As a melee focused druid at 20th level, what's the best thing to wild shape into for pure attack and damage per turn? Is it the Huge elemental, or do the beast shapes still compete?
And if their damage output has minimal difference, what would you say is the best? ...and dont just say how melee druids fall off in power after 12th level, i know they do.
Additional Request: can someone link a build of a melee druid at 20th level, showing its stats in its preferred combat form. That would be such a huge help! (im trying to gauge exactly how much AB the gain/lose compared to a 20th fighter, and to do the same with damage per turn) Links to builds that contain this info would be helpful too.
Elementals only get two slams I believe and no pounce so they are meh. I may be wrong but I think an Allosaurus used to be the premier form they have pounce and rake so 5 attacks on the charge coming off a huge creature.
For instances where in you can't charge a Gallows tree is stronger than an Earth elemental for pure damage just FYI.
Elementals only get two slams I blieve and no pounce so they are meh. I may be wrong but I think an Allosaurus used to be the premier form they have pounce and rake so 5 attacks on the charge coming off a huge creature.
For instances where in you can charge a Gallows tree is stronger than an Earth elemental for pure damage just FYI.
Can you give me an idea of the stats of what you think would be the best combat form @20? including all modifiers from BAB and feats if possible, i'd like to get a good idea of how they compare against a fighter at 20th, (I'm assuming they'll be worse at pure combat but I'd like to know by how much)
Assuming an 18 strength post racial, +2 from levelling, +6 from a belt and +6 from wildshaping into something huge. That's 32 STR
you should have +5 for greater magic fang/Amulet of mighy fists to hit and damage.
+15 BAB to your entire attack routine and if you're charging as an Allosaurus which you should be that's another +2
So your to hit is 33 on an attack routine of bite 2D6 and 4xclaw doing 1D8 with a +16 to damage.
As the Gallows tree you can't pounce but your full attack routine would be
6xSlam(2D6+17) since the gallos gives you a +8 to strength as opposed to the +6 the dinosaur gives. However your to hit would be 32 since you wouldn't be charging.
Nice, is allosaurus really the best for dpt? I assumed it would be a magical beast, elemental or plant :O
(is it worth choosing these other forms for the bonuses to con and stuff?)
You could also have a Tiger flanking buddy which would be pretty neato, there is a dinosaur that's better than tigers but I can't remember what it's called but they get scaling bonuses to strength and can have greater magic fang on them and a belt. It's very expensive but it's like having a permanent flanking buddy that adds like 100 to your DPR.
I think druids actually did better in the damage olympics that great sword fighters.
In my search I've been unable to find a plant or a elemental that pounce which is a deal breaker.
Gallows tree is stronger on a full attack that anything else I'm aware off but they can't I've and full attack.
Gallows provides a +6 con bonus.
The other utility of the spell is turning into things with kewl movement elementals for Earth glide and flight with perfect manoeuvrability are amazing
In my search I've been unable to find a plant or a elemental that pounce which is a deal breaker.
Gallows tree is stronger on a full attack that anything else I'm aware off but they can't I've and full attack.
looks like ill be picking a gallows tree then (also, you post faster than my browser refreshes, do they get +4 as listed in plant shape 3 or do they get +6?)
edit: 1) errr, one more thing, the only gallows tree i can find is from 3rd party, is there a paizo version (that you could link me to)? and if not, is there a suitable paizo alternative?
2) from now on, lets assume for this question that im already in melee range (to downplay the importance of pounce).
A basic fighter with a belt, starting with a 18 getting 4 from level and a +5 enhancement bonus has an attack routine of
38,33,28,23. So his first and second attack are more likely to hit but after that he is less accurate and would be doing 2D6+22. Power attack would bump that up massively to 2D6+40 but after furious focus on the first hit you'd be hitting on 27,22,17 which actually that likely to hit.
The Druid would get a +10 to damage and -5 to hit but I'm not convinced it is worth the accuracy drop unless you have a flanking buddy then your to hit would be 30 which would probably be okay.
Anything to add now ive edited my previous post? (and thanks for the help thus far!)
Ah s*+@ sorry about that, I don't know a good Huge plant for combat that's paizoofficial. There is a good large one but not worth not being a dinosaur.
For the record quickwood is amazing for delivering touch attacks but not great for combat.
Respecting downplaying the importance of pounce >.> are you sure pounce is arguably the strongest melee ability in the game
What may I ask is this for?
Respecting downplaying the importance of pounce >.> are you sure pounce is arguably the strongest melee ability in the game
What may I ask is this for?
Ah I agree, pounce is stupidly good. Im just looking to compare 2 different classes, standing next to eachother pummeling eachother. For science.
