Anvils as improvised weapons....?

[Murdock Mudeater]

Equipment Tricks

Okay, so Equipment Trick (Anvil). Aside from the other trick options, it allows a 50+ lb anvil to be used as an improvised or regular weapon, whichever is more beneficial. That said, I can't seem to find where is says the damage this would do as an improvised weapon.

Suggestions?

[Sangerine]

Archives of Nethys wrote:

If the item would normally be considered an improvised weapon, you can treat it as either a normal weapon or an improvised weapon, depending on which is more beneficial for you.

Think you may have misread.

Though if I had to guess a weapon to represent it, would go heavy mace or greatclub.

[Claxon]

Probably the same an any improvised two-handed weapon (due to weight).

Which would probably be a simple two-handed weapon, such as the greatclub.

[SmiloDan]

I once tied a rope to an anvil, lassoed a golem with the other end of the rope, and pushed the anvil off a cliff...

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

I'm pretty sure I recall that the 2nd Edition Tome of Magic had "a heavy object like an anvil appears over someone's head and falls on them" as one of the results of a Wild Magic wild surge. I think it did something like 2d10 or 3d10 damage.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Sangerine wrote:

Archives of Nethys wrote:

If the item would normally be considered an improvised weapon, you can treat it as either a normal weapon or an improvised weapon, depending on which is more beneficial for you.

Think you may have misread.

Are you saying the anvil would normally be NOT consider an improvised weapon? Not grasping the point of your distinction here.

As for what weapon it would count as, the thing I keep coming back to is that it's just really heavy. 50+ lbs makes it probably the heaviest weapon option out there. Not saying that weight = damage, but does seem like the weight would affect it's usability as a weapon. A small character can't even realistically lift an anvil to use one as a weapon and this equipment trick doesn't scale with size.

For improvised weapons, I'm thinking it might be an oversized weapon, like a Large or Huge Heavy Mace. Not sure if the oversized weapon rules can apply to improvised weapons...

[Vidmaster7]

SmiloDan wrote:

I once tied a rope to an anvil, lassoed a golem with the other end of the rope, and pushed the anvil off a cliff...

Pretty good had to be a lighter golem I suspect.

[Klorox]

SmiloDan wrote:

I once tied a rope to an anvil, lassoed a golem with the other end of the rope, and pushed the anvil off a cliff...

must have been a pretty small/light golem to be dragged by a single anvil that a humanoid could move.

[Lady-J]

i had an orc slayer that one handed hurled an anvil at some one

[Vidmaster7]

Klorox wrote:

SmiloDan wrote:

I once tied a rope to an anvil, lassoed a golem with the other end of the rope, and pushed the anvil off a cliff...

must have been a pretty small/light golem to be dragged by a single anvil that a humanoid could move.

I was thinking flesh maybe

[Klorox]

I wonder how strong was the guy who tipped the anvil over, as the golem is large (and presumably relatively heavy) and pretty strong (20 for a classical specimen)

[Vidmaster7]

Yeah but if we assume the anvil is on the edge of a precipice for some reason it wouldn't take much to push it off. I could see that much weight even whit a 20 strength making you loss balance and fall. assuming nothing around to grab a hold of.

HMM.. I think we just don't have enough details.

[Klorox]

granted, we don't know enough about the specifics of the situation to review the ruling

[Cuup]

Creating New Weapons; Improved Damage wrote:

...Among weapons sized for Medium characters, the maximum damage is 1d6 for light weapons, 1d8 for one-handed weapons (1d10 if exotic), 1d12 or 2d6 for two-handed weapons, and 1d10 for ranged weapons (1d6 if used or thrown one-handed).

Regardless of weight, the most damage an anvil sized for a Medium creature would deal is 1d12 or 2d6.

[Glorf Fei-Hung]

Cuup wrote:

Creating New Weapons; Improved Damage wrote:

...Among weapons sized for Medium characters, the maximum damage is 1d6 for light weapons, 1d8 for one-handed weapons (1d10 if exotic), 1d12 or 2d6 for two-handed weapons, and 1d10 for ranged weapons (1d6 if used or thrown one-handed).

Regardless of weight, the most damage an anvil sized for a Medium creature would deal is 1d12 or 2d6.

I would probably rule it 1d6 unless it was being dropped/thrown or you could illustrate exactly how it was being used. Weight alone does not equate to force of impact, and size of the area being impacted would further reduce the damaging effect of the blow. As a massively heavy blunt weapon if you are not able to get it moving quickly enough you are not going to be hitting very hard with it.

I would much rather be hit by someone trying to pick up and swing a log than I would by someone picking up and swinging a 2" diameter stick.

