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I disagree. I think the Medium, as written, is the ideal back-up character for a party. He's able to basically become any core class, on a daily basis, allowing the party to fill gaps in their party desgin. Yeah, he does become a weaker version of that class, but it allows the party to have a back-up character in lots of roles.
Party needs more martial DPS, he takes the champion spirit and gives the party a bonus on damage rolls. Party needs another sword and board fighter, he takes the gardian spirit and the party gains a bonus on CMD. And so forth.
The challenge is that to take advantage of these spirits, you need a very diverse set of attributes, equipment, and feat selection becomes a huge challenge.
That might be what the class is intended to be, but it's not what the class actually is. Champion is the only spirit worth taking.
Archmage = "I wish I was half as good as a wizard."
Hierophant = "I wish I was half as good as a cleric."
Marshall = "I wish I was half as good as a bard."
Trickster = "I wish I was half as good as a Core rogue that most people on the forums consider the worst class in the game."
Guardian = "I'm a tower shield with legs. Damage? What's that?"A couple of those do come on line and become useful later. The Marshall spirit seems like it could become useful at level 11. Still much worse than playing an average bard, but possibly worth playing.
And yes, some of the archetypes make the class work better. But for the most part, it's either strength based champion, or else just take it as a one or two level dip on another class.
An unarchetyped medium can shine as the "whatever you need today" sixth party member...but it would be in a different setup than PFS. The lower the power level and resources you have at your disposal, and the more time you have to prep for each phase of the mission, the more valuable the medium is. PFS is at the wrong end of the scale for all of those. You're much better off in PFS just making lots of characters to choose from, and just picking the right one for that particular mission.
If you wanted to build the ultimate support character for a slow-paced, urban campaign with 10 pt point buy -- I'd build a vanilla medium in a heartbeat. But never in PFS.
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I have a medium I've been having fun with for flavor more than anything. I personally have found the most useful and functional way to play one is as a Spirit Dancer. It lets you channel a different spirit every combat with rounds like a barbarian's rage, and the same after use penalties.
You lose out taking taboos and the all day benefits, but if you're worried about combat it lets you switch spirits based on the need of a certain fight and really lets you take advantage of the versatility of all the options without you just feeling like a crappy version of another class for the day.
It also has the benefit of not requiring you to seance in a specific location related to the choice of the day, just do a general seance at the start and pick as you go.
Is it the best option? No, but I have min/maxed characters already.
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my issue with spirit dancer is that you basically only have enough rounds for in combat use of your spirit. Unless you have really long duration buffs you can lay down in 1 round of channeling a different spirit you don't get much use.
Want to use diplomacy? Takes 1 minute, 10 rounds, basically all your rounds at lv4, to make that check.
Need to spellcraft an item? That's 3 rounds.
Want to channel after a fight? that's 1-3 rounds.
They have worse progression of their pool than a barb and the barb only needs his for in combat use, I don't see barbs raging outside of fights, like the medium would be.
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With mine I have Diplomacy and Spellcraft as actual skills, so that's a moot problem. Channeling for 1-3 rounds isn't a big loss. But yes it does suffer from not getting as much effect out of combat. But then it's a matter of if you just always channel Champion, it provides no value out of combat, but if you can choose what the channel you have the option there to use something else when you need it.
I've saved a party a few times already by being able to switch up my options on a whim and say, remove a darkness spell or cast silent image to foul up archers harrying a party. It's a trade, but I think it gives better value to the spirit dancer in general, particularly in PFS.
Their progression is Cha + double their level. So at 16 cha and level 4 that's 11 rounds.
A 16 Con Barb 4 is 4 + 3 + 6, so 13 rounds. But then remember the Spirit Dancer can get an additional 12 rounds per day if they choose to accept influence over it. 23 vs 13, maybe 14 if you start your barb at 18 con. And both only get an additional 2 rounds per day. Even if you take Extra Rage you'll still be 4 rounds behind the spirit dancer forever.
So their progression is arguably better, or 4 less if you don't want the 3 point influence penalties.
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Contributor
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I guess this would be a good time to (once again) repost my PC building criteria:
When I make a new PC, I try to answer 4 questions (used to be 3, but I ended up with a couple of boring PCs, so added a 4th):1. What's this character's specialty in combat? As long as the PC can do something that helps the party succeed in a fight, this can be anything, not just dealing damage, but make sure you're actually good at whatever this is. You don't have to be uber-optimized, but make sure you can contribute.
