same ease as unarmed strikes.
Prerequisite(s): Weapon Focus with the chosen melee weapon; base attack bonus +1 or monk level 1st.
Benefit(s): Choose one weapon from the monk fighter weapon group. While using this style and wielding the chosen weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike, as if attacks with the weapon were unarmed attacks.
Special: A 5th-level monk or character with the weapon training (monk) class feature can use Ascetic Style with any monk weapon, in addition to the chosen melee weapon.
The question I have is after reaching 5th level would I be able to apply Ascetic style to my spiked chain?
No, because Kyton Style's bonus only applies while using the Style, and it's not in the Monk Fighter weapon group to begin with.
Should have added that I would be using Master of Many Styles as an archetype if that matters.
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Actually, I think it does work, but only for the MoMS, only at level 5, and only if you take Weapon Focus in a different weapon.
The spiked chain is only a monk weapon when you are using Kyton Style, but if you are a 5th level MoMS using Kyton Style and you then enter Ascetic Style, you are able to use Ascetic Style with all monk weapons. Since you are still in Kyton Style, this includes the spiked chain.
You cannot however have spiked weapon as your "chosen weapon" you use to qualify for the style because it's not normally in the monk weapon group.
That's kinda what I was thinking as a follow up would the special caveat of Ascetic Style allow any monk weapon for the later feats in the chain?
A spiked chain is a flail and never a weapon from the monk fighter weapon group.
The monk ability they reference means you can flurry with it. Thats about it.
Edit: To clarify the enormous body of conversation on the style feats in WMH (mostly regarding slings and startoss style) indicates that the if you have weapon training X, you can use this with any X weapon refers to weapons in X weapon group. Gaining the monk trait wont add spiked chains to the monk weapon group.
I think it does apply to the entire style chain.
Nope. Ascetic Form and Ascetic Strike only mention "chosen weapon", and don't have a special section like Ascetic Style does.
So basically you ignored the part where i pointed out the body of conversation regarding the style feats that came out of WMH.
Does anyone have a link to the post where the guy who wrote the startoss chain talks about how its intended to work with slings because they're in the thrown weapon group but aren't actually a thrown weapon?
I honestly CBA to dig it up.
So based on something you CBA to dig up your stance is being that if you have weapon training (thrown) and don't pick a sling as your chosen weapon, you can use slings with Startoss Style but not any single handed thrown weapons that might come out but haven't been already listed in the fighter thrown weapon group?
If you have to bring up theoretical weapons that have yet to be designed you don't have much of an argument. edit: Beyond which they've already shown that they're willing to update the weapons lists via blogpost.
My willingness to dig to the center of a thread ive seen referenced a couple times is pretty linked to the fact that I dont care if his gm allows it or not. I don't think its the sort of thing that is RAI based on the conversation surrounding another feat chain in the same book.
I also have to take into consideration that its pretty likely, given the number of style feats that use the same language as ascetic style, that adding "fighter weapon group" or even "weapon group" would push several of the pages into an awkward fit, requiring like 2 or 3 lines on another page, screwing up the margins of the sections, and potentially adding to page count (and therefore cost) of the book when the use of conversational english + context (especially given that post which i haven't bothered bookmarking or starring for the sake of winning internet arguments that may or may not occur) can say the same thing without cost or layout redesign.
I mean, ask your gm, i doubt it will break the game, but RAI from the startoss author and the linguistic context surrounding every style feat in that book says no.
If you have to bring up theoretical weapons that have yet to be designed you don't have much of an argument.You are the one seeming angrily claiming that your interpretation of someone else's RAI supersedes the RAW.
No i'm the one claiming that applying that interpretation of monk weapon is a misinterpretation of the raw, given the context of every other style feat in the book.
No, they aren't CLEARLY being all inclusive, they're clearly specifying weapon groups once you realize sling is included as being affected by startoss style, despite being a projectile weapon, not a thrown one.
Here is the author post on the subject, talking about how they wanted to be sure startoss + slipslinger work together.
Special: In addition to the chosen weapon, a character with this feat and the weapon training (thrown) class feature can use Startoss Style with any thrown weapons that she wields in one hand.
Projectile Weapons: Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling.
If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.
You can either read it as referring to weapon groups, where it works as the author said it was intended to and startoss applies to slings, and page space constraints required a more conversational and contextual reading or you can refer to it the way you're interpreting it, where it works for spiked chains and doesn't for slings.
The use of thrown/monk/heavy blade/light blade refers back to the weapon training requirements in the special section. If it doesn't how do you determine what is a heavy blade, no weapons have that trait?
