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Ultimate combat. Kinda poorly written in light of the books that have come out since, though certainly adequate for when it was written. Basically says you can select any bird of prey "even a vulture" but then goes on to suggest that you have to select the bird companion from the CRB.
So now there is an actual Vulture companion (Bestiary 3). There's also a Raven companion option (Hell's Rebels book 1).
Mainly, wanting to know if I can use a Raven, not because it's better, but because the model I own is a raven, not another bird. A reskin would be the easiest option, but since the Raven is PFS legal, I don't think I can do that.
Ravens aren't exactly birds of prey.
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Ravens aren't exactly birds of prey.
Neither is a Vulture, their both scavengers, but it's listed as an example.
Okay, on a medium which I can quote and link things:
Feathered Companion (Ex): At 1st level, a falconer earns the trust and companionship of a bird of prey. The bird can be of any type of large hunting or scavenging bird (even a vulture). This ability functions like the druid animal companion ability (which is part of the nature bond class feature), but the falconer must take the bird animal companion, and that companion has only half the normal hit points.
First line says bird of prey, second line says hunting or scavenging bird, and third line says "must take the bird animal companion."
Seems reasonable that I'm a bit confused with this one. Full details on the archetype are here. And again, I think this one was written when the only bird companion option was the Bird, so there was no issue reskinning one bird as another.
And again, if PFS wasn't so anal about using one thing to count as another, I wouldn't even dispute it. The model I have and like is a raven, which has PFS legal rules, so I'm unable to just use the Bird Companion profile to represent my Raven in PFS (At least, that's how I read it, I'd love to be wrong here).
As long as the stats are those of a "bird", you could call it a flamingo if you wanted.
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The companion can be any type of reasonable avian. But regardless of what species it is, it has the stats of the "bird" druid animal companion.
You do understand the question, right? In PFS there are actual rules against using one animal to represent another, provided there are actual rules for both versions. So, for PFS, I can't normally select a bird companion to appear as a Vulture, because there is an actual Vulture companion option.
I totally agree that for non-PFS play, I could represent any bird with this class, no issues at all.
So my question is if, for PFS, this Class Archetype grants special exception for using a Vulture or Raven (or other specific bird) with the rules for Bird companion in the CRB?
The companion can be any type of reasonable avian. But regardless of what species it is, it has the stats of the "bird" druid animal companion.You do understand the question, right? In PFS there are actual rules against using one animal to represent another, provided there are actual rules for both versions. So, for PFS, I can't normally select a bird companion to appear as a Vulture, because there is an actual Vulture companion option.
I totally agree that for non-PFS play, I could represent any bird with this class, no issues at all.
So my question is if, for PFS, this Class Archetype grants special exception for using a Vulture or Raven (or other specific bird) with the rules for Bird companion in the CRB?
The answer seems to be pretty much... no.
Falconry really doesn't work if your bird doesn't have the grasping talons of a vulture, eagle, or other bird of prey. That's what a reasonable avian is for this archetype. PFS does allow you to take any bird of prey and use the Vulture/Eagle stats. You can't do this with the Raven because the Raven does not have the physical equipment i.e. the talons of a bird of prey. Ravens are simply not hunting birds.
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Yes, I'm aware of that. That's why I said "reasonable avian".
In this case, reasonable avian is "any type of large hunting or scavenging bird".
So sure, break open your nature encyclopedia or wikipedia, and grab something appropriate. As long as you pick a bird that meets the above criteria, you are correctly fulfilling the requirements of the power. You are not substituting one animal for another, as the power specifically allows you to choose.
Now there might be some table variation if you go for a particularly small bird of pray, since it does say "large" (relative to other birds, not the game term), but honestly, it really shouldn't matter if you need to temporarily change the name for that one uptight GM, since there are no mechanical differences derived from what you call it.
Size-wise, the Ravens start as equal size to the Bird Companion in the CRB, but at 4th, they become medium, while the CRB ones remain small. So if size is your measure, the Raven is more approiate than the Bird Companion.
As an aside, I keep calling it a Raven Companion, which is what it calls itself, but the actual monster Entry it is part of calls it a "Giant Raven." I didn't think size was the point of contention for this thread, so I didn't mention it before.
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I think you'd be hard pressed to find a GM, PFS or otherwise, who'd object to that.
Just don't try to have your bird do anything raven-like which a hawk couldn't also do.
Hmmm...sounds like I overthought this one. Thanks. A very simple solution.
Drawing a blank on the raven-like actions, but your point is well taken.
PFS won't let you skin one animal into another but the example in the faq is "Big cat" that cat can be a lion a tiger a panther leopard, jaguar, black panthar, snow leopard, etc.
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PFS won't let you skin one animal into another but the example in the faq is "Big cat" that cat can be a lion a tiger a panther leopard, jaguar, black panthar, snow leopard, etc.
Why didn't you chime in earlier? That is my understanding and why the question was posed.