2. What does this character do in combat when they're specialty isn't an option? This is things like having a ranged weapon even though your character is a melee beast, or an enchantment based character having something they can do when facing mindless foes. Also, everyone should try to get some splash weapons for use against swarms, though that might have to wait until after your first adventure to be able to afford it.
3. What does this character do outside of combat? This isn't just for personality, this is also making sure you have something useful to contribute between fights. Sometimes, it's diplomacy or other face skills, even if it's just enough of a bonus to be the "aid another" guy behind the main face. Sometimes, it's knowledges, sense motive, stealth, or whatever other skills could come in handy between fights.
4. What personality traits will you be able to actively portray at the table? The above 3 questions are designed to make a playable PC by giving them something useful to do in most situations. This question was added afterwards to make a fun character. I had a couple of PCs that were mechanically interesting, but didn't have a personality. Or they had a detailed back story, but that didn't really give me something to role play at the table. This is about giving your PC personality, whether it's a distinctive voice, an obsession that you can play up, or whatever other quirk makes the PC fun to play.
Fromper, since you reposted this, I just wanted to mention that I've found this technique incredibly helpful for making my own PCs. I also shared it with my husband, and I just overheard him sharing it with someone else at a recent game day, so it is even spreading outside the forum! Thank you for the succinct method for building strong characters.
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I really wanted to make Medium work, but only see two really viable Medium builds: Champion Spirit, or Storyteller Medium. Champion is about on par with other martials. Storyteller is about on par with a Bard, with the option for a divine, arcane or skill focus instead of the bard spell list.
Medium is a viable 1, 2 or 4 level dip. Shared Seance is a nice group buff and Legendary Influence can give a lot of flexibility to other builds. It's possible that if you're starting a campaign at 11 or 17th, a Marshal Spirit build could work somewhat better than an equivalent Bard.
For what it's worth, I think Unsworn Shaman is more viable as a swiss army knife. I've got an Unsworn Shaman 8/Medium 1 that actually feels on par with a specialist in whatever he's up to that day.
Agreed. That was my point. The medium class just doesn't work, unless you're focusing on the champion spirit or going with one of the better archetypes. And even with champion spirit, it's strength builds only.
I'm trying to figure out how to make the Fiend Keeper archetype from Blood of the Beast work, since I've got the grippli boon and love the archetype's fluff. I figured Weapon Finesse with the racial rapier proficiency, and maybe a dagger in the off hand once I can pick up the TWF feat at level 3. The Champion spirit should give some extra damage, right?
As a dex based build with 10 str (tossing in 2 points to make up for the racial str penalty), I'll be doing 1d4+3 damage at level 1. And there's no convenient way to get dex to damage, so that's really only going up as the spirit bonus increases. I figure with all the extra attacks from TWF, Improved TWF, the Champion spirit, and getting Haste at level 7, I can be up to 6 attacks per round at level 9, so I should do ok when I can full attack, and get pounce at level 11. But against anything with DR, I'll be like an archer without Clustered Shots.
Mediums can work if you multi-class. As noted above, they're a great single level...
At level 1 on a PBS you're dealing 1d8 + 4 per shot, increasing with spirit bonus and while its not pounce a full round of movement prior to a full round of arching is pretty damn good and just about the only way to do that which gives you something no other class can do.
Again this is even better if you can slap a strength bonus and use a longbow from the beginning. Again, of course, this build gets better if you dip out of it and into fighter for a hot second to grab your archery feats faster but still.
1:PBS
3:Precise Shot
5:Rapid Shot
7: Weapon Focus?
9: Manyshot
11: Clustered Shots
I mean not the most efficient archer ever but fully viable
To defend myself on my criticism of Combat Maneuver users, my MAIN issue with them isn't the build itself, it's that a lot of these guys are SO specialized in it that when the table doesn't have a heavy they just aren't good at stepping in and handling the vital party role of actually killing things.
I ran a table at SCARAB which had a pair of tripping monks with teamwork feats and I believe they had a witch and healer and Bard.
The Bard ended up dealing all of the damage because he had dealing damage as a backup role. but the slot took FOREVER.
They did a good job of softening up targets for him - sometimes. This was higher level so there were impossible or very difficult targets for tripping and the like and they had a lot of closer calls than they probably should have.