Edit: BEYOND THAT. It takes more than the monk special weapon feature to be a monk weapon. Example: Urumi is a monk weapon, it is in the monk weapon group. Urumi does not have the monk weapon feature, you cannot flurry with it.
Other weapons of that weapon group is longer than any thrown/heavy blade/etc Thats my entire point regarding space considerations.
Go through every one of those styles and add weapon group, or fighter weapon group to it and you're going to add a page to the book and probably screw up the margins that allowed them to keep sections separated.
Edit: and im not sure what you mean by spiked chain and throwing. The entire throwing/startoss/sling point was a demonstration that the intent was for them to reference weapon groups. As sling is in the thrown weapon group, but is a projectile weapon and still works with the feat by author intent.
If it references weapon groups (Which i think ive provided a decent amount of evidence it does and an explanation as to why it might not be more explicit) it wont work with kyton style, because despite gaining a monk weapon trait, it doesn't move the spiked chain from the flail weapon group to the monk weapon group.
ALL OF THAT SAID: I highly doubt it will break the game if your dm allows it. spiked chain is pretty balls, even with increased damage die.
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With the Startoss feats it seems pretty clear that references to 'thrown weapons' are referring back to the 'fighter thrown weapon' group in the main feat.
That this meaning of 'thrown weapons' includes items which are markedly different from those fitting the description of 'thrown weapons' in the equipment list text about different kinds of weapons naturally produces some confusion.
The same thing applies to 'monk weapons'... except that there seems to be much greater overlap between 'weapons with the monk quality' and 'weapons in the monk fighter weapon group'. An argument could be made that the two might be intended to be synonymous, and differences in the lists just represent updates over time.
So your assertion is that none of the style chains with the special that let you use other weapons than the chosen one actually work because they don't copy that special into every single feat of the style chain?
Ascetic Style's special section says you can use Ascetic Style with other weapons then the chosen weapon. Sadly, AForm and AStrike reference not 'any weapon used with Ascetic Style', but specifically "the chosen melee weapom" (for AForm) or "the chosen weapon" (for AStrike). You only ever chose one weapon, and that one has to be both melee and from the monk fighter weapon group.
@Ryan Freire: CRB pg. 145 (weapon special features): "Monk: A monk weapon can be used by a monk to perform a flurry of blows (see Chapter 3)." So according to the CRB, the monk special feature is indeed exactly what makes a weapon a "monk weapon". If we apply that to Ascetic Style's special section, then it must work with Kyton Style affected Spiked Chain.
The odd thing is that all the other feats here do the same thing. Which would mean that none of them are functional anyways and we might as well ignore the entire special part of all the weapon styles.
Why? The styles themself still function with other weapons, just not the followup feats. So shuriken thrown by a lvl7 Monk with Ascetic Style penetrate cold iron DR (and deal 1d8 damage), while a character with all three startoss feats get +6 on damage rolls with any "thrown weapons that she wields in one hand".
It is cutely dishonest how you edited your angry snark about throwing spiked chains with Startoss Style out.
I didn't edit out anything, all my edits are marked with Edit: so as to not cause confusion about them being added after the initial post. I'm sorry if you misread something and fired off a heated reply but I didn't say anything about throwing spiked chains. The comparison was how slings are in a thrown weapon group, and intended to work with startoss style but weren't strictly thrown weapons.
Its a piece of evidence that supports "thrown" "monk" "heavy blades" as shorthand for the weapon group.
Funny thing is, once you accept that the language is conversational english rather than legalistic english all these feats work fine and in line with how the author said he intended.
It is cutely dishonest how you edited your angry snark about throwing spiked chains with Startoss Style out.I didn't edit out anything, all my edits are marked with Edit: so as to not cause confusion about them being added after the initial post. I'm sorry if you misread something and fired off a heated reply but I didn't say anything about throwing spiked chains. The comparison was how slings are in a thrown weapon group, and intended to work with startoss style but weren't strictly thrown weapons.
Its a piece of evidence that supports "thrown" "monk" "heavy blades" as shorthand for the weapon group.
Funny thing is, once you accept that the language is conversational english rather than legalistic english all these feats work fine and in line with how the author said he intended.
Keep in mind Kyton Style clearly calls for it to be a Monk weapon not a Weapon Training (monk) weapon. It grants it a special quality that is there the overlap is coming from.
And as to the belief that the bonus riders from the first feats don't allow additional choices to be used on the later feats should we make and FAQ post for that one?
Also the author of Ascetic Style has said that the line "effects that augment US" in the first feat is supposed to be attached to the talk of feats. You do not get to use the unarmed strike damage (of a monk 4 levels lower than your character level) without the second feat and you do not get the DR piercing until the third feat.
