Shield Slam is a not as good as many may think

[dwayne germaine]

Tomos wrote:

KainPen wrote:

how does bashing cap you at a +1 bonus?

Bashing is a defensive enchantment for a shield. It says "This shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash."

Bashing takes the place of a normal defensive enchantment that would otherwise add to AC. You can't make it any higher than a +1 weapon enchantment this way.

In order to boost your attack roll with a shield via standard magical enchantment, the shield needs to be enchanted as a weapon, requiring a 300gp initial investment for a masterwork shield-as-weapon and the use of the magical weapon enchantment prices (2k, 8k, 18k, etc.)

If you're going to be a shield slammer, 'double enchanting' your primary shield is smart. It can get very expensive though.
For instance, a heavy steel shield that has a +2 AC enchantment as well as a +2 weapon enchantment would cost 12,470gp

It's a good idea to make it adamantine too (+3000gp).

You are probably better off just taking the Shield master feat, rather than putting a bunch of offensive enhancements on your shield

[CBDunkerson]

TarkXT wrote:

Youre not reading the feat.

It says you move with the target trading one of two actions.

It says nothing of move limitations outside of with target. You bash 15ft you move 15ft with the 5ft move you have available. If the action is not you dont.

Oh.

You use 15 of your available 5 feet of movement.

You're right. I wasn't reading it (that way).

Indeed, I'm still not.

[KainPen]

Tomos wrote:

KainPen wrote:

how does bashing cap you at a +1 bonus?

Bashing is a defensive enchantment for a shield. It says "This shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash."

Bashing takes the place of a normal defensive enchantment that would otherwise add to AC. You can't make it any higher than a +1 weapon enchantment this way.

In order to boost your attack roll with a shield via standard magical enchantment, the shield needs to be enchanted as a weapon, requiring a 300gp initial investment for a masterwork shield-as-weapon and the use of the magical weapon enchantment prices (2k, 8k, 18k, etc.)

If you're going to be a shield slammer, 'double enchanting' your primary shield is smart. It can get very expensive though.
For instance, a heavy steel shield that has a +2 AC enchantment as well as a +2 weapon enchantment would cost 12,470gp

It's a good idea to make it adamantine too (+3000gp).

wow where are you getting this stuff from? no where in bashing does it say the +1 to from bashing takes away from the + bonus to enchantment.

Bashing does not cap you in any way shape or form. Maybe you did not mean to use the word Cap. because to cap means something; that is the top the pinnacle, it can not be surpassed or gotten around it is the limit. Your own explanation here which is why I asked, proves that it is not a cap. Because as you stated it can be enchanted as a weapon or you can have shield master feat that allows you to count defensive enhancement as weapon enhancement also as a much cheaper option. Making the cap i think +9 as weapons and +7 for defensive with abilities like bane, furious or I think defiant(armor not weapon) but this is only against certain creatures or conditions. there may be more that I am not aware of. The Cap is +5 under normal conditions, but a raging barbarian with a Furious dragon bane +5 shield fighting a dragon can get +9. any one with shield master feat and fighting a dragon with a +5 Dragon Defiant shield, will have +7 weapon.

The shield is the cheapest weapon outside of pfs to increase in power which is why people shun on the idea of two shield fighting. because with Shield master feat, you end up with a +5 weapon at half price that also added to ac. So for the price of 1 +5 weapon you can have two and +5 to ac, that you take no two weapon fighting penalties on. So it gets called cheese and ridiculous. you don't even need it to be adamantine. That is a waste of money since that 3 grand would be better spend increasing your defensive bonus. which will turn into a weapon bonus that will let your go thru just about all dr. At least thanks to the new FAQ, Shield master has been updated negate to only the two weapon fighting penalties. Instead of all penalties as it is written.

Bashing is very good enhancement to take, increase damage by 2 size categories, and giving you the ability to treat it as +1 weapon when bashing, early on this can be very useful being a defensive ability allowing a object normally use for defense to be and effective weapon and strike thru dr magic, and incorporeal creatures with out actual having to enchant it as a weapon. that is great. this is also a enhancement that is half the cost of a weapon 1. it holds it self over very well until you get shield master feat at level 11, or level 6 ranger/slayer.