So my advice is even if you REALLY like tripping or some other "not dealing damage" character idea, make sure that if you're the melee, that you can if push comes to shove melee things dead and not just less than optimal.
Granted, I think this is more of a problem in areas where warhorn is present. If I see 3 characters signed up who should probably be able to fight in melee and kill things I might take my fighter to a different table that I think needs me, not knowing that this other party also needs me.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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I'm still wondering whether my Dirty Trick Slayer will be any good. As you said, last time I was mostly needed to do damage, which he's still good at (STR 18, greatsword), but yeah, if you can't skip prerequisites, some builds are tough to properly balance for two roles. A while ago a Flowing Monk was tanking two or three large Scorpions while we were occupied elsewhere. He did a great job of fending them off (and repeatedly pushing them into Spike Stones), but it was mostly staving them off until the "real" melee was done with the other enemies. Maybe the Monk isn't an ideal repositioner as he's already MAD, but the Slayer can skip prereqs and cheat a feat or two in, that's absolutely amazing. On top of that, they have built-in ways to increase to-hit and damage, and are good at skills. I love how well-built a Slayer is, they can do practically anything.
As an aside, Spike Stones are absolutely insane. I've cast it every time I could, and while it isn't a combat finisher, it's probably the most damaging spell I'll ever get.
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I mean if you're asking me personally I think that's fine.
The real thing is just a) noticing when dirty trick isn't actually going to help and b) being able to competently deal enough damage. As long as you sneak power attack into that build somewhere you sound fine. Even without it you're still at least usually going to hit and deal a decent amount of damage, better than that bard I spoke of for sure.
And it sounds likes you can handle it.
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I'm going to take this question in a different direction. Concepts that don't seem to work as well in PFS are characters designed around lots of roleplaying involving their backstory. I don't mean that you can't have a character with an interesting backstory, or that you can't role-play that character in PFS. But if the character is one that you want to do that for a lot, and who you'd like to see their backstory woven into the narrative, then PFS is probably not the best fit.
As an example, I had a character that I originally made for PFS and ended up swapping to be an Adventure Path character (Rise of the Runelords).
When it came to developing his backstory, however, it quickly grew to be intricate and complicated. Time spent homeless as a child, then being taken in by an Alchemist where he learned about gunpowder, moving on as an adult, falling in love with an elven Calistrian prostitute -- because there's always a dame -- joining the church as a weapon of Calistria's vengeance, etc. I decided that the woman he was in love with had been killed while on a job for the church, and when he tried to look into it, the church shut him down, forbidding him to investigate. This led me to choose the Heretic Archetype.
So far so good. I could play this character in PFS. I would have plenty to contribute in and out of combat. But the farther I got into the backstory and personality of the character, the more I realized that the fun of playing the character wasn't in getting 5 ranged touch attacks for 1d6+20+2d6 a round. The character was more about the long game. The investigation into his girlfriends' death and why the church had shut him out. If I played him in PFS, any answers to those questions were going to come from me. Maybe I could weave in the Lissala arc or something, or maybe I'd run into a "tell me your darkest secret and it will show up later this session" situation, but the scenarios themselves were never going to use that information in the way that I wanted them to.
It just happened that a local group of PFS players were in the middle of Runelords and looking to pick up another player. I was able to jump into that situation, and the GM was immediately able to tie my backstory, and the character's girlfriend's death, into one of the main plots of the adventure path. Suddenly running afoul of worshippers of Calistria who might find out who he was and that he had deserted the church was a real possibility. And everything could culminate with him putting his lost girlfriend's soul at rest, saving her from the fate that the villain had sentenced her to when she got caught up in something bigger and killed.
And there are the little things, like convincing my GM to let me have a Fedora of the Fortunate Soldier crafted, because, "I ain't wearing no stinkin' cone on my head!"
That kind of interweaving of backstory with campaign made the character so much more interesting and fun to play. Repeated roleplaying interactions with the same NPCs or party members allowed me to explore the "long game" aspect of him as a detective. While he might still have been fun to play in PFS, the character would not have the depth that he did in a longer and more consistent format.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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Douglas: I was more wondering aloud, not necessarily at you. The advantage is that a Slayer will probably already be built for damage, while the Bard in your example took it as a secondary role.