The issue here is that the Falconer archetype specifically mentions you can have the animal be a vulture (or pretty much any other bird), but you have to use the Bird Companion option from the CRB. And Vultures have their own companion option, so I'm kinda unclear about the intention regarding PFS and this archetype.
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The ability also specifically calls out using the bird AC from the Druid list. Since they did not errata it to say use the Bird or Vulture option, then you must use the Bird AC. The first line to that ability is flavor and fluff, the 3rd line is the actual rules as it is saysPFS won't let you skin one animal into another but the example in the faq is "Big cat" that cat can be a lion a tiger a panther leopard, jaguar, black panthar, snow leopard, etc.
Why didn't you chime in earlier? That is my understanding and why the question was posed.
The issue here is that the Falconer archetype specifically mentions you can have the animal be a vulture (or pretty much any other bird), but you have to use the Bird Companion option from the CRB. And Vultures have their own companion option, so I'm kinda unclear about the intention regarding PFS and this archetype.
the Falconer must take the bird animal companion.
Sorry but no Raven reskin here.
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The ability also specifically calls out using the bird AC from the Druid list. Since they did not errata it to say use the Bird or Vulture option, then you must use the Bird AC. The first line to that ability is flavor and fluff, the 3rd line is the actual rules as it is saysPFS won't let you skin one animal into another but the example in the faq is "Big cat" that cat can be a lion a tiger a panther leopard, jaguar, black panthar, snow leopard, etc.
Why didn't you chime in earlier? That is my understanding and why the question was posed.
The issue here is that the Falconer archetype specifically mentions you can have the animal be a vulture (or pretty much any other bird), but you have to use the Bird Companion option from the CRB. And Vultures have their own companion option, so I'm kinda unclear about the intention regarding PFS and this archetype.
the Falconer must take the bird animal companion.Sorry but no Raven reskin here.
But, sake of arguement, a Vulture reskin would be fine? Or is that also banned?
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Why didn't you chime in earlier? That is my understanding and why the question was posed.
While i do spend an inordinate amount of time here i don't see EVERY post.
Can I re-skin or re-flavor an animal companion or item?
You may choose a specific type of animal companion from any of the base forms listed on pages 53–54 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook or a legal Additional Resource but may not use stats for one base form with the flavor of another type of animal. Thus, a small cat could be a cheetah or leopard, as suggested, as well as a lynx, bobcat, puma, or other similar animal; it could not, however, be "re-skinned" to be a giant hairless swamp rat or a differently-statted wolf. If a GM feels that a re-skinning is inappropriate or could have mechanical implications in the specific adventure being played, he may require that the creature simply be considered its generic base form for the duration of the adventure. A player may not re-skin items to be something for which there are no specific rules, and any item a character uses for which there are no stats is considered an improvised weapon (see page 144 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook).
The issue here is that the Falconer archetype specifically mentions you can have the animal be a vulture (or pretty much any other bird), but you have to use the Bird Companion option from the CRB.
Feathered Companion (Ex): At 1st level, a falconer earns the trust and companionship of a bird of prey. The bird can be of any type of large hunting or scavenging bird (even a vulture). This ability functions like the druid animal companion ability (which is part of the nature bond class feature), but the falconer must take the bird animal companion, and that companion has only half the normal hit points.
That puts it in the same catagory as a cat: as long as the bird is both large (as in, omg that's a big bird, not the large size catagory) its legal, even if there are two ways to get a vulture with different stats.
You could make a pretty good argument that a raven is a large scavenging bird, as they're bigger than some owls and hawks.
for your bird you probably want to get them an agile amulet of mighty fists and up their dex and con at level 4 instead of strength and con
Instead of taking the listed benefit at 4th or 7th level, you can instead choose to increase the companion's Dexterity and Constitution by 2.
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So, BNW, you support the idea of using the Bird Companion stats to represent a Raven via this archetype?
And yea, with either the Raven or the Bird rules, my plan was to go for the +2 dex and +2 con for the 4th/7th companion option. Especially on the Raven, since they'd otherwise get a size increase, which means I need a new model....
Lol i let off a player in my current campaign with a roc companion, i don't think i'll bother with making him change
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Yes a "large bird" would fall under the same rules as a "big cat" as in you can skin it as any large bird within reason. Ex.= vulture, eagle, giant rave, big ass parrot, some made up magical finch. However the within reason hits when you start going "well penguins and flamingos are birds" while sure yes they are birds they clearly are not what is intended, but would serve no mechanical benifit and would be your gm's call.
What if it was a Miniature Giant Space Flamingo?
Hmmm...so you all think I could use the raven model I own, call it a raven in game, but then just use the profile for the Bird Companion from the CRB?
Sounds great to me, just didn't think I could due to PFS rules.
I don't. Simply because ravens do NOT have talons... they're pecking birds.
Maybe what you want is a familliar? There is an avenue for non-casters to get them now, and you'd have the complete package of a talking raven.
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So, BNW, you support the idea of using the Bird Companion stats to represent a Raven via this archetype?
