how about a Scaled Fist Dragon Disciple?


Advice


can you tell I really like the Scaled Fist archetype for UMonks?

Race: Draconic Heritage Human
Class: Scaled Fist UMonk 1/Draconic Sorcerer 4/Dragon Disciple 6
Abilities (20-pt buy) Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
Traits: Blood of Dragons (+2 saves vs. sleep and paralysis), Fury of the Red
Feats:
H: ??? Weapon Focus (unarmed)?
1: Favored Prestige Class (dragon disciple)
Monk Bonus: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Dodge
3: Dragon Style
5: Dragon Ferocity
7: Prestigious Spellcaster
9: Dragon Roar
11: Prestigious Spellcaster

Lessee...
10th-level sorcerer (1 off from full), +7 BaB (1 off from 3/4), flurry of blows with a high Strength mod + Dragon Style, + oodles of dragon bloodline goodies (3 bloodline feats I didn't even bother to pick).

So, this is decent. Can it be made better?


I'd suggest more Unchained Monk levels and less Sorcerer levels actually. Unless you're going for the "caster with melee backup potential" instead of "melee with caster backup potential." Both have their pros and cons.


Well, see, that's the rub: trying to pull off both. Let's say that the 3 bloodline feats are Improved Initiative, Power Attack, and Toughness.

A Monk1/Sorc4 has a BaB of +3
A Monk3/Sorc2 has a BaB of +4

Is +1 to BaB (plus other goodies, granted, an extra monk feat, evasion, +10ft movement) worth the -2 spellcaster levels?

Put it another way: could a Monk1/Sorc4 stand on the front lines and contribute as a primary melee character?

I think the Prestigious Spellcaster feat really nails the cake here: now you don't have to give up so much spellcasting to be a good dragon disciple, because no other prestige class gains so much from losing spellcasting levels.

Sovereign Court

I also enjoyed Legacy of Dragons and made a Scaled Fist dragon disciple for PFS.

Best thing about Scaled Fist is Dragon Style at level 1, you can get Dodge anytime.

With so much spellcasting available, you might want to look into a metamagic feat.

My lvl 8 build:
LN Unchained Monk(Scaled Fist) 2 / Sorcerer(Crossblooded Arcane/Draconic [Imperial, Sovereign]) 4 / Dragon Disciple 2
Half-Elf (Dragon Soul: humanoid(elf), dragon)
Quan Tai
STR 14 (+2 @4/8) (+2 DD) (+2 Belt) = 20
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 9
CHA 16 + 2 (+2 headband) = 20
Hp: 54 (11+7 + 20 + 16)
AC(w/mage armor): 19 t: 15 ff: 18
Fort: +6 Ref: +6 Will: +3 (+2 vs. fear, sleep, paralysis)

BAB: +5 CMB: +9 CMD: 24
Flurry: +7/+7 ( 1d6+8/6 )
Claws: +10/+10 ( 1d6+6 ), Bite: +9 ( 1d6+6)

Traits: Magical Knack (Sorcerer), Omen( 1/day swift action demoralize)
Feats:
1. Enforcer
B. Dragon Style ( 1.5 + 0.5 Str on first unarmed attack, charge over difficult terrain)
M: Improved Unarmed Strike
3: Weapon Focus ( claws )
B. Intimidating Prowess (add Str to Intimidate)
5. Dragon Ferocity ( all unarmed attacks 1.5 Str, shaken on crit, Stunning Fist)
7. Feral Combat Training
Bl: Improved Initiative
9. Bloodline Manifestation (immune to fear when claws out)
11. Piercing Spell
Bl: Iron Will

Skills (28 ranks + 2 FCB):
Acrobatics 11 ( 7 ranks, 3 class, 1 Dex )
Intimidate 20 ( 8 ranks, 3 class, 4 Cha, 4 Str, 1 trait )
Know(arcana) 9 ( 5 ranks, 3 class, 1 Int )
Perception 12 ( 8 ranks, 3 class, -1 Wis, 2 race )
Spellcraft 5 ( 1 rank, 3 class, 1 Int )
Use Magic Device 8 ( 1 rank, 3 class, 4 Cha )