And yeah, I notice that some characters are really fun to play, but their backstory usually dissolves into the background once the briefing is over. Sometimes you might make some decisions or make some quips based on your backstory, but usually once the scenario really begins background becomes secondary to solving the scenario. Social people will still generally interact more with NPCs, but there's rarely any heavy roleplay unless the scenario calls for it. Which is a shame, but good for the 4-5 hour timeframes most scenarios have to operate in.
Exactly. Any of those battlefield control effects, like entangle, glitterdust, create pit--I consider those all to be "support" as you're reducing the amount of damage coming into the party. Which gives the DPS more leeway to do their job and murderhobo everything.
The whole "Murderhobo" concept is one that doesnt pan out in PFS.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Exactly. Any of those battlefield control effects, like entangle, glitterdust, create pit--I consider those all to be "support" as you're reducing the amount of damage coming into the party. Which gives the DPS more leeway to do their job and murderhobo everything.The whole "Murderhobo" concept is one that doesnt pan out in PFS.
It works less and less. Which I'm fine with. John Compton's made it clear that when writing scenarios he wants both a fight which is hard to avoid (for people who enjoy fighting) and one that really should be avoided but can be brute-forced if necessary.
I think it makes the Society much more credible as an Indiana Jones like organization as opposed to a Rambo sort of organization.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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I'm still wondering whether my Dirty Trick Slayer will be any good.Be a Bounty Hunter and he will be. Retrain into it if you have to... it's legit.
Pop out of nowhere and say, "HI, BTW, YOU'RE BLIND AND I'M CLOBBERING YOU."
Full BAB with a little extra... and they're flat footed against you when they don't notice you, so your CMB should be pretty good... Seems fine if you have enough bonuses to Stealth and CMB. I mean, eventually the monster's CMDs will be too high, but like, you're a basically a two handed weapon fighter, so you should be OK. Own a bow with appropriate arrows as a backup plan.
I was thinking of that, but I went Stygian Slayer instead. Getting my Ranger Combat Style ASAP really helps. Besides, Bounty Hunters can only get free dirty tricks when sneak attacking, which I'm not sure I can get off reliably enough. Submission Hold is nice, but I'm not sure if it's worth taking it. I prefer the utility of Stygian Slayer. It comes online a little bit late, but being able to activate wands and scrolls as a full-BAB class is something I'm excited about.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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Well that sucks. My sole natural attacker is an old NIN I've never got around to rebuilding as an unchained rogue since I don't have the Unchained PDF yet.Natural weapons.How so?IME natural weapon users start running into problem with DR that they can't penetrate starting in the 5-9 tier. Most notably DR/adamantine and DR/[alignment]. Weapon buffs that you might normally use (bless weapon, align weapon) won't work on natural weapons.
There are ways around it (e.g. furious amulet of mighty fists if you are a barbarian, World Serpent totem if you are a barbarian, I'm sure that there are others) but it can be a rude shock if you aren't prepared for it.
People in this thread have talked about natural attack builds that work for them, perhaps you could look at those for some assistance?
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Fromper, since you reposted this, I just wanted to mention that I've found this technique incredibly helpful for making my own PCs. I also shared it with my husband, and I just overheard him sharing it with someone else at a recent game day, so it is even spreading outside the forum! Thank you for the succinct method for building strong characters.I guess this would be a good time to (once again) repost my PC building criteria:
Glad to be of service, ma'am. *tips hat*
In response to Douglas Edwards' medium suggestion, I considered going archery. But I just love the fluff of the "princely" alternate racial trait for gripplis. The idea of this 2 foot tall frog-man walking around with a rapier and talking like a noble just really appeals to me. I'm picturing him wearing a crown, too, but I can't imagine a good reason for it that works with Golarion lore. And on a dex build that has Long Arm on the spell list, I could go Combat Reflexes and stab everyone when they least expect it.
But yes, archery is an option. But it's feat intensive enough to be tough to do on a class without bonus feats. I think it would end up being similar to my TWF idea in having lots of low damage attacks per round, but with Clustered Shots at level 9 to help with the DR problem. And the lack of Precise Shot until level 3 would make for a slow start.
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The idea of this 2 foot tall frog-man walking around with a rapier and talking like a noble just really appeals to me. I'm picturing him wearing a crown, too, but I can't imagine a good reason for it that works with Golarion lore.Mine styles himself a Knight of Taldor, he was even Knightment by our Glorious Emperor Stavian III (from Honours Echo) and will be buying a noble title as soon as he has the fame. His is in fact a druid who rides his dinosaur companion into battle charging this with a lance with his terrible str. He is actually built as a caster druid with a lot of wisdom, diplomacy and bluff so is terrible in melee but I figure a full strength animal companion and spells will make up for it.