And yea, with either the Raven or the Bird rules, my plan was to go for the +2 dex and +2 con for the 4th/7th companion option. Especially on the Raven, since they'd otherwise get a size increase, which means I need a new model....
I think you should be prepared for possible table variation. I have always been told it is not reskinning if the stats exist for it already. A big cat covers a lot of different large felines, but the Druid does not also have a specific Lion AC stat block. There is however a Raven and Vulture set of stats.
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I think you should be prepared for possible table variation. I have always been told it is not reskinning if the stats exist for it already. A big cat covers a lot of different large felines, but the Druid does not also have a specific Lion AC stat block. There is however a Raven and Vulture set of stats.So, BNW, you support the idea of using the Bird Companion stats to represent a Raven via this archetype?
And yea, with either the Raven or the Bird rules, my plan was to go for the +2 dex and +2 con for the 4th/7th companion option. Especially on the Raven, since they'd otherwise get a size increase, which means I need a new model....
i don't think everyones lion animal companions would be invalidated if paizo came out with a lion animal companion.
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Hmmm...so you all think I could use the raven model I own, call it a raven in game, but then just use the profile for the Bird Companion from the CRB?
Sounds great to me, just didn't think I could due to PFS rules.
I don't. Simply because ravens do NOT have talons... they're pecking birds.
Maybe what you want is a familliar? There is an avenue for non-casters to get them now, and you'd have the complete package of a talking raven.
It's true, could do a familiar. Could also do a Druid, for the raven companion.
Just seems kinda off that this class archetype can't do the raven, despite obviously being intended to represent any type of bird training ranger. And I haven't seen anything in this class that wouldn't fit with the raven companion option. And they are definitely a trainable bird. And it's not like the issue here is that the raven would break the class into something broken.
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i don't think everyones lion animal companions would be invalidated if paizo came out with a lion animal companion.
And that is certainly a concern of mine.
Really, the only thing invalidating this option, from a rules stance, is that they later released a more specific bird companion for ravens....
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i don't think everyones lion animal companions would be invalidated if paizo came out with a lion animal companion.And that is certainly a concern of mine.
Really, the only thing invalidating this option, from a rules stance, is that they later released a more specific bird companion for ravens....
It seems this archetype would have been a good candidate for an errata to add the new bird companion options.
BNW, you are right, but the fact is they are not likely to release a Lion AC stat block because they count it as covered by Big Cat. Clearly though, they felt Raven and Vulture needed their own stats.
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It seems this archetype would have been a good candidate for an errata to add the new bird companion options.
BNW, you are right, but the fact is they are not likely to release a Lion AC stat block because they count it as covered by Big Cat. Clearly though, they felt Raven and Vulture needed their own stats.
Vulture makes sense and is Bestiary 3, but the [Giant] Raven is actually from an Adventure Path (Hell's Rebels). I think they made the raven companion option more for theme of that adventure path, than because they thought we needed a specific companion option for ravens. Though that is speculation on my end.
If an adventure path is released with a Lion Companion, perhaps just for theme of a specic character in the setting, it does seem like the current PFS stance would invalidate all previous lion chracters (and make the Lion Shaman archetype very iffy).
i don't think everyones lion animal companions would be invalidated if paizo came out with a lion animal companion.And that is certainly a concern of mine.
Really, the only thing invalidating this option, from a rules stance, is that they later released a more specific bird companion for ravens....
It seems this archetype would have been a good candidate for an errata to add the new bird companion options.
BNW, you are right, but the fact is they are not likely to release a Lion AC stat block because they count it as covered by Big Cat. Clearly though, they felt Raven and Vulture needed their own stats.
There isn't a [raven animal companion] as far as I know.
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There isn't a [raven animal companion] as far as I know.i don't think everyones lion animal companions would be invalidated if paizo came out with a lion animal companion.And that is certainly a concern of mine.
Really, the only thing invalidating this option, from a rules stance, is that they later released a more specific bird companion for ravens....
It seems this archetype would have been a good candidate for an errata to add the new bird companion options.
BNW, you are right, but the fact is they are not likely to release a Lion AC stat block because they count it as covered by Big Cat. Clearly though, they felt Raven and Vulture needed their own stats.
Giant Raven is an AC choice.
Giant Raven is an AC choice.
Doesn't matter. There's more than one way to reskin a big cat.
I realize this is an old topic, but I was reading up on the Falconer archetype and stumbled across it. A consensus seems to have been established in this discussion that the player could not choose a raven as their bird companion because it is not a "bird of prey." This is incorrect.
The book explicitly states that the bird may be either a bird of prey or a scavenger, and lists vultures as an example. Ravens are also scavengers, and would absolutely qualify as a large bird (again, not size category but rather large in comparison to other birds). There's no reason to state that you could not elect to have a raven animal companion using the Bird stats from the CRB.
in all of fantasy authors use Ravens as avatars of evil.
Wrong. In Tolkien's The Hobbit ravens are described as intelligent and wise creatures, befriended by the dwarfs of mount Erebor and used by them as messenger birds.
There are also, of course, Odin's ravens Huginn and Muninn.