Spells (CL 8):
1- mage armor*, chill touch, ear-piercing scream, true strike,
2- invisibility*, mirror image, scorching ray

Class Abilities:
AC Bonus (equal to Cha), Evasion, Flurry of Blows,
Stunning Fist 3/day DC 18
Bloodline Claws (9 rds/day claws 1d6 + Str)
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond. Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known
Bloodline Arcana ( Draconic [Imperial, Sovereign] ): Whenever you cast a spell that affects a creature with the shaken, frightened, or panicked condition, increase the spell’s save DC by 1.
Bloodline Arcana( Arcane ): Whenever you apply a metamagic feat to a spell that increases the slot used by at least one level, increase the spell's DC by +1. This bonus does not stack with itself and does not apply to spells modified by the Heighten Spell feat.


oo~ooh, that's pretty neat. For my build I'd probably yoink Enforcer and an Imperial dragon bloodline arcana. That's an impressive synergy right there.

yeah, I'm really not into claws/Feral Combat Training with a DD. FCT is an amazing feat with the right build, but I hate to turn into something 'x/day'.

Huh, if I went with Eldritch Scrapper, I could ditch the claws (I'd rather be punching), the breath weapon (which the prestige class gives back), and the wings (ditto). Dragon Style + Arcane Strike + martial flexibility ::rrrowwwrr:: Well, that's certainly worth considering, although I'm not sure if I'd get the 9th and 15th level powers at all without being a Sorc9 or a Sorc15


I think Arcane Anthology gave you some Generic bloodline powers called bloodline mutations that you could swap out Sorcerer powers you didn't like with. Maybe see if some of those would fit your character?


Going Scaled Fist 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Disciple pays-off for melee once you hit level 3 spells and can easily buff with Heroism. Using Monstrous Physique to turn into a Gargoyle is also very nice.

One Dragon Disciple trick to consider:

Bloodline: Crossblooded Draconic/Elemental(Cold). Trait:Wayang Spellhunter: Fiery Shuriken. Metamagic Feat: Rime Spell. Feat: Opening Volley.

You can cast the spell Fiery Shuriken as a (Cold) spell, attaching Rime spell to it to cause entangled with no save; the round you cast it, you fire shuriken at a couple targets you want to debuff. Then you attack one of those targets; entangled means their AC is down by 2, and Opening Volley means you've got a +4 attack. After that attack, you swift-action fire another shuriken...

Silver Crusade

BadBird wrote:


One Dragon Disciple trick to consider:

Bloodline: Crossblooded Draconic/Elemental(Cold). Trait:Wayang Spellhunter: Fiery Shuriken. Metamagic Feat: Rime Spell. Feat: Opening Volley.

You can cast the spell Fiery Shuriken as a (Cold) spell, attaching Rime spell to it to cause entangled with no save; the round you cast it, you fire shuriken at a couple targets you want to debuff. Then you attack one of those targets; entangled means their AC is down by 2, and Opening Volley means you've got a +4 attack. After that attack, you swift-action fire another shuriken...

That combo looks fun BadBird but how do you get around the full round casting time of the spell in the first round? The whole Sorcerer and metamagic thing.


Grom Kranock wrote:
BadBird wrote:


One Dragon Disciple trick to consider:

Bloodline: Crossblooded Draconic/Elemental(Cold). Trait:Wayang Spellhunter: Fiery Shuriken. Metamagic Feat: Rime Spell. Feat: Opening Volley.

You can cast the spell Fiery Shuriken as a (Cold) spell, attaching Rime spell to it to cause entangled with no save; the round you cast it, you fire shuriken at a couple targets you want to debuff. Then you attack one of those targets; entangled means their AC is down by 2, and Opening Volley means you've got a +4 attack. After that attack, you swift-action fire another shuriken...

