that is light years BEYOND iffy, for an ability even the author said was poorly worded. Ask your dm before trying to build a character around it.
On a conceptual level, I like it; Ascetic Style is all about making the weapon a natural extension of one's body, so a spell that makes a creature's body more lethal ripples through their Ascetic weapon as well. Being able to tag things like Vine Strike, Strong Jaw, Bloody Claws and so-on onto a Monk/Druid's sword or staff is absolutely fantastic "Ascetic Monk-Druid" flavor!
'Iffy' is purely subjective here, considering that we're talking about conceptualizing what a rule does, rather than what the rules actually say. The author's commentary on Ascetic Style was that Ascetic Style feat shouldn't have had the "effects that augment an unarmed strike" text.
A GM is, of course, free to rule against anything they consider 'iffy' conceptually, even if it's the fact that they don't like the concept of a spellcasting character summoning a creature out of thin air, or a Bard performing while casting a spell. But...
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You guys think the Natural Spell is worth it to save on Wand of Barkskin and allow, mainly, Cheetah Sprint, as well as the occasional Spider Climb or Air Step or Ant Haul etc.Thanks, all.
With that few Druid levels you can probably afford to drop Natural spell. Also wands would not work while wild shaped.
"This feat does not permit the use of magic items while you are in a form that could not ordinarily use them, and you do not gain the ability to speak while using wild shape." From Natural spell.
Thank you, @the Diviner. We have a Ranger and a Sorcerer, so no worries about the Wands.
Yes, I concur. It seems like too much of a tax to push everything back.
Thanks for your help. If anyone has any further comments or ideas about the build, of course I'm all ears.
Happy New Year to all.
The Other
And here's another question, if you all are game.
How does the Bloodrager's Id Rager: Anger Strength Focus work? Does the Bloodrager gain Spiritualist Phantom abilities as they advance in level? Like would an Id Ranger: Anger Bloodrager get +1 Strength at Level 2? My guess is no, as this seems too powerful, along with the armor bonus.
No, you get the free power attack while raging AND the +2 str and -2 dex while raging.
Also your slams are treated as one size larger if you transform into something that has slam attacks.That's all you get until lv7 in the class.
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There's controversy over what the Ascetic Style feat lets you do
Well, at least half the "controversy" is about what people think the feat should do. RAW, and the author has confirmed it, stuff like using the monks unarmed damage instead of the weapon damage is without any doubt legal.
I've made a list of what Ascetic Style allows, feedback (in that thread) is appreciated.the creator of the feat is on record saying that the first feat in the chain should only affect the same things that Feral Combat Training does.
Actually wrong. I know the author said that, but both versions (#1 #2) of what he stated he wanted the feat to do go beyond what FCT allows.
@BigNorseWolf: Even the authors notes apparently said "feats and class abilities". The question is whether "is treated as (...) a natural weapon [blah]" counts as an effect that "augments" UAS because it itself doesn't really do anything. I think it might because Ascetic Style also says "as if attacks with the weapon were unarmed attacks", and the spells would definitely do something if the attacks were unarmed attacks.
The question is whether "is treated as (...) a natural weapon [blah]" counts as an effect that "augments" UAS because it itself doesn't really do anything.
That would be the question with regards to the Ascetic Style feat, though personally I operate on the assumption that we should just drop the 'effects that augment' part of that feat - or at least regard it as 'iffy'. The question here is about Ascetic Form, which as far as I can see is quite clear-cut.
, even if it's the fact that they don't like the concept
No.
Its not a matter of like. this is not a matter of not liking the rules, this is a matter of the rules being incredibly unclear, vague, and the logic behind them running over with multiple suppositions at every part of the chain.
ascetic style lets the monk unarmed strike in. That is different than letting in everything that monk unarmed strike lets in.
this is not a matter of not liking the rules, this is a matter of the rules being incredibly unclear, vague, and the logic behind them running over with multiple suppositions at every part of the chain.