I'm getting sick of people repeating that same nonsense. What the author intended is completely irrelevant, the feats are as they are printed. The PDT overrules explicit author intend more than once, proving this. also, you would get DR penetration either with the second feat, or not at all (it's not exactly clear). Ascetic Strike, the third feat, only gives the scaling damage of minus four levels.
The author also claimed that his notes said "feats and class features". Then he made a post on his blog where he called the feat "Aesthetic Style". In that post, he gave the "feats only" text, and claimed that was "exactly what Feral Combat Training was changed to post errata", which is simply wrong because Ascetic Style works with more feats than FCT does. But, to quote the author, "My original notes don't matter very much, though, because if Ascetic Style is changed it'll be the Paizo team that'll decide how its done."
So yes, until the feat is changed, you very much do get the damage penetration and the option to use the scaling unarmed damage instead of the weapon's base damage.
Also, I just gave an example of how the special line can be beneficial.
It is cutely dishonest how you edited your angry snark about throwing spiked chains with Startoss Style out.I didn't edit out anything, all my edits are marked with Edit: so as to not cause confusion about them being added after the initial post. I'm sorry if you misread something and fired off a heated reply but I didn't say anything about throwing spiked chains. The comparison was how slings are in a thrown weapon group, and intended to work with startoss style but weren't strictly thrown weapons.
Its a piece of evidence that supports "thrown" "monk" "heavy blades" as shorthand for the weapon group.
Funny thing is, once you accept that the language is conversational english rather than legalistic english all these feats work fine and in line with how the author said he intended.
Keep in mind Kyton Style clearly calls for it to be a Monk weapon not a Weapon Training (monk) weapon. It grants it a special quality that is there the overlap is coming from.
And as to the belief that the bonus riders from the first feats don't allow additional choices to be used on the later feats should we make and FAQ post for that one?
Yes and all the other styles in the same book specify "heavy blade" "polearm" "close weapon" Given that absolutely none of these terms have any in game rule OUTSIDE of fighter weapon groups why does ascetic style have a broader base where simply having a weapon trait count?
Don't know but it does, that is literally all we have to work off of until we get clarification.
Don't know but it does, that is literally all we have to work off of until we get clarification.
If you have one interpretation backed up by designer intent as well that makes the odd feat chain out work, whose only consequence is preventing it from working with one other style, and one interpretation that breaks every other feat chain in the book in order to let two independently designed style chains work together why in gods name would you cling to the interpretation that breaks everything?
@Ryan Freire: I wrote this before, you either didn't see it or chose to ignore it, so I'm repating myself: CRB pg. 145 (weapon special features) says "Monk: A monk weapon can be used by a monk to perform a flurry of blows (see Chapter 3)." So according to the CRB, the monk special feature is indeed exactly what makes a weapon a "monk weapon".
The other styles may be (and the way I see it are) different, but claiming that Ascetic Style goes by weapon group goes against the CRB.
No, actually, what makes a Monk weapon a Monk weapon is a weapon that Monks are noted as being trained in. There's actually quite a few weapons out there that have the 'Monk' tag on them, that Monks have no weapon proficiency with.
Guess where they end up almost all going? The Fighter Monk Weapon group.
Which, oddly, has vastly more weapons than the actual Monk does.
Don't know but it does, that is literally all we have to work off of until we get clarification.If you have one interpretation backed up by designer intent as well that makes the odd feat chain out work, whose only consequence is preventing it from working with one other style, and one interpretation that breaks every other feat chain in the book in order to let two independently designed style chains work together why in gods name would you cling to the interpretation that breaks everything?
How would it break the other styles? It merely adds a different qualifier to one feat over the others the way we are reading it. Though now as a point of clarification I need to find out if there are any weapons on the Monk weapon group that aren't monk weapons or any Monk weapons that aren't in the weapon group.
No, actually, what makes a Monk weapon a Monk weapon is a weapon that Monks are noted as being trained in. There's actually quite a few weapons out there that have the 'Monk' tag on them, that Monks have no weapon proficiency with.
Dude, did you even read what I said? What a monk weapon is is literally explained right in the CRB. The section I quoted is even referred in the index as "monk weapons".
If you have one interpretation backed up by designer intent as well that makes the odd feat chain out work, whose only consequence is preventing it from working with one other style
Not only, this interpretation also does some funny things with Startoss Style regarding thrown weapons that aren't in the thrown fighter weapon group too.
and one interpretation that breaks every other feat chain in the book in order to let two independently designed style chains work together why in gods name would you cling to the interpretation that breaks everything?