Edit: i'll start browsing the paizo plant forms in the mean time, just come across the giant flytrap with 4 bite attacks, which is pretty nice. shame about the speed, any advice on other plant forms would be great too. Also, anyone know if you can do iterative attacks using a natural weapon, and if so, is it ever worth it?
Well I think the dinosaur is still better
The biggest advantage the Druid has is she can have a tiger flanking the fighter with 34 strength doing 5 attacks with +5 enhancement bonus which really ruins the fighters day.
If the Druid wants he can also cast animal growth on the tiger or herself for a further +8 to strength.
So, on a related note; if i start with 14 dex, and i lose 4 by turning into a huge animal, id have a dex bonus of 0, so what's the best armor options for me? is wild stoneplate a thing?
Ironwood is.
You could make wild armor out of whatever material. I'd suggest dragonhide full plate if you want heavy armor, you do get movement penalties. At 20th level you absolutely should have an enhancement bonus to dex and possibly an inherent bonus too so don't assume no dex bonus; a dragonhide breastplate might be as good.
I think a warcat is marginally better than an allosaurus. A goliath druid as a storm giant might be better still. Still the numbers almost have to be better for a fighter between weapon training, weapon mastery, full BAB, advanced weapon and armor training, possibly a secondary natural attack or two, not to mention all the feats.
Edit: Actually a Nature Fang druid with the Frightful Aspect spell might be best of all due to the no-save fear effects of the spell and the studied target + slayer talents of the archetype.
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Not a huge creature, but Giant Octopus has a land speed and if you cast Air Breathing (Monster Codex) at level 20 will last 40 hours.
It has a bite, and 8 tentacles.
+15 bab, +9 from STR (assume starting stat of 18 with four pluses from levels, and a +6 belt), +5 from amulet, -1 from size = +28 attack for 1 bite of 1d8+14 (reach 10ft) and +23 or (+26 if you have multiattack) attack for 8 tentacles of 1d4+9 with grab and constrict (1d4+9) (reach 20ft)
No pounce though...
EDIT: Math was wrong, fixed it
Not contesting (I'd like the warcat to be better) but I can't seem to see the difference between the war at and Allo...
Not contesting (I'd like the warcat to be better) but I can't seem to see the difference between the war at and Allo...
I take that back. I was thinking rend would be better than rake at 20th level given how hard many enemies would be to grapple, but it takes BS IV to get rend and wild shape only goes up to BS III.
I'll see what I can do with nature fang & frightful aspect but really a fighter is going to have the numbers on offence & AC.
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Not a huge creature, but Giant Octopus has a land speed and if you cast Air Breathing (Monster Codex) at level 20 will last 40 hours.
You don't need that spell. Even if a real octopus could not breath on land, a wild shaped druid can. Nowhere is it stated that you lose the ability to breath air if you take an aquatic form.
"If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing."
Not a huge creature, but Giant Octopus has a land speed and if you cast Air Breathing (Monster Codex) at level 20 will last 40 hours.
You don't need that spell. Even if a real octopus could not breath on land, a wild shaped druid can. Nowhere is it stated that you lose the ability to breath air if you take an aquatic form.
"If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing."
nice... did not know that.
Thanks!
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Depending on what you are looking for in terms of combat for the Druid, a Goliath Druid Archetype can be a very powerful melee fighter by wildshaping into Giants/Trolls. With Regeneration, huge size, and high strength and Constitution bonuses you can take hits and deal them out. Mix it with Giants being "humanoid" shapes and that lets you keep your weapons and Armor without needing the Wild enchantment. While you will not have pounce, you can get around it like other melee fighters, quick runner shirts (nicer if you do not use the errata) or grab a reach weapon and control the battlefield with a 30 Ft reach.
A dwarven Druid who wears Stoneplate in the shape of a Giant is a very solid force to be dealt with.
Its not the traditional druid but very good in my opinion and can be very fun as well. As a bonus, you can speak normally in this form and have hands (normallly) so you do not need the Natural spell feat or Wild Speach opening up a few feat slots.
The other thing is that any druid gets access to Shapechange as a 9th level spell. It lasts 200 minutes at level 20 without anything to boost it and is noticeably better than the usual wild shape - as Beast Shape IV rather than III, Form of the Dragon III, etc., besides the ability to change forms each round if you're so inclined.
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Shapechange prevents you from casting spells so you would have to assume a Dragon or Giant like form for spell casting (not a serious hindrance) and feats that affect wild shape won't work (powerful shape for example). To be honest I don't think Druid 20 is the way to go for a melee druid I prefer dipping monk or barbarian.