Back to the concept of falling if this is a ranged weapon then I would accept the higher damage dice (I would even call it 2d6+1d6/range increment to identify that throwing it further would have to arch more so gravity is working with you more at impact) as you're now combining your ability to use it as a weapon with the impact gravity will have when it lands on you. As a ranged weapon I would have to call it a range increment of 5, and a DC 15+5/increment Strength check to throw it. So throwing it adjacent to you is DC 15, throwing it at something 10' away is DC 20. If you fail the roll it falls short. If you fail to beat DC 5 you have a 50% chance of dropping it on yourself. Additionally as with any ranged attack it would provoke, any damage done would be added to the DC of the throw, as well as the DC not to drop it. So if you're hit for 10 DMG it's +10 on the throw DC and DC 15 not to drop it on yourself.

So that's my interpretation. Certainly not a great all around weapon, but definitely a heavy hitter under the right circumstances.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:

I would probably rule it 1d6 unless it was being dropped/thrown or you could illustrate exactly how it was being used. Weight alone does not equate to force of impact, and size of the area being impacted would further reduce the damaging effect of the blow. As a massively heavy blunt weapon if you are not able to get it moving quickly enough you are not going to be hitting very hard with it.

I would much rather be hit by someone trying to pick up and swing a log than I would by someone picking up and swinging a 2" diameter stick.

Back to the concept of falling if this is a ranged weapon then I would accept the higher damage dice (I would even call it 2d6+1d6/range increment to identify that throwing it further would have to arch more so gravity is working with you more at impact) as you're now combining your ability to use it as a weapon with the impact gravity will have when it lands on you. As a ranged weapon I would have to call it a range increment of 5, and a DC 15+5/increment Strength check to throw it. So throwing it adjacent to you is DC 15, throwing it at something 10' away is DC 20. If you fail the roll it falls short. If you fail to beat DC 5 you have a 50% chance of dropping it on yourself. Additionally as with any ranged attack it would provoke, any damage done would be added to the DC of the throw, as well as the DC not to drop it. So if you're hit for 10 DMG it's +10 on the throw DC and DC 15 not to drop it on yourself.

So that's my interpretation. Certainly not a great all around weapon, but definitely a heavy hitter under the right circumstances.

I have worked with anvils in the past (main appeal here), and although definitely not a weapon, it is certainly made of weapon quality steel (or iron) and a 50lb anvil is certainly enough to break your foot with just a 2ft drop (and no foot protection). If you were actually strong enough to swing an anvil, it would be very easy to really hurt people with downward swings. D6 damage is way too low for swings.

As for comparable weapons, the maximum weapon weight is about 20lbs (dwarven longhammer or Orc Skull Ram). So even if I take a Titan Fighter to be able to wield Large Two-handed weapons, 40lbs is about the max for weapon wielding weight for a medium creature.

Regarding ability to swing. Although not directly covered, 50lbs is a light load for a 13 str medium character, which grants some idea about how iffy wielding one of these as a weapon would be. Honestly, I think the anvil is really only an improvised weapon in respect to it's weight, it really is, otherwise, a very viable weapon that would decimate most enemies.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Oh, forgot about special materials. A Golden Large Dwarven Longhammer would weigh 60lbs...

[Glorf Fei-Hung]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:

I would probably rule it 1d6 unless it was being dropped/thrown or you could illustrate exactly how it was being used. Weight alone does not equate to force of impact, and size of the area being impacted would further reduce the damaging effect of the blow. As a massively heavy blunt weapon if you are not able to get it moving quickly enough you are not going to be hitting very hard with it.

I would much rather be hit by someone trying to pick up and swing a log than I would by someone picking up and swinging a 2" diameter stick.

Back to the concept of falling if this is a ranged weapon then I would accept the higher damage dice (I would even call it 2d6+1d6/range increment to identify that throwing it further would have to arch more so gravity is working with you more at impact) as you're now combining your ability to use it as a weapon with the impact gravity will have when it lands on you. As a ranged weapon I would have to call it a range increment of 5, and a DC 15+5/increment Strength check to throw it. So throwing it adjacent to you is DC 15, throwing it at something 10' away is DC 20. If you fail the roll it falls short. If you fail to beat DC 5 you have a 50% chance of dropping it on yourself. Additionally as with any ranged attack it would provoke, any damage done would be added to the DC of the throw, as well as the DC not to drop it. So if you're hit for 10 DMG it's +10 on the throw DC and DC 15 not to drop it on yourself.

So that's my interpretation. Certainly not a great all around weapon, but definitely a heavy hitter under the right circumstances.

I have worked with anvils in the past (main appeal here), and although definitely not a weapon, it is certainly made of weapon quality steel (or iron) and a 50lb anvil is certainly enough to break your foot with just a 2ft drop (and no foot protection). If you were actually strong enough to swing an anvil, it would be very easy to really hurt people with downward swings. D6 damage is way too low for swings....