If you have a particular objection to the logic I'm using to interpret Ascetic Form + Monk Unarmed Strike, by all means share it. As far as I can see it:
1. Monk Unarmed Strike is very obviously a 'class ability', both semantically, and by innumerable examples of what the rules refer to as a class ability.
2. Ascetic Form states "You can use the chosen melee weapon with any class ability that can be used with an unarmed strike". Monk Unarmed Strike fits this clause.
3. Therefore, using the Monk Unarmed Strike class ability with Ascetic Form grants the properties of the Monk Unarmed Strike class ability to an Ascetic weapon, as if it was an unarmed strike.
I'm sincerely interested in what objections someone might raise, since I'm just trying to parse the rules here.
I'm sincerely interested in what objections someone might raise, since I'm just trying to parse the rules here.
I have already listed two of them.
Monk unarmed strike is not something that works with monk unarmed strike, it IS monk unarmed strike.
Its not clear if the feat goes beyond direct application and to indirect application. If you're getting something on there indirectly the feat may not cover it.
They really should know this. They used this language in the past and it caused the same kerfuffle.
Thank you again all for the help.
What about Boon Companion at fifth level? With a party of three, I'm thinking it might be worth it.
Thank you again all for the help.
What about Boon Companion at fifth level? With a party of three, I'm thinking it might be worth it.
you're only getting 1 level of animal companion out of it from dipping monk 1? Probably not worth it.
Thanks, @BigNorseWolf. No, I'd get the four levels from it. The choices between the two builds would be:
With Boon Companion
1(Bloodrager 1): Improved Initiative
1(Bloodrager 1): Toughness
2:(Druid 1) BAB 1
3:(Druid 2) Extra Rage BAB 2
4:(Druid 3) BAB 3
5:(Druid 4) Boon Companion BAB 4
6:(Mutation Warrior 1) Weapon Focus: Claw BAB 5
7:(MoMS 1) Shaping Focus, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Dragon Style BAB 5
8:(Mutation Warrior 2) Feral Combat Training: Claw BAB 6
9:(MoMS 2) Planar Wild Shape, Dragon Ferocity BAB 7
10:(Mutation Warrior 3) BAB 8
11:(Mutation Warrior 4) Improved Critical, Combat Style Master BAB 9
12: (Mutation Warrior 5) BAB 10
Without Boon Companion
1(Bloodrager 1): Improved Initiative
1(Bloodrager 1): Toughness
2:(Druid 1) BAB 1
3:(Druid 2) Extra Rage BAB 2
4:(Druid 3) BAB 3
5:(Druid 4) Shaping Focus BAB 4
6:(MoMS 1): Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Dragon Style BAB 4
7:(Mutation Warrior 1) Weapon Focus: Claw, Feral Combat Training: Claw BAB 5
8:(MoMS 2) Dragon Ferocity BAB 6
9:(Mutation Warrior 2) Planar Wild Shape, Combat Style Master BAB 7
10:(Mutation Warrior 3) BAB 8
11:(Mutation Warrior 4) Mantis Style, Improved Critical BAB 9
12:(Mutation Warrior 4) BAB 10
I could also take Boon Companion instead of Mantis Style later in the second build, but I'm thinking having a solid Animal Companion for the middle levels will be worth pushing the other feats back in the first build. Thoughts?
For all four levels get that ASAP. Your critter will die in a stiff breeze otherwise. He's still going to be VERY weak past level 10 or so.
Yeah, you are right about that. It may be worth taking one more level of Druid later in the build just to get the companion to Level 9. I'll keep tweaking it.
But yes, I think the Animal Companion is strong enough to warrant pushing everything back a couple levels to have the Companion viable in the middle tier.
I'm sincerely interested in what objections someone might raise, since I'm just trying to parse the rules here.
I have already listed two of them.
Monk unarmed strike is not something that works with monk unarmed strike, it IS monk unarmed strike.
Its not clear if the feat goes beyond direct application and to indirect application. If you're getting something on there indirectly the feat may not cover it.
They really should know this. They used this language in the past and it caused the same kerfuffle.