He is pretty much based on Don Quixote.
Mine follows The Lost Prince and is pretty much a frog version of Utena Tenjou. Except also a bad touch cleric.
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If you wait to play the character until you have Unchained, you should still get a free ground up rebuild into Unchained Rogue. I don't think you can swap levels for other classes, but Rogue for Unchained Rogue should be fine as long as you don't play him in the meantime, and changing feats around if you want to switch fighting styles.
DR is the biggest concern, and for a Rogue that becomes DR plus immunity to sneak attacks. So again, it comes back to elementals (and oozes, but mostly elementals).
The trick is to get LOTS of natural attacks, and to make sure that your minimum damage will get through DR 10. And if you can have ways to boost that further, then great. My Investigator uses Monstrous Physique to get 5 natural attacks, but that didn't kick in until fairly high level. He had 3 from Alter Self for a long time. There's the Helm of the Mammoth Lord for a Gore attack to at least get to 4 when you can afford it.
An Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists does wonders. It affects all of your natural attacks (unlike the Unchained Rogues ability). You get your full Dex bonus to damage on all of your primary attacks. With a 20 Dex, probably higher by the time you get Agile, that means even if you run into Adamantine, alignment DR, or whatever, you're getting through DR 5/- with your minimum damage. Piranha Strike can help a lot. Body wraps of Mighty Strikes can give you a bonus on a couple of attacks a round a lot cheaper than upgrading the amulet. An oil of Magic Fang can enchant your other attack. Greater Magic Fang when you can get it is even better. Deliquescent Gloves can add some acid damage to your claw attacks. Look for other static damage modifiers. Rogue doesn't have as many as other classes, but they're out there. My Investigator uses Studied Combat/Mutagen/Monstrous Physique. There's a Barbarian/Alchemist locally that has a +1 Furious Amulet of Mighty Fists, which is a great solution if you have Rage.
Anyway, I think that a natural weapon build is easier to make work than a TWF build, but probably still inferior to a THW build. Especially with Unchained Rogue getting 1 1/2x DEX with a THW. So go for what you think will be the most fun.
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To defend myself on my criticism of Combat Maneuver users, my MAIN issue with them isn't the build itself, it's that a lot of these guys are SO specialized in it that when the table doesn't have a heavy they just aren't good at stepping in and handling the vital party role of actually killing things.
I ran a table at SCARAB which had a pair of tripping monks with teamwork feats and I believe they had a witch and healer and Bard.
The Bard ended up dealing all of the damage because he had dealing damage as a backup role. but the slot took FOREVER.
They did a good job of softening up targets for him - sometimes. This was higher level so there were impossible or very difficult targets for tripping and the like and they had a lot of closer calls than they probably should have.
So my advice is even if you REALLY like tripping or some other "not dealing damage" character idea, make sure that if you're the melee, that you can if push comes to shove melee things dead and not just less than optimal.
Granted, I think this is more of a problem in areas where warhorn is present. If I see 3 characters signed up who should probably be able to fight in melee and kill things I might take my fighter to a different table that I think needs me, not knowing that this other party also needs me.
The problem with the 2 monks you describe is the build the players used. I have a trip monk, and I have to sometimes hold back to let other members of the party shine. Greater Trip/Ki Throw/Vicious Stomp on a Dex-based chasis is incredibly powerful and tanky. Add in Pummeling Charge, and it's devastating. With the options available to players today, any build can work.
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The problem with the 2 monks you describe is the build the players used. I have a trip monk, and I have to sometimes hold back to let other members of the party shine. Greater Trip/Ki Throw/Vicious Stomp on a Dex-based chasis is incredibly powerful and tanky. Add in Pummeling Charge, and it's devastating. With the options available to players today, any build can work.
Well, you didn't hold back in Curse of the Riven Sky... the poor fighters. :p
Trip builds are nice, but without the abilities to supplement the maneuver, it's more waste of time. If you can't trip an enemy, what else you can do?
I have a Dirty Fighting Kitsune Swashbuckler/Ranger- and only plan to disarm/trip foes when it benefits the party, and mostly plan on helping the party with Freeboter's Bane.