"break every other feat" is a bit of a hyperbole. Regardless of whether or not you agree with it (for the record I think you're correct), whether or not you allow Ascetic Style to work more broadly doesn't really have any bearing on the other feats.
Well now we do have a conundrum depending on interpretation. Though not a massive issue I have noticed that we have 3 weapons that depending on how it's read may or may not work.
Knuckle Axes are a monk weapon but not in the weapon group (monk)
Tri-point double edged swords and Urumi are in the group but not monk weapons.
Wow, so much anger.
Monk weapons are weapons with the Monk special feature. Should work.
Take WF (Unarmed Strike) and choose that for ascetic style. A bit silly, perhaps, but seems to workout by the numbers. Get that weapon focus bonus on your chain, as it is a feat that is augmenting your unarmed strikes.
Unarmed strike happens to be in the monk weapon group. Spiked chain is not and kyton style doesn't change that.
There is no heavy blade, or light blade weapon tag. Literally the only rulebook effect that checks heavy blade or light blade is fighter weapon groups. Even when they go into the swashbuckler stuff it all references back to a certain type of weapon training.
There is also no Axe, Hammer, or Flail weapon trait, it all references the fighter weapon group those weapons are a part of.
Also, theres really no anger. Saying Gosh why so angry over and over again wont change that. A bit of frustration at the fact that people are pretty eager to toss out the context surrounding the player companion series and this book in particular but its not enough to actually be angry over. After all it isn't as though its going to break the spiked chain.
Yep no anger here more curiosity. We now have the following:
1. Ascetic style's special line refers to the Monk Weapon Group only. Ramifications: We have a single weapon that a Monk might use that cannot be used with the style, and MoMS cannot use unconventional interactions.
Net effect: Slim to none.
2. Ascetic Style's special line refers to the Monk special property only.
Ramifications: Knuckle Axe now usable with style MoMS can now use style interactions to use unconventional weapons as they might arise. Two weapons in the Weapon Group now only work if they are the chosen weapon.
Net Effect: Still slim to none.
Overall I can see it getting ruled either way and it's not particularly crippling either way.
Next question does anyone know if there is anyway to treat a weapon as if it were in a weapon group?
Except again, context, you're posting the definition of a specific weapon trait. Its in the section describing weapon traits.
Ascetic style is in a book surrounded by style feats, every last one of them linked to some sort of "weapon training" be it weapon type or "swashbuckler" in one instance, with additional benefits if you happen to have that weapon training or in the case of ascetic style, opening it up to monks since its only like 2 archetypes that even reference weapon training.
Basically its trying to take language from rules section A: regarding weapon traits that change the rules of the weapon, and applying them to rules section B: where its describing how weapons are grouped.
And being honest, writing like this:
Monk: A weapon with the monk weapon trait can be used by a monk to perform a flurry of blows
makes most editors eyelid twitch. Yeah its the most precise language, it reads like crap though. Even "A weapon with the monk trait" is needlessly wordy and to keep language uniform it would be "a weapon with the reach trait, a weapon with the trip trait, down the line. More lines, more screwing with formatting, potentially more page count and cost.
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Your fighting style emulates the disciplined nature of the kytons, with passion and pain held tightly in chains.
Prerequisite(s): Wis 13, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Knowledge (planes) 3 ranks, ki pool class feature.
Benefit(s): When using this style, you treat spiked chains as if they had the monk special weapon feature. Additionally, if you have Stunning Fist, you can spend 1 point from your ki pool to make a Stunning Fist attack with your spiked chain instead of an unarmed strike. This still costs a use of Stunning Fist as normal.
You blend arms and martial arts, using weapons with the same ease as unarmed strikes.
Prerequisite(s): Weapon Focus with the chosen melee weapon; base attack bonus +1 or monk level 1st.
Benefit(s): Choose one weapon from the monk fighter weapon group. While using this style and wielding the chosen weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike, as if attacks with the weapon were unarmed attacks.
Special: A 5th-level monk or character with the weapon training (monk) class feature can use Ascetic Style with any monk weapon, in addition to the chosen melee weapon.
The question I have is after reaching 5th level would I be able to apply Ascetic style to my spiked chain?
You can also get this to work with a normal or unchained monk - Ascetic Style + Weapon Focus + Martial Focus + Kyton Style + Weapon Style Mastery.
I don't think these would work together, as Spiked Chain falls into the Flails weapon group and not Monk. Even though you gave it the Monk quality, that doesn't mean it is a part of the Monk group.
What exactly are you trying to accomplish? Doing everything through your Spiked Chain(including augments)?