As for the op original statement about shield slam, I don't think a lot of people think it is super great, It is a feat tax to a super great feat shield master, but it is still a good feat, since it is a free option to something they where going to do any way. It is one of the strongest feat taxes, because it's ability is still worth a feat. I don't think there are any other options currently that can allow you to bullrush more then 2 creatures in a rd or even on AOO. with haste and full attack action you can bull rush. The flaw in the abilities is the based in combat maneuver it self not shield slam. The size restrictions thus limits it usefulness, based on campaign or AP. Those with lots of medium to large creatures but not any bigger will get a lot of use out of it. if the game as lots of huge and bigger creatures it will rarely get used.

[dwayne germaine]

Calling it a feat tax is a disservice to actual feat taxes like combat expertise or point blank shot.

It's a pretty strong feat when built around. I've witnessed a character mow through enemies with Shield Slam and Vicious Stomp. It's strong enough that the more I think about it the more certain I am that I'm going to include it in my next PFS character, and he will never get Shield Master due to it's BAB prerequisite.

[UnArcaneElection]

Even tankier Shield-Slamming Skirnir Magus build for you. Dwarves are awesome. Thanks to the posters above for the tip about Shield Master, but Shield Slam is definitely good as something to build around in its own right.

[Chris Kenney]

CBDunkerson wrote:

TarkXT wrote:

Youre not reading the feat.

It says you move with the target trading one of two actions.

It says nothing of move limitations outside of with target. You bash 15ft you move 15ft with the 5ft move you have available. If the action is not you dont.

Oh.

You use 15 of your available 5 feet of movement.

You're right. I wasn't reading it (that way).

Indeed, I'm still not.

Honestly, while it's badly worded his interpretation is closest to what the words on the page actually say. Breaking it down...

"You may choose to move with your target...": You can move as you have forced the target to move or not, your choice.

"...if you are able to take a 5-foot step...": You may exercise the prior option if you have a 5-foot step available.

"...or to spend an action to move this turn.": You may exercise the prior option if you can move (IE, the shield bash was not made as part of a full attack.)

Strictly speaking, you can even still take a 5-foot step or move after the movement from Shield Slam - you don't spend it, you just need to have it available.

I'm sure that's almost certainly not intended, by the way, but it is how it's worded. In PFS, I'd have probably allowed it to pass with the caveat of bringing it up to a VC. In my home games, I'd have to take the interpretation that you can move with the target by spending a 5' step, but go as far as the target does. But then, I'm a sucker for anything more interesting than "Hit the target over and over again with a big crit modifier."

[Devilkiller]

I kind of wonder if an attacker with Shield Slam and Pounce could full attack the target, bull rush it back, and keep moving with it performing more Shield Slams along the way to push the target back further and further. If so that might be pretty amusing.

[CBDunkerson]

Chris Kenney wrote:

Honestly, while it's badly worded his interpretation is closest to what the words on the page actually say. Breaking it down...

"You may choose to move with your target...": You can move as you have forced the target to move or not, your choice.

"...if you are able to take a 5-foot step...": You may exercise the prior option if you have a 5-foot step available.

"...or to spend an action to move this turn.": You may exercise the prior option if you can move (IE, the shield bash was not made as part of a full attack.)

Strictly speaking, you can even still take a 5-foot step or move after the movement from Shield Slam - you don't spend it, you just need to have it available.

I'm sure that's almost certainly not intended, by the way, but it is how it's worded.

That is not how words work.

They have no intrinsic 'meaning'... rather they are symbolic representations used in attempts to convey meaning between people. If you know that the meaning you are taking away from a set of words is "almost certainly not intended" then you are engaged in imagination rather than communication.

In any case, I refer you to the text of bull rush itself;

"You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so."

So no, merely having a 5' step or move action available does not allow you to move whatever distance your bull rush pushed the target... your movement in pursuit of the target is limited by the amount of movement you have available... because you are expending that movement. Ergo, if all you have available is a 5' step then you can only move 5'. If you have no move action or 5' step available (e.g. because you are making a full attack and already took a 5' step) then you cannot move at all.

[TarkXT]

Quote:

In any case, I refer you to the text of bull rush itself;

"You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so."