Well, suffice to say that I quite disagree on both counts. I think the argument that "Monk Unarmed Strike" isn't a class ability of the Monk in the same way that any class ability listed for a class is a class ability of that class is a bit strange, to say the least. And I don't see anything ambiguous about "apply any class ability"; it's no different from Slashing Grace saying you can apply any class ability that usually works with one type of weapon to another.
When you say that they should know better, I would totally agree about Ascetic Style, which is why I ignore the 'augments an unarmed strike' text. However, the formula used in Ascetic Form is straightforward and has been used before - such as with Slashing Grace. Class abilities you can normally only use with X, this feat lets you now use with Y. Simple, direct transference.
Oh well, agree to disagree I guess; it's not like either of us has a dog in this fight. I was just genuinely surprised people took some kind of exception to using Ascetic Form in that way.
I think the argument that "Monk Unarmed Strike" isn't a class ability of the Monk in the same way that any class ability listed for a class is a class ability of that class is a bit strange, to say the least.
I am not making that argument.Re read what was written. Its been said every way it can be said.
And I don't see anything ambiguous about "apply any class ability"; it's no different from Slashing Grace saying you can apply any class ability that usually works with one type of weapon to another.
If you cut out the relevant part like that, yes. You're going to not see it.
While using this style and wielding the chosen weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike, as if attacks with the weapon were unarmed attacks.
The two problems there is that monk unarmed strike IS unarmed strike, it can't work with itself
and
Something that effects the way something that effects the way something worse worse may not apply to something that affects the way something works: you may have to allow the entire chain, not just be able to hotwire one connection directly: ie, it might require parallell circuitry and you only have it in series.
Oh well, agree to disagree I guess; it's not like either of us has a dog in this fight. I was just genuinely surprised people took some kind of exception to using Ascetic Form in that way.
Its not an exception to it, it's half confused dog headtilt and half headdesk with "here we go again"
I think the argument that "Monk Unarmed Strike" isn't a class ability of the Monk in the same way that any class ability listed for a class is a class ability of that class is a bit strange, to say the least.I am not making that argument.Re read what was written. Its been said every way it can be said.
I see what you're saying, but I think it's rather dubious. It seems perfectly obvious to me that Monk Unarmed Strike is a class ability that works with the normal unarmed strike a Monk, as any other creature, possesses. The text of the ability discusses the ways in which the ability improves and modifies typical unarmed strike; I would say that, by definition, this is the class ability 'working' with unarmed strikes. Among other things, if Monk Unarmed Strike wasn't 'working with' the Monk's natural unarmed strike, what would be the point of granting Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat when it's talking about a whole new type of attack?
Or put another way, if you have a level 1 Fighter and then you take a level of Monk, the Fighter isn't gaining a new, different unarmed strike attack that replaces his old one; his unarmed strike attack is now being modified by - or in other words "working with" - his new Monk Unarmed Strike class ability.
And I don't see anything ambiguous about "apply any class ability"; it's no different from Slashing Grace saying you can apply any class ability that usually works with one type of weapon to another.If you cut out the relevant part like that, yes. You're going to not see it.
While using this style and wielding the chosen weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike, as if attacks with the weapon were unarmed attacks.
I sincerely have no idea why you're bringing the Ascetic Style feat into this. You could throw out any benefit or effect of the Ascetic Style feat other than it allowing you to enter Ascetic Style, and you would still be able to apply Ascetic Form in a completely functional and straightforward way.
I would agree with you completely that the Ascetic Style feat is 'iffy' when it comes to invoking all kinds of assorted benefits; but Ascetic Form is quite succinct, and requires nothing from the previous feat other than being able to enter the style (if that; oh Paizo, get your 'while in X style' clauses straight, yeah?).
Oh well, agree to disagree I guess; it's not like either of us has a dog in this fight. I was just genuinely surprised people took some kind of exception to using Ascetic Form in that way.Its not an exception to it, it's half confused dog headtilt and half headdesk with "here we go again"
I have the same reaction to pejorative expressions like "here we go again". Please take that as non-hostile snarkyness...