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The problem with the 2 monks you describe is the build the players used. I have a trip monk, and I have to sometimes hold back to let other members of the party shine. Greater Trip/Ki Throw/Vicious Stomp on a Dex-based chasis is incredibly powerful and tanky. Add in Pummeling Charge, and it's devastating. With the options available to players today, any build can work.
Well, you didn't hold back in Curse of the Riven Sky... the poor fighters. :p
Trip builds are nice, but without the abilities to supplement the maneuver, it's more waste of time. If you can't trip an enemy, what else you can do?
I have a Dirty Fighting Kitsune Swashbuckler/Ranger- and only plan to disarm/trip foes when it benefits the party, and mostly plan on helping the party with Freeboter's Bane.
Yeah, my reach weapon tripping warpriest has a backup plan: Against things that can't be tripped, he's still a guy with 18 strength and a pole arm, with Power Attack coming by level 5.
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I have run for and played with many different types healers and in the majority of cases their group would have probably been better off having that character run with active control effects. Pro-active damage prevention is regularly going to be more effective than reactive healing.You've clearly adventured with very poor healers.Pure healer
You're a wand discount. The healers handbook might change this, but healing does very little compared to damage taken
Depends on the healer. I had a dual channel priestess of Pharasma who once soloed three proteans (Now kids.. do NOT do this.. IT IS SCAARY), primarily her job was healing and undead control (Control Undead.. "Kneel you poor thing..'.. looks to nearest beat stick.. with the 'smash him look').
The trick is to put something else in place beyond JUST healing.. I literally went 13 levels without a magic weapon.. (Greater Magic Weapon Extended and Magic Vestment Extended is AWESOME cost savers)
Reach Rods (yes, plural) help in healing utility.. .. One or two cure spells per level.. a reach rod and automatic empowered spell.. makes for some awesome combat healing.
Utility is the magic word.. I had a friend lend my healer his +1 Conductive Heavy Mace.. the ability to hit someone..and inflict your bleeding touch domain power along with damage (along with Bull's strength, Angel Soul (with a spell to counter the side effects for a TN caster), and things like Righteous Might or Enlarge Person make her go from 'meh melee back up' to 'I hit and hurt him BAAD..or channel (deflecting the party) for even more fun...
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Yeah, this guys is a grandfathered in tiefling with a bite attack and is actually a ninja right now. I don't know when I'll be able to buy Unchained, but it's not like I don't have 22 other characters I can play in the meantime.If you wait to play the character until you have Unchained, you should still get a free ground up rebuild into Unchained Rogue. I don't think you can swap levels for other classes, but Rogue for Unchained Rogue should be fine as long as you don't play him in the meantime, and changing feats around if you want to switch fighting styles.
** spoiler omitted **...
Unfortunately the ninja does not qualify for the free rebuild into unchained rouge. I wish it was otherwise, but it has been stated here that there are no unchained ninjas, and here that ninja is not an archetype.
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ninja is not an archetype.
Correct. We have an actual ninja archetype now. Hasn't made it to Archives of Nethys yet, but it exists. I really wish Paizo would add another 6, or so, archetypes each for both the ninja and the samurai. They really should also add some favored class options, instead of using the alternate class's favored class options.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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Is that true? When I asked about it two years ago, I got users saying I could get a Ninja with a Rogue archetype. I get that it wouldn't stack with Unchained, but the posts on these forums have been very unclear about this.
Granted, Mark Seifter's response was after my topic, so there's that. Guess I'll have to rebuild (again, since they also errata'd Sap Adept since then).
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Venture-Lieutenant, Nebraska—Omaha
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Is that true? When I asked about it two years ago, I got users saying I could get a Ninja with a Rogue archetype. I get that it wouldn't stack with Unchained, but the posts on these forums have been very unclear about this.
Granted, Mark Seifter's response was after my topic, so there's that. Guess I'll have to rebuild (again, since they also errata'd Sap Adept since then).
Alternate classes sit somewhere in-between classes and archetypes. They don't stack with other alternate classes, but you can apply rogue archetypes if you have the abilities to trade out.
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Alternate classes sit somewhere in-between classes and archetypes. They don't stack with other alternate classes, but you can apply rogue archetypes if you have the abilities to trade out.Is that true? When I asked about it two years ago, I got users saying I could get a Ninja with a Rogue archetype. I get that it wouldn't stack with Unchained, but the posts on these forums have been very unclear about this.