In your illustration of downward attacks I would permit increased damage, probably even about 3d6, however I would say using a weapon in such a restricted attack angle would prevent the natural flow of a battle from working in your favor, since you are only attacking downward you have to work harder to line up the shots than someone who is able to attack from any angle. This would restrict you to one attack per round, or possibly a Multishot concept, your first attack each round does the increased damage of a downward strike, all iterative attacks are not downward strikes and have significantly less force behind them, dealing the reduced damage. (Hasted attacks for instance could provide you the extra speed you need to reset and attack from above again in the same round, allowing 2 hits at full damage)

[Link2000]

The problem here is that Pathfinder doesn't necessarily utilize proper physics for their game. Mostly to keep it simple and I appreciate that. So trying to drag what is realistic into this setting is pretty much moot to point.

Here's what real physics says: Force = Mass * Acceleration, a resting 50lb anvil has a mass of roughly 22 kilograms. (about a 1/4 of a human male). Gravity pulls that mass at roughly 30 ft/s towards the ground, meaning to change it's direction to "ignore" gravity, a person would have to swing with at least 100lbs of force (double the force pulling down), moving the same object at nearly 40 mi/hr. 50lbs at 40 mi/hr would pretty much crush any human bone in the objects path. I would like to note that the physics here is not perfect. Doesn't take account resistance or inertia, but it is close enough for politicians.

Sadly the best the game will give us is a simple weapon of comparable weight... So maybe a huge two-handed simple weapon that does bludgeoning?

[Murdock Mudeater]

Link2000 wrote:

Sadly the best the game will give us is a simple weapon of comparable weight... So maybe a huge two-handed simple weapon that does bludgeoning?

Improvised weapons don't have to be based on simple weapons.

The description is that we compare "relative size and damage" to the weapon list and find the most reasonable match. Then we modify the critical to 20, the multiplier to x2 and an improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10ft.

And PS, the Greatclub that keeps getting suggested is a Martial weapon.

Anyway, it does seem weird that you'd be able to take this feat that allows the anvil to be used as a weapon, but that the weapon it allows is unusable by creatures of your size.

[SmiloDan]

Klorox wrote:

granted, we don't know enough about the specifics of the situation to review the ruling

It was in an area with a bunch of magical floating platforms.

My PC was a dwarf ranger/fighter, so pretty strong, but not belt-strong at the time.

I think it mostly got the golem off balance and it then it fell.

And it might not have been a golem; I might be conflating it with a time another group dealt with a golem by using stoneshape to make a ramp under the golem, grease to make the ramp slippery, spiderclimb for the "bait", and then enlarge person on my scout so he could lasso and then pull a golem off a cliff--with octuple my usual weight! And a feather token to not go splat....

[Cuup]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

I have worked with anvils in the past (main appeal here), and although definitely not a weapon, it is certainly made of weapon quality steel (or iron) and a 50lb anvil is certainly enough to break your foot with just a 2ft drop (and no foot protection). If you were actually strong enough to swing an anvil, it would be very easy to really hurt people with downward swings. D6 damage is way too low for swings.

As for comparable weapons, the maximum weapon weight is about 20lbs (dwarven longhammer or Orc Skull Ram). So even if I take a Titan Fighter to be able to wield Large Two-handed weapons, 40lbs is about the max for weapon wielding weight for a medium creature.

Regarding ability to swing. Although not directly covered, 50lbs is a light load for a 13 str medium character, which grants some idea about how iffy wielding one of these as a weapon would be. Honestly, I think the anvil is really only an improvised weapon in respect to it's weight, it really is, otherwise, a very viable weapon that would decimate most enemies.

What you need to keep in mind is that a dagger dropped blade down on your neck from just 2 feet up could kill you, yet game mechanics dictates the damage as just 1d4. Weight was never really a factor when it came to calculating weapon damage in Pathfinder.

Improvised Weapons wrote:

To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match.

RAW, weight isn't a factor for determining the damage of an improvised weapon - just the size and damage potential. Even though an anvil is made of weapon-grade material (which may allude to it being treated as an Earthbreaker; 2H, 2d6), it's boxy, and doesn't really have a focal point for it to be struck on. I'd rule that it would be treated as a Heavy Mace (1H, 1d8), or Greatclub (2H, 1d10), depending on the size of the anvil in question. A lot of an anvil's kinetic force is going to be dispersed from the point of impact along its wide shape (which is basically the idea, from an anvil's design standpoint). Weapons like blades and hammers have narrow points that focus all the kinetic force into a small area, which is what makes them so deadly. An anvil is little more than a dense boulder (a Small-sized boulder (one the size of a Halfling) would deal 1d8 damage, so a boulder the size of an anvil used by a Medium-sized creature would do even less).

[Steelthunderr]

for a lvl 1 barbarian archtype hurler .. basic str 16 ,alchemist lvl 4 mutagen str and at lvl 4 bull str adding enlarge .. giving him str 30 what kind of anvil is adviced ?

Looking for things to throw beside bombs and alchemy weapons . and always fan of the old cartoons where anvil's drop .. what damage would such an avil do ? oh handy haversack is in possesion .