I have the same reaction to pejorative expressions like "here we go again". Please take that as non-hostile snarkyness...
They used the exact same wording on feral combat training and it was such a mess that they had to reword it.
I have the same reaction to pejorative expressions like "here we go again". Please take that as non-hostile snarkyness...They used the exact same wording on feral combat training and it was such a mess that they had to reword it.
Indeed, the Ascetic Style feat itself is a freakin' mess of deja vu. Myself, I choose to read it as affecting nothing more than Improved Unarmed Strike feats.
personally I operate on the assumption that we should just drop the 'effects that augment' part of that feat - or at least regard it as 'iffy'.
Why, because the author said so? Author intend is completely, 100% irrelevant in Pathfinder, if the actual rules say otherwise. It was author intend for Sohei to not be able to flurry in armor, FAQ says otherwise. It was author intend for Invulnerable Rager to be able to take the Improved Damage Reduction rage power, FAQ says otherwise. Should we look up every single feat, spell, class feature, and item in case the author intended something different? What about the things taken from DnD, should we use the original version because they are what was intended, and ignore Paizo's reworks?
The feat exists as it is. Everything else is a houserule and should not be the base asumption. Especially since we have two different versions of stated author intend, and the author gets multiple things wrong.
If it had been printed in accordance with the author's notes, it would still work the same for everything except items (so, Brawling armor, Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes, and Amulet of Mighty Fist wouldn't work with it).
The question here is about Ascetic Form, which as far as I can see is quite clear-cut.
I consider "you can use the chosen melee weapon with any class ability that can be used with an unarmed strike," to mean stuff like "you can make an unarmed strike" (like the extra attack by spending ki) or "when making an unarmed strike" (like Ki Blocker). It might well be intend to only enable active things and not passive ones, so that the scaling damage wasn't enabled.
monk unarmed strike IS unarmed strike, it can't work with itself
The scaling damage, which is part of the class feature, does per FAQ, count as an effect that augments an unarmed strike. I do agree that "can be used with" doesn't include passive effects, but your argumentation is kinda weird.
They used the exact same wording on feral combat training and it was such a mess that they had to reword it.
Was is actually a mess? The only really problematic thing's I know about (I joined afterwards) was whether the scaling damage works with it (which was confirmed by FAQ), and that some idiots made up their own wording to make it work as a virtual size increase instead of working like Warpriest's Sacred Weapon.
I'm not sure if anybody mentioned it yet, but since the -2 Dex from wildshape is a penalty it wouldn't make you lose access to your Greater Grapple feat unless the penalty persisted for 24 hours.
I'd sometimes have my Monk/Druid wildshape into a Huge earth elemental who looked like a stone statue of himself and use his Monk's Robe to get his unarmed strike damage up to 3d6. A lot of new feats have come out in the years since then, so surely you could do better now.
I'm not sure if anybody mentioned it yet, but since the -2 Dex from wildshape is a penalty it wouldn't make you lose access to your Greater Grapple feat unless the penalty persisted for 24 hours.
No. there really isn't a different between a permanant and temporary ability score loss for physical stats.
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.
The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.
Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.
I don't think stats and rolls are quite the same as prerequisites for a feat though I'll admit I'm not quite sure what "stats" encompasses there (maybe stuff like hit points, AC, etc?). I don't think you'd lose or recalculate skill ranks though, and I don't think you'd lose feats either.
Anyhow, I don't think that a temporary ability penalty "actually reduces" your ability score.
PRD on ability damage: "Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability."
PRD on ability penalties: "Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1."
Compare these to what the PRD says regarding ability drain: "Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration."
If you're using the Goliath Druid or Mountain Druid archetypes to turn into a giant then the Monk level loses some of its charm since giants can wear armor. I guess there's also the Sohei archetype, which can flurry in light armor, always acts in the surprise round, and could maybe take a mounted combat feat or two for use with a really big animal companion (like Mammoth Rider for a giant who rides up on a dinosaur and smacks you with a tree)