Granted, Mark Seifter's response was after my topic, so there's that. Guess I'll have to rebuild (again, since they also errata'd Sap Adept since then).
Maybe
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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Medium becomes a good class when the party has all it's bases covered, and just needs an extra X class for a certain opponent, scenario, or situation. I do agree, that when directly comparing to a specific class, it is worse. You are focused in versatility, not in one specific form.
If I was playing PFS, the ideal situation for a Medium is to be the 7th player in a party. Then...
If you are going to have one character, then the medium becomes a fit for that 7th character. However, the other way to address the same issue is to have multiple characters, and pick one that is a better fit for whatever role is needed.
I do have 2 mediums (out of about 80 PFS characters) but I have not found a situation where I wanted to use either on the table vs my other options. I really want to love the medium, but it really isn't a good fit for PFS. (This is coming from someone who has a pretty low bar for what can contribute at the table. I don't play super optimized characters as a rule, and have thrown out some pretty suboptimal stuff in games.)
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Lord Dark Edgelord the Dark, angsty lone wolf loner that doesen't socialize but does loom in the corner dressed like he's at a funeral, brooding.
He never works out.
-j
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Lord Dark Edgelord the Dark, angsty lone wolf loner that doesen't socialize but does loom in the corner dressed like he's at a funeral, brooding.
He never works out.
-j
Just because someone doesn't lift doesn't make them necessarily a bad person, though?
Admittedly, when Lord Edgelord the Dark sits there and does nothing because 'what's the point?', that's when the head-banging against the table begins.
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The problem with the 2 monks you describe is the build the players used. I have a trip monk, and I have to sometimes hold back to let other members of the party shine. Greater Trip/Ki Throw/Vicious Stomp on a Dex-based chasis is incredibly powerful and tanky. Add in Pummeling Charge, and it's devastating. With the options available to players today, any build can work.
Well, you didn't hold back in Curse of the Riven Sky... the poor fighters. :p
Trip builds are nice, but without the abilities to supplement the maneuver, it's more waste of time. If you can't trip an enemy, what else you can do?
I have a Dirty Fighting Kitsune Swashbuckler/Ranger- and only plan to disarm/trip foes when it benefits the party, and mostly plan on helping the party with Freeboter's Bane.
Holding back in a high tier scenario/module can get you a TPK. Granted, I wasn't expecting Riven Sky's combats to be just groups of lower CR monsters with little to no class levels. I've looked through it, now that I've played it.
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Holding back in a high tier scenario/module can get you a TPK. Granted, I wasn't expecting Riven Sky's combats to be just groups of lower CR monsters with little to no class levels. I've looked through it, now that I've played it. ** spoiler omitted **
The problem with the 2 monks you describe is the build the players used. I have a trip monk, and I have to sometimes hold back to let other members of the party shine. Greater Trip/Ki Throw/Vicious Stomp on a Dex-based chasis is incredibly powerful and tanky. Add in Pummeling Charge, and it's devastating. With the options available to players today, any build can work.
Well, you didn't hold back in Curse of the Riven Sky... the poor fighters. :p
Trip builds are nice, but without the abilities to supplement the maneuver, it's more waste of time. If you can't trip an enemy, what else you can do?
I have a Dirty Fighting Kitsune Swashbuckler/Ranger- and only plan to disarm/trip foes when it benefits the party, and mostly plan on helping the party with Freeboter's Bane.
Yeah, I think that module is pretty undertuned for the level. A good many combats were ended with 1-2 castings of Confusion. Sometimes I got spicier and used 5th level slots.
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Holding back in a high tier scenario/module can get you a TPK. Granted, I wasn't expecting Riven Sky's combats to be just groups of lower CR monsters with little to no class levels. I've looked through it, now that I've played it. ** spoiler omitted **
True enough. I spent most of my money preparing for a difficult scenario. We still had the one fight we bypassed that could have proven a challenge.
Builds that typically don't pan out- are flavorful builds with mechanically inferior archetypes.
My Harrowstone party had a Tattedemalion witch. Flavorfully, it could be an interesting character. mechanically, the Hexes it learns are weak compared to what other witches have access to.
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Barbarian constitution?Forgive me for asking a newbie question, but I am new to Society play: What the heck is a "Masterwork Tool of looking for traps"? A really good 10-foot-pole?
Mostly every character I have has:...
Masterwork Tool of looking for traps
...
Heh. I almost suggested "goblin corpse on a rope."