So no, merely having a 5' step or move action available does not allow you to move whatever distance your bull rush pushed the target... your movement in pursuit of the target is limited by the amount of movement you have available... because you are expending that movement. Ergo, if all you have available is a 5' step then you can only move 5'. If you have no move action or 5' step available (e.g. because you are making a full attack and already took a 5' step) then you cannot move at all.

Which, right or wrong, is incredibly boring and earns a frown from reenactors and HEMA enthusiasts everywhere. And ultimately not worth getting into these silly arguments over.

[UnArcaneElection]

Thread Necromancy time! Accurate Strike + Shield Slam + Greater Bull Rush + Combat Reflexes = Shield Slams that are really dangerous for your enemies!

[Moonclanger]

I see that the Come And Get Me combo has been mentioned. An effective combo for the Unchained Barbarian is Unexpected Strike and Shield Slam. For those who aren't familiar with it here's the Unchained Unexpected Strike:

"Unexpected Strike (Ex): The barbarian can make an attack of opportunity against a foe that moves into any square threatened by the barbarian, regardless of whether that movement would normally provoke an attack of opportunity. The barbarian can use this ability only when there are no other foes in a square threatened by the barbarian. A barbarian must be at least 8th level to select this rage power."

So you use Shield Slam to keep your threatened squares clear between turns, which with Combat Reflexes (or Quick Reflexes) allows for multiple uses of Unexpected Strike in one round. (The CRB version can only be used once per rage.)

That said I personally prefer to use a two-handed weapon and Pushing Assault with this tactic.

[*Khan*]

Shield brace to use a reach weapon together with your shield.
Slam opponent 5 ft. out and hit with the reach weapon.
But do you wield the reach weapon one handed or two handed this way?

[VoodistMonk]

To my knowledge, you are still considered to wield the spear or polearm in two hands when using Shield Brace. You are not TWF with a shield and lance. You get the full benefits of power attack with the fauchard or whatever you choose to use with Shield Brace.

Shield Slam is awesome with Spiked Destroyer for the extra armor spike attack with abull rush.

[avr]

PFS's ruling is that your shield-braced polearm is treated as 1H for strength and power attack. The rules are unclear and your GM elsewhere might rule either way.

[*Khan*]

avr wrote:

PFS's ruling is that your shield-braced polearm is treated as 1H for strength and power attack. The rules are unclear and your GM elsewhere might rule either way.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Volkard Abendroth]

BadBird wrote:

Shield Slam means that you need zero investment in Bull Rush (because it wouldn't help anyways)

If only Greater Bull Rush + Paired Opportunist were not around.

[Volkard Abendroth]

avr wrote:

PFS's ruling is that your shield-braced polearm is treated as 1H for strength and power attack. The rules are unclear and your GM elsewhere might rule either way.

Yep.

To get full 2-hand bonuses you need Unhindering Shield.

Add in Upsetting Shield Style if you want to shield bash.

[UnArcaneElection]

Actually, investing in Improved Bull Rush when you have Shield Slam is only moderately redundant, because the +2 bonus is still good, and because it is needed for Greater Bull Rush, which not only gives another +2 bonus (that you are probably really going to want anyway), but also lets you cause your target to get sliced and diced if you punt them through spaces threatened by your allies, as long as they have Attacks of Opportunity remaining.

[VoodistMonk]

Greater Bull Rush and Sliding Dash seem to be made for each other. Slide through their square, bash them back towards your friends.

[DthKnell]

VoodistMonk wrote:

Greater Bull Rush and Sliding Dash seem to be made for each other. Slide through their square, bash them back towards your friends.

Yeah, if only Sliding Dash wasn't so damn hard to succeed. I mean, 10+CMD can get very high, very quickly. I don't think this trick will work very often against BBEG.

[Volkard Abendroth]

DthKnell wrote:

VoodistMonk wrote:

Greater Bull Rush and Sliding Dash seem to be made for each other. Slide through their square, bash them back towards your friends.

Yeah, if only Sliding Dash wasn't so damn hard to succeed. I mean, 10+CMD can get very high, very quickly. I don't think this trick will work very often against BBEG.

Does not have to. Divide and conquer is still a valid strategy.

Separate the BBEG from his support and he's much easier to take down.

And then there are all the encounters you have on the way towards the BBEG.