That combo looks fun BadBird but how do you get around the full round casting time of the spell in the first round? The whole Sorcerer and metamagic thing.

You'd need Spontaneous Metafocus. Of course, you can just accept that it's a full-round action (which thankfully isn't the same as it being a 1-round casting time).

ohako wrote:

yeah, I'm really not into claws/Feral Combat Training with a DD. FCT is an amazing feat with the right build, but I hate to turn into something 'x/day'.

Huh, if I went with Eldritch Scrapper, I could ditch the claws (I'd rather be punching), the breath weapon (which the prestige class gives back), and the wings (ditto). Dragon Style + Arcane Strike + martial flexibility ::rrrowwwrr:: Well, that's certainly worth considering, although I'm not sure if I'd get the 9th and 15th level powers at all without being a Sorc9 or a Sorc15

The Bloodline Mutations are rather nice options, especially the first one that's +1/die damage.

Using Crossblooded opens up possible alternative powers; with Crossblooded Dragon and Fey, you could pick up the Laughing Touch power and then take Sorcerous Strike: Laughing Touch, which is a pretty awesome ability. Fey also gives you one of the strongest Arcana out there; +2DC to all Enchantment(Compulsion) spells will let you throw things like Hideous Laughter as if you had much better charisma; with Magical Lineage and Persistent Spell, you could turn a lower-level enchantment into an incredibly-hard-to-resist go-to control spell to compliment your melee power. The -2 Will isn't that bad when you're using two classes that have high Will saves.

Varisian (AKA Tattooed) Sorcerer has a nice bonus with the free Varisian Tattoo and a familiar that you can just permanently merge with to make use of its bonus (like +1AC from turtle or bonus initiative from scorpion).

Something to consider as well - unarmed strikes, even with Dragon Style, are generally just worse than flurrying a Monk weapon like a temple sword in two hands. With a weapon, you get 1.5xSTR, two-handed Power Attack, better damage dice and better critical hits - and a weapon is much cheaper to enhance than unarmed strike.

If you do focus on unarmed strikes, note that you can easily also wield a longspear at the same time; you can make reach standard attacks and reach AoO's with the longspear in two hands and still be free to dish-out a beating with Flurry and fists (think of it as punching with your fists gripping the spear-haft). Very flexible combat style, and very cool flavor (in my opinion anyhow).

Dual-Talent Human or Kindred-Raised Half-Elf will grant you +2 to both STR and CHA, which is pretty great for your build. Going with 14+2 CHA and Crossblooded Dragon/Fey could get you 6+/day Laughing Touch Sorcerous Strikes, and the ability to cast many Enchantment spells as if you had at least 20CHA.

Sovereign Court

I haven't done the math, but my gut feeling is that with the higher costs of an Amulet of Mighty Fists compared to weapons, unarmed strikes can only keep up with weapons if you use Pummeling Style.

I don't think the "magic fists" ki effects scale up sufficiently fast that you can reliably penetrate level-appropriate DR with them.


I have done the math and for a dip monk, weapon is always greater than unarmed, because a D6 unarmed strike can't compare with say a sansetsukon D10 19-20/x2


Okay, let's re-iterate, this time optimizing for damage goodies, rather than ephemerals or one-spell ponies (much as I love acid + grease + Dazing Spell, or the flaming shuriken combo mentioned above). I'm sure this can be optimized further by spell selection, better traits, or by selecting a dragon energy type other than fire.

Race: Draconic Heritage Human
Class: Scaled Fist UMonk 1/Draconic Sorcerer 4 (Red Dragon)/Dragon Disciple 6
Abilities (20-pt buy) Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
Traits: Arcane Temper, Fury of the Red
Bloodline Arcana: mutation: blood havoc
Feats
H: Weapon Focus (temple sword) (all of the high-damage monk weapons look kooky, I guess the temple sword is the least kooky)
1M: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Dodge
1: Favored Prestige Class (dragon disciple, choosing Perception)
3: Arcane Strike (getting to +3 by level 11)
5: Spell Focus (evocation) (for the occasional 4d6+8 scorching ray, also if you have blood havoc and no bloodline damaging spells, Spell Focus (evocation) seems an obvious choice)
7: Prestigious Spellcaster
7B: Power Attack
8B: Improved Initiative
9: Spell Penetration (or Varisian Tattoo (evocation), haven't decided)
10B: Toughness
11: Prestigious Spellcaster

How's that?


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ohako wrote:
(all of the high-damage monk weapons look kooky, I guess the temple sword is the least kooky)

I dunno, I rather like the 9-ring. It's a classic kung-fu broadsword style, and the decorative elements don't stop it from looking like a serious sword. Something about it looks "draconic" to me...

Classic 9-Ring pic

I don't believe you get the Sorcerer bonus feats connected to your bloodline; Dragon Disciple and Blood of Dragons grants you the Powers as if you were going up levels in Sorcerer, but not the feats.

I've been thinking about a possible Scaled Fist/ Disciple, but I'd probably go with Dual Talent Human or Kindred Raised Half-Elf or Angel-Blooded Aasimar and really pump-up CHA - something like 15/17STR, 12DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 9WIS, 15/17CHA. High CHA is good for so many things, including Stunning Fist and spell DC. Sorcerer and Dragon Disciple are both high Will Save classes and you're obviously going to be using Heroism, so saves shouldn't be a problem. If you can spare the trait, Irrepressible grants CHA instead of WIS to many of the most dangerous Will saves. If you can spare the feat, Noble Scion: of War grants CHA instead of DEX to initiative rolls.

Personally, what got me looking at a possible new Dragon Disciple (other than how perfect Scaled Fist is) is the Esoteric Dragon variant to Draconic Bloodline that lets you pick up Psychic spells - such as,

Ill Omen: level 1 no-save spell that forces multiple rerolls; consider what Quickened Ill Omen could do, even maybe as a level 4 spell with a metamagic trait...

Mental Barrier: put up a shield bonus up to +8AC with an immediate action when you really need it.

Ego Whip: inflicts stagger, and can damage WIS to drop Will save. I was musing on Crossblooded Draconic(Astral)/Fey to get the +2DC to all Enchantment(Compulsion) spells...

Plus Fey grants the Laughing Touch power - good to have as a touch, but you can also take Sorcerous Strike to apply it with an unarmed strike.

Anyhow, just some suggestions and musings. What you've got looks fine.


I feel like a sansetsukon could be a good flavor for a dragon's tail attack.


BadBird wrote:
I don't believe you get the Sorcerer bonus feats connected to your bloodline; Dragon Disciple and Blood of Dragons grants you the Powers as if you were going up levels in Sorcerer, but not the feats.
Core Rulebook wrote:
Blood of Dragons: A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.

If Blood of Dragons only stacked with sorcerer levels viz a viz abilities called 'bloodline powers', then why does it also reference bonus spells?

You know what's neat? A Sor4/DD1 is still only a 4th level caster, but (s)he does get the 5th level bloodline spell from the draconic bloodline (ehh, resist energy?). Sure it's not an extra spellcaster level, but it does mean you get your bonus spells 'early'.


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He's right. You don't get the feats from Blood of the Dragon. You do, however, get them from the Dragon Disciple class feature called Bloodline Feats.


huh. you learn something every day. There's an oblique mention of what Blood of Dragons does in the Core Rulebook FAQ. Oh well, one less bloodline feat, I'd probably live without Improved Initiative.

@BadBird that is a nice looking sword. I'd be worried about a stealth penalty if I had it unsheathed tho...


Why not

2x paladin
2x Scaled Fist
1x Sorc

then DDisciple X

smite, lay on hand, divine grace, 2x monk feat (dragon style!)

You lost spellcaster levels... but i think that ddisciple is more a melee monter that use some buff than a real spellcaster


Dropping spell levels means all the great buffing spells get pushed way back, though, along with all the other tricks you can pull with Bloodline and casting. Level 2 Smite and Lay on Hands are pretty weak.

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